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Combat is SR6?

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adzling

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« Reply #30 on: (15:16:00/07-11-19) »
When the two snipers are shooting at each other during the hurricane, who cares what they "could have done" if the hurricane weren't there.  It IS there.  Rolling the same dice pool in both cases is a non sequitur as to who's going to outperform who while the hurricane either is or is not raging.

How they would have performed without the hurricane is only relevant in the event another sniper is simultaneously involved who isn't affected by the hurricane.  And if so, then it's a no brainer as to who gets the Edge.

With all due respect Stainless you're totally offbase here.

This perfectly illustrates WHY replacing modifiers based in reality for edge mechanics abstracted from reality is nuts.

In the above example the snipers should either miss most of the time, forcing an extension to the combat OR they should change their plan to avoid the windage and use a different weapon / close the distance to avoid the wind penalties.

That's a concrete example of what happens when you descend so far into abstraction that the real world no longer matters and the game becomes completely divorced from reality.

That's horrible as it makes much of what a RPG is meaningless, moving it over to boardgame territory where you do x to achieve y with no connection to anything in the real world.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #31 on: (15:55:17/07-11-19) »
Too add to adzlings post which I agree with 1000%. 

Letís say itís not combat. Itís chicago in the middle of winter and oh you are in a blizzard. Your mark has fled into a construction site and skuttles across a exposed beam. You are deciding whether to follow him. Would you say well you both are in a blizzard so you both roll your normal test and the threshold is still one because it sucks for both of you?  If the answer is yes he could be a ninja and I could be middle aged clumsy fat man aka me, and Iíd still have a solid chance of following him with no problem which obviously effects my decision making process. If the answer is no, why is this different than combat?


If the difficult isnít more difficult how does that reflect in the narrative. If it has no effect why am I bothering to tell you itís a blizzard in a brutal Chicago winter. How rewarding is it when there is no difficulty modifier? If the situation only effects things through edge why donít I always just roll my highest pool, who cares if hand to hand would suck for my kicking specialist in a ice rink Iíll just kick heís in the same boat.


Michael Chandra

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« Reply #32 on: (16:04:55/07-11-19) »
I still need to try a more intense combat situation, since last saturday my players were in cover and sniped through hacking and rigging, but combat felt rather fluent. I hope to have a two-directional fight next time, but it's definitely faster to not have to memorise the detailed modifiers. And not having to reroll the Initiative every time.
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adzling

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« Reply #33 on: (16:18:45/07-11-19) »
I still need to try a more intense combat situation, since last saturday my players were in cover and sniped through hacking and rigging, but combat felt rather fluent. I hope to have a two-directional fight next time, but it's definitely faster to not have to memorise the detailed modifiers. And not having to reroll the Initiative every time.

faster, sure.

better, not by a long shot (pun intended).

it's really sad because streamlining 5e could have resulted in a system both faster AND better.

6e smacks of the line developer burning his hand on the complexity of 5e and overreacting without any clear idea of what was wrong with 5e beyond "complexity".

What resulted was the inanity of 6e (see bikini vs. combat armor, null effect from a blizzard if both parties are in the blizzard, melee weapons that do less damage than unarmed, melee weapons that do the same damage in the hands of a pixie vs. a troll, etc, etc, etc).

Sad indeed.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #34 on: (16:25:34/07-11-19) »

With all due respect Stainless you're totally offbase here.

This perfectly illustrates WHY replacing modifiers based in reality for edge mechanics abstracted from reality is nuts.

In the above example the snipers should either miss most of the time, forcing an extension to the combat OR they should change their plan to avoid the windage and use a different weapon / close the distance to avoid the wind penalties.

That's a concrete example of what happens when you descend so far into abstraction that the real world no longer matters and the game becomes completely divorced from reality.

That's horrible as it makes much of what a RPG is meaningless, moving it over to boardgame territory where you do x to achieve y with no connection to anything in the real world.

Well it's true that I'm missing why it's important that your dice pool be smaller with the hurricane than without.

In what way is it relevant how accurate the sniper would have been if there was no hurricane?
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Serbitar

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« Reply #35 on: (16:31:01/07-11-19) »
As it was written:

Shooting becomes impossible, forcing the combatants to do something else (or at least taking much more time, which is important most of the time), as they would do in reality. Forcing them to make decisions instead of just rolling dice till someone wins. See my and Adzlings explanation above.
Modifiers enforces choices. Removing them removes choice and feels irreal.

adzling

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« Reply #36 on: (16:37:20/07-11-19) »
Well it's true that I'm missing why it's important that your dice pool be smaller with the hurricane than without.
In what way is it relevant how accurate the sniper would have been if there was no hurricane?

Serbitar's post above says it perfectly.

the TL:DR is that if you only track relative advantage you negate effects that affect both parties and that results in stupid, hilarious, idiotic situations where two snipers running in a blizzard through a forest have the same chance to hit each other as two snipers standing still in a calm, well-lit desert.

This is exactly the outcome I noted in my very first posts about 6e.

6e IS the poster child for a complete detachment from realistic outcomes in favor of the rule of cool.

welcome to shadowrun 6e, MiB edition.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #37 on: (16:38:15/07-11-19) »
On the flipside of realism, how much FUN is it to deal with a diminished dice pool that renders the sniper a smaller dice pool?

I think we all get it.  6e is less simulationist.  The disagreement we seem to have is whether fun is more important than realistic accuracy. Opinions aren't wrong, they're opinions.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

adzling

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« Reply #38 on: (16:41:19/07-11-19) »
On the flipside of realism, how much FUN is it to deal with a diminished dice pool that renders the sniper a smaller dice pool?

I think we all get it.  6e is less simulationist.  The disagreement we seem to have is whether fun is more important than realistic accuracy. Opinions aren't wrong, they're opinions.

ok so now you get it, awesome.

look there's nothing wrong with the different playstyles, they can both be fun and many people enjoy both.

the issue I have is that BOTH should be possible with a well designed game where streamlining is based on reality.

the introduction of the 6e edge mechanic renders this impossible, making rule of cool the only way to play srun 6e and saying sayonara to all black trenchcoat type players such as myself and our table.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #39 on: (16:51:10/07-11-19) »
the introduction of the 6e edge mechanic renders this impossible, making rule of cool the only way to play srun 6e and saying sayonara to all black trenchcoat type players such as myself and our table.

I respect a difference of opinion, but I think this part is just unfounded. If streamlining crunch negatively affects either playstyle more than the other, its the Pink Mohawkers who have to play more Black Trench coat now without all the numbercrunching and the loss of 5e's soak pools.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

FastJack

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« Reply #40 on: (16:51:52/07-11-19) »
I have nothing against streamlining, especially removing meaningless or useless modifiers. A modifier should alsways be meaningfull. If it is however, removing it means removing choices and tactical depth, though. There is no way arround it. If a combat system is too simple and does not offer any meaningfull choices its just dice rolling. Of course there is a sweet spot between speed, complexity and choice, and this spot is different for everybody.

@Fastjack: You could have answered my question, though.

Your right, I didn't. Because I don't need to. You feel that there isn't any gain to the new rules, I feel the new rules are a welcome change to the game that will make it easier for new players to pick it up. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I have to waste my time talking to you when you won't change your mind. Feel free to say how you feel about the new rules, I won't (and haven't) moderated opinions until they turn to personal attacks.

Marcus

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« Reply #41 on: (16:54:25/07-11-19) »
If you have been in a hurricane. You know right off no one is going to be engaging in a sniper duel in middle of it in the first place. But taking shelter from high wind, torrential rain and they chaos they spawn will keep anyone busy.

But the the biggest issue here is. Even if the edge system is as fantastic as purposed by some on here. Iím not saying I agree, You know I support Adzling on this. But given that at the moment edge generation is crippled by the change to rate of generations, odds are itís going to be an unqualified disaster under its current raw implementation. What is going to be done to prevent that?

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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #42 on: (16:55:34/07-11-19) »
On the flipside of realism, how much FUN is it to deal with a diminished dice pool that renders the sniper a smaller dice pool?

I think we all get it.  6e is less simulationist.  The disagreement we seem to have is whether fun is more important than realistic accuracy. Opinions aren't wrong, they're opinions.

Diminishing dice pools arenít the only way to show difficulty. Even in a narrative system harder tasks are supposed to be harder. If it does t actually show difficulty itís doing a poor job telling the narrative of it being a difficult task.

But even if you use them Iíd say far more fun than a system that does not reflect difficulty. Speed is great in a system but if hard things arenít hard any fun you have is shallow and meaningless. People donít appreciate things by and large if itís just handed to them.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #43 on: (17:14:30/07-11-19) »

Diminishing dice pools arenít the only way to show difficulty. Even in a narrative system harder tasks are supposed to be harder. If it does t actually show difficulty itís doing a poor job telling the narrative of it being a difficult task.

But it's NOT harder under the metric that 6e uses, that's the rub.  That's really the rub. If snipers A and B are suffering equally(or near enough to equally), THAT is what matters.

You're comparing a shot through a hurricane to a shot that's not through a hurricane.  It's a purely academic and functionally meaningless exercise.  The 6e paradigm is to compare sniper A's shot to sniper B's shot.  Not sniper A's shot to sniper A's shot under hypothetically different circumstances.
« Last Edit: (17:16:25/07-11-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

adzling

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« Reply #44 on: (17:16:06/07-11-19) »
Speed is great in a system but if hard things arenít hard any fun you have is shallow and meaningless. People donít appreciate things by and large if itís just handed to them.

again, perfectly said Shinobi.

this is the core of my issue with 6e, it beggars belief