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The Riggers Plight

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Typhus

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« Reply #90 on: (11:33:33/08-13-19) »
Quote
Because 6we caps bonus dice at +4, the size of dice pools are kind of plateau'd.  Skill + Attribute (+augmentation) +up to 4 dice. Applies to everyone and everything.

That part is news to me.  I knew about attributes, but you are saying it's across the board?  So for example, I get L4 Muscle Toner, for +4 AGI.  If I then pick up a smartlink, I get no benefit from it's +1 bonus when shooting, because I've already got my +4 dice?

Or are "bonus dice" different than "dice from augmentation"?  I'm confused now.

If so, can you point me to that ruling?  I missed the blanket application idea. 

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #91 on: (11:40:56/08-13-19) »
Sorry for making it confusing.

Augmentations have always been capped at +4, that's not new to 6we.

What IS new to 6we is bonuses from sources other than skill + attribute are capped at +4.

So if you have Agility 4 (8 ) thanks to level 4 Muscle Toner, that's just giving 8 dice in the attribute portion of the Skill + attribute formula.

Things like the Control Rig giving +Rating dice are what's capped at +4. (Ref pg 39)  So, for example, you can't get +5 dice from Reflex Recorders, Improved Ability Adept power, and similar. It also means if you have a rating 3 control rig, you can only get +1 more die bonuses from elsewhere, such as Reflex Recorder.
« Last Edit: (12:42:41/08-13-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Typhus

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« Reply #92 on: (12:11:38/08-13-19) »
Very confusing.  I don't disagree with upper end limits though, for sure.  Mega dice pools the bane of 5E.

Restating you to make sure I am following.

I can actually get:

[natural attribute + 4 augmentation] + natural skill + [4 total die from any other source including augmentation to skill]

Meaning there are two caps to observe.

Do I have that right?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #93 on: (12:13:24/08-13-19) »
Very confusing.  I don't disagree with upper end limits though, for sure.  Mega dice pools the bane of 5E.

Restating you to make sure I am following.

I can actually get:

[natural attribute + 4 augmentation] + natural skill + [4 total die from any other source including augmentation to skill]

Meaning there are two caps to observe.

Do I have that right?

Yep.  If you have a Rating 3 control rig, don't buy +2 dice worth of skill bonuses.

A non-rigger can of course also get up to +4 dice. While that'll give bonuses just as large (or larger) than a Control Rig, they don't give edge.

Edit: Removed faulty example.
« Last Edit: (12:41:15/08-13-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Typhus

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« Reply #94 on: (12:24:57/08-13-19) »
 :o

I hadn't realized RefRecs were now ranked.  Being able to just buy 4 ranks in a skill...not sure how I feel about that yet.  But whatever.  At least there's a cap.  That's an overall improvement.

Anyway, if that's the blanket rule, I would suggest to the errata team that be more explicitly stated up front.  I have some how missed it several times now.  I got pieces of it, but the whole thing needs to be called out more readily.

So, upper end dice pool is exceptional Elf Agi 8(12) + 7 exceptional skill +4 dice from (Whatever else)  23 dice is the worst dice pool scenario possible (so far anyway)?  (Since Bod and Str don't pair with any skills, that is).


Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #95 on: (12:40:03/08-13-19) »
Ah, double checked.  Reflex Recorders aren't ranked; they only give +1.  Bad example.  Pretend I said Improved Ability Adept power instead :D

Regardless... all bonuses to skill rolls combined from however many sources can't go past +4. Per pg 39: "They can be modified by
spells, gear, and other effects, but their augmented
increase can never be more than +4."

« Last Edit: (12:43:07/08-13-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #96 on: (12:47:35/08-13-19) »
So, upper end dice pool is exceptional Elf Agi 8(12) + 7 exceptional skill +4 dice from (Whatever else)  23 dice is the worst dice pool scenario possible (so far anyway)?  (Since Bod and Str don't pair with any skills, that is).

Getting off topic... but more or less yes that's right.  Max dice pool for chargen seems to be by my reckoning: 10 (14) (maximum attribute, then hit augmented bonus) + 9 (7 skill plus specialization) + 4 (skill bonus cap). 27 dice, no way to break that limit without raising skills beyond 7.

Of course in a combat sense, max agility possible is 12 so that maximum munchkin'd out elf attack pool is 25 dice.  (bear in mind that in 6we, skills can potentially pair with attributes they don't normally use.  For example, climbing uses Athletics + Strength instead of Agility, and so on.)
« Last Edit: (12:49:46/08-13-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Typhus

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« Reply #97 on: (13:27:53/08-13-19) »
OK, thanks for the clarifications.  Now, where are the various rule entries that cover this?   :)

(We can move this to the Rules board, totally OT now)

Hephaestus

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« Reply #98 on: (14:02:54/08-13-19) »
So, the Control Rig issue aside, the other big issue I see is the lack of rules for vehicles/drones.

- There are no mods beyond weapon mounts, rigger interfaces, and manual controls (really, why is this last one a thing?).
- There is no entry for cost/availability for Pilot programs.
- There is no language/rules for drone swarms (and no, I do not count the Grunt Rules. They have no language for program sharing and force all drones to be identically equipped).
- Vehicles/Drones only get program slots up to their Pilot rating/2 rounded up.

So while the merits of being a Rigger seem dubious at best, what they get to use in any situation is less useful than in previous editions. Hopefully Rigger 6.0 is one of the first splat books (and is actually reviewed/edited/extensively play-tested prior to release) or Riggers are going to be even more rare then they are now.

Xenon

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« Reply #99 on: (17:15:25/08-13-19) »
...and manual controls (really, why is this last one a thing?).
Are you thinking about manual operation of weapon mounts?
This was a thing in SR5 core as well...

This basically mean that the LMG is door mounted or roof mounted with a hatch or whatever so your street samurai can operate it with his firearms skill and his agility rating (as an alternative to having the rigger or decker remote operating it using their engineering + logic).

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #100 on: (17:47:15/08-13-19) »
Actually, you ALWAYS use Engineering + Logic for mounted weapons. Page 200. Non-mounted attacks are as normal.

Something else: We're currently debating page 39's augmented increase to skills. I believe it does not apply to dicepool modifiers but only to explicit skill rank modifiers (aka Reflex Recorder and Improved Ability), but opinions differ.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #101 on: (18:20:28/08-13-19) »
Something else: We're currently debating page 39's augmented increase to skills. I believe it does not apply to dicepool modifiers but only to explicit skill rank modifiers (aka Reflex Recorder and Improved Ability), but opinions differ.

Indeed, I think I'm going to have be done with the thread to avoid NDA issues.  At least until next wave of errata comes out... but by then there'll probably be new threads about Riggers' Plights, neh? :D
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #102 on: (19:23:03/08-13-19) »
you ALWAYS use Engineering + Logic for mounted weapons.
So basically pretty pointless adding manual operation on vehicle mounted weapons as gunner would still operate it with engineering + mental attribute. Interesting...

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #103 on: (20:07:59/08-13-19) »
...and manual controls (really, why is this last one a thing?).
Are you thinking about manual operation of weapon mounts?

Traditionally, Manual Controls were for the vehicle piloting.  It was a defense against your ride getting hacked...

Since the public at large are losing interest waiting for the PDF, I can't verify the intention of the manual controls that Hephaestus references.  So, shrug.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #104 on: (00:00:27/08-14-19) »
you ALWAYS use Engineering + Logic for mounted weapons.
So basically pretty pointless adding manual operation on vehicle mounted weapons as gunner would still operate it with engineering + mental attribute. Interesting...
Eh, not having to handle a commlink in a carchase sounds nice. Also Guardian Spirits might like the gun. Though the range of Elemental Attack got buffed, it's still better sometimes to not use a low-AR attack.
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