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Combat is SR6?

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Lormyr

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« Reply #300 on: (13:13:52/08-29-19) »
Look at that, 5 scenarios where armor does literally nothing.

From my experience, they don't like to admit that scenario is possible, though. From the math I see I would personally even say commonly probable.

fougerec99

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« Reply #301 on: (13:16:01/08-29-19) »
Perhaps you don't like the counter-examples I posted there, so here's another: it's dark, only NN has enhanced vision, now he earns his full 2 Edge on his first attack and we're back to "he doesn't earn any Edge for his armour when he gets attacked."

For me it makes sense if I think of it less as "getting edge from his armor" and "getting edge from this situation at this time".  Usually he can get an advantage because of his armor, sometimes it's luck.  Sometimes it's because he can see in the dark and his opponents can't.  Sometimes it's because they brought a knife to a gun fight.

I don't think the Edge gain represents any single item or stat but the combined situation at that time.

fougerec99

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« Reply #302 on: (13:23:42/08-29-19) »
An issue that came up time and again in 5E for our group was having one super tanky armored up character where the rest of the team was more reasonable.  The disparity resulted in
a)  Enemy can damage the tank and will one shot kill everyone else
b)  Enemy won't one shot kill team members but also cannot damage the tank at all.

It looks like 6E addresses that issue.

dezmont

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« Reply #303 on: (13:32:32/08-29-19) »
An issue that came up time and again in 5E for our group was having one super tanky armored up character where the rest of the team was more reasonable.  The disparity resulted in
a)  Enemy can damage the tank and will one shot kill everyone else
b)  Enemy won't one shot kill team members but also cannot damage the tank at all.

It looks like 6E addresses that issue.

This is not actually a problem. The tank isn't taking tank 'ware so thry can take damage from harder enemies. The lore says this stuff makes you borderline immune to bullets, and it does so successfully.

SR isn't a game about grinding down HP pools, its an objective focused gams where automatically but slowly winning a fight isn't remotely useful. If your only tension in a run is 'will the runners die' its kinda a lame story with less dramatic tension than a given episode of Power Rangers.

The tanky samurai has the major downside that none of their abilities help anyone where they aren't in a game about splitting the team and coordinating to do different tasks in a heist, where EVERY other PC has extremely useful powers to use remotely like hacking, rigging, or sending spirits to assist someone.

Also SR6 kinda messed it up and made npc stats, even the best of the best, low enough that your average PC is now immune to damage anyway, the problem mmoved from soak, which was expensive, to defense, which is relatively cheap. Now any attack that can hit a pc with wired will instantly kill a PC without wired off net hits, and if they don't the attack can't hit the wired PC.
« Last Edit: (13:34:21/08-29-19) by dezmont »

Serbitar

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« Reply #304 on: (13:33:57/08-29-19) »

An issue that came up time and again in 5E for our group was having one super tanky armored up character where the rest of the team was more reasonable.  The disparity resulted in
a)  Enemy can damage the tank and will one shot kill everyone else
b)  Enemy won't one shot kill team members but also cannot damage the tank at all.

It looks like 6E addresses that issue.

6e adresses this by making everything the same.


You describe a scenario where one character paid resources to gain a meaningfull advantage. Whats wrong with that?

Seems more like your GM was not capable of dealing with that. SR is not D&D where everybody has to be equaly viable in combat. There are various fields of action that have to be handled as well.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #305 on: (13:35:15/08-29-19) »
An issue that came up time and again in 5E for our group was having one super tanky armored up character where the rest of the team was more reasonable.  The disparity resulted in
a)  Enemy can damage the tank and will one shot kill everyone else
b)  Enemy won't one shot kill team members but also cannot damage the tank at all.

It looks like 6E addresses that issue.
And Milspec will likely offer some tanking. And spirits may be nerfed. But we'll see when that comes out.
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penllawen

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« Reply #306 on: (13:48:05/08-29-19) »
And spirits may be nerfed.
Where may spirits be nerfed? In errata?

dezmont

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« Reply #307 on: (13:54:46/08-29-19) »
Almost certainly. Spirits were comparatively too tough compared to samurai before samurai lost their armor while spirits stayed exactly the same. It would be loony toons for them to not remove spirit armor when sams already are arguably the worst archetype in the edition.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #308 on: (15:21:19/08-29-19) »
An issue that came up time and again in 5E for our group was having one super tanky armored up character where the rest of the team was more reasonable.  The disparity resulted in
a)  Enemy can damage the tank and will one shot kill everyone else
b)  Enemy won't one shot kill team members but also cannot damage the tank at all.

It looks like 6E addresses that issue.
Yeah, by making it impossible to tank. Even if milspec does provide actual tanking abilities, it's milspec. You can't wear that everywhere. You can't even wear it most places. And there are ways to deal with this "problem" that don't involve changing any rules:
  • have some dangerous, high stakes challenges that aren't just combat
  • have some enemies that can damage the tank mixed in with normal enemies and have them prioritize the tank
  • inform the players during legwork that all of the enemies will be capable of hurting the tank, and watch as they develop a plan that involves avoiding those enemies
  • introduce scenarios where it would beneficial for the tank to solo a combat while the rest of the team runs off to do something important
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Typhus

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« Reply #309 on: (15:58:47/08-29-19) »
An issue that came up time and again in 5E for our group was having one super tanky armored up character where the rest of the team was more reasonable.  The disparity resulted in
a)  Enemy can damage the tank and will one shot kill everyone else
b)  Enemy won't one shot kill team members but also cannot damage the tank at all.

It looks like 6E addresses that issue.
Yeah, by making it impossible to tank. Even if milspec does provide actual tanking abilities, it's milspec. You can't wear that everywhere. You can't even wear it most places. And there are ways to deal with this "problem" that don't involve changing any rules:
  • have some dangerous, high stakes challenges that aren't just combat
  • have some enemies that can damage the tank mixed in with normal enemies and have them prioritize the tank
  • inform the players during legwork that all of the enemies will be capable of hurting the tank, and watch as they develop a plan that involves avoiding those enemies
  • introduce scenarios where it would beneficial for the tank to solo a combat while the rest of the team runs off to do something important

The main issue really underlying this is that 5E didn't constrain dice pools at the upper end, and allows infinite stacking. 

You fix that by going with Bounded Accuracy.  You limit the upper end of the dice pools and you don't have 50 dice super tanks even possible from the gate.  As a GM, I hosed down the most buff troll my table could create with an SMG at short range back in 3rd Edition: Serious wounds (minus 1 from Trauma Damper, but still).  Any edition that can have a damage immune tank has gone sideways.  Also, any time you have more d6 in hand than a 36 dice cube, your system has gone off the rails.  Allowing the possibility was the original problem, nerfing it down to impossible levels is a bad fix to the same self-created problem.  It's an over-reaction to an underdone rule.  Plus, it's an underdone mechanic on it's own.  It's the number one thing players are complaining about, meaning it's not a satisfying concept to the baseline game.

Likewise, scaling of modifiers also fixes the modifier bloat issue.  Conditions don't need infinite linear modifiers, and especially not if the upper end is constrained.  Your DP Modifier applies as a slider you set based on the totality of the circumstances.  If you have doubts as to what value to use, categorize situational difficulties into fixed values so you can measure against the scale.  Think of your modifier scale like it was one of the old school damage tracks from 1e.  Between that and a limited Threshold scale, you are good to go. 

The answer to 5E was always in moderation, not all this AR/DR/Edge mess. 

WarriorPoet1274

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« Reply #310 on: (20:29:28/10-11-19) »
Guys don't forget there are modifiers for dodging apparently (SR6 Errata and in the tables in the back of SR6 Core Rules). The errata specifically says the table should be listed with the Dodge Minor Action description on page 41:

Dodge Penalty

RANGE      MODIFIER
Ground Zero    6
Close       4
Near       2

So does that go for all dodges? Firearms, melee, gas and blasts? If it does it means if you use the dodge minor action and don't have a high athletics skill depending on the distance it does nothing or you are a negative (easier to hit)? That makes no sense?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #311 on: (06:19:35/10-12-19) »
The Dodge Penalty is only explicitly mentioned in the the Avoid Incoming Action. So it only applies to that action, not to the Dodge action, as far as I can tell.
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