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Thresholds in Opposed Tests? (6e QSR)

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Katanarchist

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« on: (20:51:45/07-11-19) »
Looking through the 6e QSR in perpetration to try bringing ShadowRun to the table again -- the idea of more streamlined rule set has the players in my group pretty excited -- and I've come across a bit of a hiccup; can thresholds apply to opposed tests?

The QSR document would seem to say no, but at the same time, the examples for Thresholds -- i.e. trying to shoot an opponent through a window -- is something that I would think would be considered an opposed test. Obviously there are rules for cover, but cover just adds to the character's defense rating. Where do situational modifiers that would make a task extremely difficult regardless of any action on the participating characters come in to play?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: (21:05:03/07-11-19) »
6e rules questions are in a sticky place right now.  There is an errata process underway, but obviously nothing is available to the public as of yet.

Now the question can also be asked of 5th edition, and that's a context more easily discussed.  The fact remains that in the chapter defining game concepts, there is no allowance in 5e for opposed tests to incorporate a threshold.  As to whether that means "it doesn't say there CAN be one" or "it doesn't say there CAN'T be one" is going to boil down to your philosophical understanding of how rules work.  Personally, as far as I'm concerned, it means "it doesn't say there CAN be one" ergo no opposed test may ever incorporate a threshold. And IMO this is the basis, for example, of why Indirect Area Combat spells (which incorporate a success test with a threshold rather than an opposed test with a dodge pool) can never be dodged, despite the 5e rulebook making a couple oblique references to dodging fireballs.

So. For 6th edition: You'll have to wait and see if the notation for Opposed tests includes the possibility of a threshold.  And then keep an eye out for the possibility of errata changing or clarifying whatever the printed word happens to say on this specific topic. In the meanwhile, for the QSR: You'll have to decide for yourself if it "doesn't say there CAN be a threshold" or it "doesn't say there CAN'T be a threshold".
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #2 on: (21:24:50/07-11-19) »
Looking through the 6e QSR in perpetration to try bringing ShadowRun to the table again -- the idea of more streamlined rule set has the players in my group pretty excited -- and I've come across a bit of a hiccup; can thresholds apply to opposed tests?

The QSR document would seem to say no, but at the same time, the examples for Thresholds -- i.e. trying to shoot an opponent through a window -- is something that I would think would be considered an opposed test. Obviously there are rules for cover, but cover just adds to the character's defense rating. Where do situational modifiers that would make a task extremely difficult regardless of any action on the participating characters come in to play?

QSR does not explicitly say that opposed tests have thresholds. In previous edition it was the opponents roll that kinda set your threshold. Have to wait till the full rules come out to see if QSR is simply simplified it or not.

Katanarchist

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« Reply #3 on: (22:44:44/07-11-19) »
Now the question can also be asked of 5th edition, and that's a context more easily discussed.  The fact remains that in the chapter defining game concepts, there is no allowance in 5e for opposed tests to incorporate a threshold.
Even though it wasn't really for me, I've played enough 5e to know that there are situational modifiers which will impact things like opposed tests. So even though there aren't thresholds, there are still mechanics in place which effect rolls in that way.

But that's neither here nor there, because it's 6e that I'm interested in playing. And obviously I understand that a QSR isn't going to have every that's in the full core rulebook, and maybe my concern is totally moot. It just seems odd that the examples given of how thresholds work in 6e includes something which would pretty clearly be an opposed test if thresholds don't apply to opposed tests.

tenchi2a

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« Reply #4 on: (23:11:25/07-11-19) »
Looking through the 6e QSR in perpetration to try bringing ShadowRun to the table again -- the idea of more streamlined rule set has the players in my group pretty excited -- and I've come across a bit of a hiccup; can thresholds apply to opposed tests?

The QSR document would seem to say no, but at the same time, the examples for Thresholds -- i.e. trying to shoot an opponent through a window -- is something that I would think would be considered an opposed test. Obviously there are rules for cover, but cover just adds to the character's defense rating. Where do situational modifiers that would make a task extremely difficult regardless of any action on the participating characters come in to play?

QSR does not explicitly say that opposed tests have thresholds. In previous edition it was the opponents roll that kinda set your threshold. Have to wait till the full rules come out to see if QSR is simply simplified it or not.

One of the things that get thrown around a lot here is "In previous edition" which is not quite right.
As 1-3rd had a quite different system to 4-5th edition.
Such as in 1st-3rd:
Modifiers did not reduce your dice #'s they changed the Base TN (bad;+2, good;-1 would change the TN by +1) This would be the # needed on the die roll to get a success.
The base TN being set by the range (Short: 4, Med: 5, Long: 6, Extreme: 9)
Then Situational Target Modifiers where applied.
Damage was also way different as the dodge (Base TN:4) and soak ( Base TN:Weapon power - armor) roll combined to reduce the Hits on the roll.
Add to this that Damage was modified -/+1 per 2 net hits.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #5 on: (02:08:47/07-12-19) »
Unfortunately Core is still heavily under NDA. So we can't answer your question yet.

That said, nothing blocks you from designing a houserule stating you may add autohits to either side of circumstances are past the point of simply an Edge.
« Last Edit: (02:10:18/07-12-19) by Michael Chandra »
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Katanarchist

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« Reply #6 on: (05:11:01/07-12-19) »
Unfortunately Core is still heavily under NDA. So we can't answer your question yet.

That's cool. I wasn't expecting any sort of official answer, and certainly not information from an unreleased book. More, I was just curious if anyone had some insight into how to handle the situation, or if maybe there'd been something in the developer's notes that had mentioned such.

That said, nothing blocks you from designing a houserule stating you may add autohits to either side of circumstances are past the point of simply an Edge.
Now that's an interesting idea!

So, if you were to implement such a houserule, would the character rolling add any extra hits their pool generated to the auto hits, or would they only add what they roll above and beyond the auto hits?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: (05:17:28/07-12-19) »
I'd add the autohits on top of the normal roll. Has the same effect as putting a threshold on the other side, after all. So it's basically the same thing, but formulated in a different manner. ;D

Incidentally, there's a publicly-available SR6 case where you may have an autohit or face a threshold already, but it's unopposed: Healing Tests face a threshold of 5-Essence, so with 6 Essence they get an autohit.
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Katanarchist

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« Reply #8 on: (06:56:59/07-12-19) »
Cool. Thanks, this seems like a good way to approach things.