[Xzylvador]

Ares Air supply Drone Comes with Obsolescence (-1 to device rating), Improved Takeoff and Landing 2 and Special Storage
+ Chameleon Coating
+ 18 Armor
+ Special Armor modification (Nonconductivity 10)
+ External, Remote Control, Fixed, Reinforced Weapon Mount w/ GE Vanquisher Heavy Autocannon (Restricted Gear)
++ Ammo bin
-- Sensors switchced, etc

Final stats:  Handling 0 Accel 24/112 Speed 240 Bod 6 Armor 18 Pilot 2 Device Rating 4  Sensor 6

How'd you get to those Accelleration and Speed ratings?

[Critias]

Nah, nah.  It's just an AK.  Do whatever you want to it.  Even in real life you don't baby 'em or clean 'em or anything.  Just spit on it and maybe rack the slide a few times when you're done shooting, then throw it back into the gun closet and call it a day.  Meh, it'll be allright.   

I'd give her a bit more respect than that.  That's what you do when you have no time for anything else, and she'll still work.

Actually, I heard a story from some folks back from The Sandbox where they captured one fellow that charged at them spraying bullets everywhere but where they were (Didn't even hit the truck!), and they found the sights on his Kalash knock-off were set at maximum range, which was 300 metres.

"That is the setting so that we can kill that many infidels."  He told them through a translator.

The flipside is, Afghanistan is horrendous on equipment of any sort, but SMLEs and AKs are the weapons of choice for the people that live there, as they're reliable even under those harsh conditions.

I've got a few buddies in the sandbox myself, and one of them was working pretty long-term at trying to train the Iraqi military (so that the Americans can, y'know, go home).  He ran into the same thing.  There's a belief that's pretty common over there -- I have no idea how it got started -- that the range slider on the sights is some sort of Star Trek Power Meter (tm) or something.  Lots of guys over there just insist on leaving it at "maximum power," which has done an awful lot of their targets a really big favor.

Alas, not all of them, but...yeah.  It's an interesting trend.

[Kontact]

How'd you get to those Accelleration and Speed ratings?

I made them up?  Well the acceleration at least.  The speed is -20% due to armor exceeding body x2.  I haven't bought the PDF.  I don't know that I will, considering how unbalanced the drones are.. as I exhibited with this air-supply build.  Being able to start a regular 400bp game with a drone capable of mounting a main-gun is bonkers.  In a pretty awesome way, sure, but still that is some neon pink mohawk stuff.   Here is a picture of the GAU-8/A Avenger which the GE Vigilant Heavy Autocannon is based off, just for reference.

If Mods ignored slotting rules (and potentially physics) then that would be noted, see Arsenal page 150: "Bayonet Mount: The bayonet mount allows the attachment of a bayonet (see p. 32) without using up the barrel mount, as it usually does." If they note it as a deviance from the norm for bayonets, why would deviance be the norm for other mods?

I really don't know how you could read that and get from it that mods usually take up slots instead of the fact that bayonets usually use up slots.  The attachment of a bayonet takes up the barrel mount slot.  The mod bypasses the need for the slot, as all mods do, allowing you to mount a barrel accessory and still attach a bayonet to your weapon.  What did you think the "it" in that sentence refers to? The abstract concept of mods as some sort of never-mentioned subtext?  Is that the basis of your argument?  That the pronoun, "it," is referring to some greater concept outside the text, instead of just the anticendent article?

[Loki]

If Mods ignored slotting rules (and potentially physics) then that would be noted, see Arsenal page 150: "Bayonet Mount: The bayonet mount allows the attachment of a bayonet (see p. 32) without using up the barrel mount, as it usually does." If they note it as a deviance from the norm for bayonets, why would deviance be the norm for other mods?

I really don't know how you could read that and get from it that mods usually take up slots instead of the fact that bayonets usually use up slots.  The attachment of a bayonet takes up the barrel mount slot.  The mod bypasses the need for the slot, as all mods do, allowing you to mount a barrel accessory and still attach a bayonet to your weapon.  What did you think the "it" in that sentence refers to? The abstract concept of mods as some sort of never-mentioned subtext?  Is that the basis of your argument?  That the pronoun, "it," is referring to some greater concept outside the text, instead of just the anticendent article?

If all mod versions of slotted accessories were slot req free, why is it specifically mentioned in that one case? If this slotlessness were the rule for mods it would either be mentioned on all mods where the accessory version needed a slot or none. That it has that notation while gas vent, UB weight, UB wep, etc do not indicates it is a variance from the norm.

[Xzylvador]

So basically you're ruling that all mods = accessories because of that one item? There's no mention anywhere else that this is the case.

IMO, it only even mentions the "without using up the barrel mount, as it usually does" as a flavor/setting explanation why some people prefer the more difficult to mount mod instead of the clip-on accessory, without automatically meaning that all mods take the same slots as accessories.
Writing "Mods take up the same slots accessories do." in the Weapon Modification rules (which has a whole paragraph named "Modifications vs. Accessories" without any mention of mods taking up accessory mounts) would have done a much better job of that than adding it to the "bayonette mount" entry.

Like others said, mods are internal modifications, they are limited by the amount of room (slots) left inside the weapon to make some internal changes (and this is the only limit mentioned in Arsenal about weapon mods); accessories are external additions, limited in type and amount by the place (mounts) where's they're added externally.

[Kontact]

The bayonet mount is different in that it is not self contained like a gas vent or smartgun system.  It still requires a bayonet.  I think that is the significant difference, and what requires the clarification. 

To look at the difference between an accessory, which is a bolt-on, and a mod, which changes the essential nature of a weapon, take a look at something like an M203 compared with a weapon system like the F2000 which can still accept a forward pistol grip beneath its integrated GL1 grenade launcher, underbarrel shotgun, or pneumatic launcher.

[Xzylvador]

Ah the F2000... at least there's still one thing we know how to do right in this country.
(Of course, we then sell it to dictatorships and totalitarian governments; but that's besides the point.)

[Inarai]

Except there are cases where such a thing does not exist, or that they are not identical - I'll note the Underbarrel weight here - the accessory version applies only to full bursts, whereas the modification version applies to all recoil.  And that doesn't actually answer the question, because there's no rules text that says to do so!

Yes there is, you're choosing to ignore it. If they acted differently such exception would be noted in the Mods vs Accessories section in Arsenal.

Not quite.  There's nothing that states that the modification rules follow the same rules as accessories - there is something that spells out a difference between mods and accessories of the same name.  This is not the only difference - for example, in some cases, the two function quite differently, as with Underbarrel Weight.  Nor do the rules tell you to look at an accessory bearing the same name to determine if it requires mod slots.  You choose to run it that way, fine - but it's not written that way, and given the application of a different limiter, it is likely not intended that way either.  That said, there's a thread about this in the rules forum, started it a while back because someone wasn't sure. 

As for the bayonet mount, you're misreading it.  The modification does not give you the bayonet, and is not the mod version of an accessory.  The modification gives you a mounting slot - and would actually be quite pointless if it required a mounting slot.

Also, without mentioning any variance, the gas vent mod indicates how it interacts with certain barrel-mounted accessories, which it would not if the mod took up the barrel slot and thus made the interaction impossible.

Perhaps it's best to continue the discussion there if you must, rather than continue to derail this thread further.

My contribution:

Ares Alpha w/
-- High Velocity upgrade, 2 slots
-- Gas Vent 2, 1 slot
-- Personalized Grip, 1 slot
-- Additional Clip, 2 slots

Put it all on a gyro stabilizer, kicking you up to a good 11 compensation, and suddenly you're looking at 17DV full bursts without recoil.  Load your clips with whatever ammo you like - perhaps lethal and non-lethal, or flechette and APDS, or AV and Ex-Ex...  So many options, there.  If one type of ammo is plenty for you, swap the extra clip out to converting it to a drum load, since this thing is gonna throw a lot of bullets downrange.

[Loki]

The bayonet mount is different in that it is not self contained like a gas vent or smartgun system.  It still requires a bayonet.  I think that is the significant difference, and what requires the clarification. 

To look at the difference between an accessory, which is a bolt-on, and a mod, which changes the essential nature of a weapon, take a look at something like an M203 compared with a weapon system like the F2000 which can still accept a forward pistol grip beneath its integrated GL1 grenade launcher, underbarrel shotgun, or pneumatic launcher.

That's getting into the real world of gun modification vs a SR rules system, that's like comparing apples to atom bombs. 


Didn't know of the other thread, I'll look it over. Apologies to the OP.

[CanRay]

I think threads like this is a damned good reason to have published and fully-explained errata.  That could have just been a editing error, after all.

[Loki]

I could see it going either way due to editing errors.

[CanRay]

Thus my argument for published errata.

[Ryo]

Surprisingly, Inarai is actually right about mods, in general, not taking up mounting points. HOWEVER, he is very wrong on the specific mod he keeps quoting.

1: Underbarrel weapon mod specifically says that it cannot be combined with other underbarrel mods or accessories that reduce recoil.

2: It also specifically says you cannot attach an underbarrel weapon to an underbarrel weapon.

So no, all this talk of underbarrel weights on weapons with underbarrel grenade launchers is outright incorrect, as is Inarai's hilariously illogical claim of multiple underbarrel weapons.

[Angelone]

_________________________
And now, a death drone.

Ares Air supply Drone Comes with Obsolescence (-1 to device rating), Improved Takeoff and Landing 2 and Special Storage
+ Chameleon Coating
+ 18 Armor
+ Special Armor modification (Nonconductivity 10)
+ External, Remote Control, Fixed, Reinforced Weapon Mount w/ GE Vanquisher Heavy Autocannon (Restricted Gear)
++ Ammo bin
-- Sensors switchced, etc

Final stats:  Handling 0 Accel 24/112 Speed 240 Bod 6 Armor 18 Pilot 2 Device Rating 4  Sensor 6

Thanks to Improved Takeoff, this is a full VTOL aircraft capable of hovering around during operations.  If you want to keep it covert until needed (radar is a problem) just store it in the back of a semi.  Anyway, it's a gunship with a tankbuster cannon on the front of the mother.
You know, lovely 11P -6AP  15 round bursts.  Murder on a stick.  Engage 5 targets withing 2 meters of each other from 2,400m away.  This thing is a beastly bit of cavalry.  Use its storage to smuggle goods or to drop ordinance on top of targets.  Nothing says lovin like about 100 HE grenades dropped on a hostile target.

Total cost: 50k + Restricted Gear or 15 BP 
It will cost more to upgrade it for independent operation, but, really, this terrifying bastard deserves a dedicated rigger.

Accel is 30/150 on the drone, speed is 300. I'm not sure if the mods you put on it reduce either of those I haven't read the mod rules in quite some time and even then it was really only skimming.

Btw, I'd recommend This Old Drone and Milspec Tech to those who haven't gotten them yet. TOD brings a lot of old drones into SR4 and MT adds interesting vehicles and other things.

Now I've got to get my hands on a MPUV and Ferrari Appaloosa, and I'm currently playing the mage 

[CanRay]

I don't even have a character yet, and I want a MPUV.

I figure it'd be the perfect Barrens vehicle, and maybe one of the best ways to get out of the sprawl and into NAN Territory for a "Hunting Trip"...