NEWS

The Riggers Plight

  • 107 Replies
  • 3431 Views

adzling

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3204
  • Telling it like it is
    • Building Better Security
« Reply #30 on: (17:57:02/07-12-19) »
Your disposable recon drones should run 50 to 100 Nuyen at most.  Spirits are free and do it better in many cases. 

Combat drones should be expensive, effective, and have overflow boxes so they stop functioning, but are still repairable.  Same with Vehicles.  And even if they fill the overflow boxes some salvage value should be retained.  Combat loss is not a total loss.

Repair rules should be you need a toolkit, parts (aka Nuyen), and time.  And they should be automatic or low threshold tests.  IRL there are very few car repairs you can't do in your driveway with hand tools.  Shops should be a bonus.  Fabrication should be NPCs, but if you have one, you no longer need to buy parts.

xclnt post hobbes +2 from me!

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2420
« Reply #31 on: (18:24:51/07-12-19) »
Thanks!  People like to tell me I really get Riggers.  Especially Snake people   ;) ;D :P

Iron Serpent Prince

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 381
« Reply #32 on: (11:09:41/07-14-19) »
Well Wakshaani, only 6 people have posted a response to your questions.

I dunno if that is an indication of how many people play Riggers, how many people even think about Riggers, or how many people even care about Riggers.

My inner ego monster wants to think that it just shows that every other person agrees with me and felt they couldn't add any further.  :P

I wish you good luck in figuring out how to weight this input.  ;)

Wakshaani

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2171
« Reply #33 on: (11:41:20/07-14-19) »
It's early yet! :D And this isn't the heaviest board for Shadowrun-related stuff. I'll need to expand things elsewhere and put together a more detailed questionnaire possibly.

BUT!

The general thrust is there. Once we get problems identified then we can work on solutions. I already have a few popping around inside my noggin but it'll take a while to get things in place.

Still, a good start, and thanks to everyone who's joined in thusfar and to those who have yet to follow up.

Singularity

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 149
« Reply #34 on: (11:43:37/07-14-19) »
Well Wakshaani, only 6 people have posted a response to your questions.

I dunno if that is an indication of how many people play Riggers, how many people even think about Riggers, or how many people even care about Riggers.

My inner ego monster wants to think that it just shows that every other person agrees with me and felt they couldn't add any further.  :P

I wish you good luck in figuring out how to weight this input.  ;)

Some of us haven't played Shadowrun before, and need the 6E book to drop so that we can find out how they work (or don't) and then offer feedback from there.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 8810
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #35 on: (12:15:49/07-14-19) »
I GM, and my wife refuses to touch the forum with an 11-foot carbon pole. So alas, neither of us can share here.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Iron Serpent Prince

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 381
« Reply #36 on: (15:45:25/07-14-19) »
Some of us haven't played Shadowrun before, and need the 6E book to drop so that we can find out how they work (or don't) and then offer feedback from there.

That is a very valid point.  It is one we are all - well those of us who don't have access to the 6e CRB - waiting on.

From what has been said, 6e will address some of the issues brought up in this thread.
On the flip side, based on the Rigger QSR Dossier the majority of the Control Rig bonus has been reduced to generating 1 Edge.

Admittedly, the QSR may have nothing to do with what is in the CRB*, so there is still a chance that a large portion of this thread will be moot.

*I don't get why you would release a product that doesn't accurately reflect the main product.  Then again, I've never been the target audience for Beginner / Starter rules.

Singularity

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 149
« Reply #37 on: (16:57:14/07-14-19) »

Admittedly, the QSR may have nothing to do with what is in the CRB*, so there is still a chance that a large portion of this thread will be moot.

*I don't get why you would release a product that doesn't accurately reflect the main product.  Then again, I've never been the target audience for Beginner / Starter rules.

Actually, from my experience it fairly typical for beginner's boxed set rules to differ at least somewhat from the full rules. Not too much, as it then defeats the purpose of giving people an idea of what your game is about, but enough so that it's noticeable (especially when creating characters using the full rules). I have the Shadowrun boxed set, but not having played it before I have no frame of reference until I can get the main rule book in my hands.

BeCareful

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 97
« Reply #38 on: (23:06:36/07-14-19) »
I've never played as one, but I'd like to. So, here's what I think:

1) "Where does Rigging need improvement?" I honestly don't know. I do think seperate skills for piloting and mechanic-related tinkering for different classes of vehicle would help, especially if Jumping In let you substitute something for each of those skills. Getting an intuitive brain-computer-interface with your drone/vehicle should certainly help in driving whatever it is, but getting an understanding of how to modify it.

2) "How often does vehicular action turn up?" Since I've had groups that have fallen to bits after the first few runs, about half of them? That still isn't very many. Still, none of them have been the "try to outrun racing bikes in a van" scenario, usually since every runner I've been with has had their own sort of transportation. The decker incites crashes, the magician does magic, whoever's Rigging attracts attention/sideswipes anyone in those flimsy bikes, and everyone else uses guns.

3) "Strength/weaknesses of drones:" While they do mean you don't have to risk yourself, the situational irony is that it's faster and easier for the Rigger to recover than any of their drones. Having overflow would certainly help, maybe with another rule that broken-but-not-totalled drones could still be able to limp away. Making them less expensive would result in more people buying them even if they didn't have a Control Rig, but they could still invite Rigger Access to them, letting the whole team help 'em out! Also, with the repair rules in 5th, GMs may have to be nice by giving them parts to scavenge, either off of trash mob drones they find, or contacts.

4) "Drone/Vehicle Preference?" I go both ways. Sort of like (incoming tangent) how I wish Mystic Adepts could either be Adepts With A Couple Spells or Spellcasters With A Little Qi, without being either bad at both or too good at both. Though this also depends on the setting. We're going to be spending time away from any metroplex? The Rigger wants an armoured van that's bristling with weaponry? That works! We're going to be infiltrating a big, well-ventilated office building? Break out the Kanmushi & Fly-Spies!

5) "Meatspace or Matrix?" Either? Would it be a good idea to have a Control Rig help out even when you aren't Jumped In? Aren't RCCs able to get around Pilot limitations anyway? I don't really mind drone dicepools always being lower than most people's, since drones are supposed to be more replaceable than characters.

6) "What Do I Like About It?" Other than the idea of Being Your Car, or putting a cowboy hat & trenchcoat on your Duelist and pretending it's you, the idea of having a bunch of little robots that people will underestimate until you jump into them and use your dicepools for stuff. Or having a customized vehicle that I'd get to show off, instead of having to leave it in the garage when the Mission text reads, "You all show up on time to the meet, and Mr. Johnson says you'll all have to get smuggled across the border in this shipping container."

7) "Worst Aspects?" As usual, when your precious, expensive baby explodes, or falls into the ocean, or can't be salvaged in some other way. Then the Force Large spirit that hit it with a Lightning Bolt gets fought by a spirit called in by your mage, and they resort to Astral Combat so you can't even see it go down.

Cool Shades Face) "Cheap & Disposable vs. Expensive & Durable?" While there should be options for both, I'd probably rather start out with one or two sturdy drones I can modify more later, and pick up a cheap infiltration-based one or two later. Or equip one of those robot baby drones with a self-destruct system. To trick the target into picking up; I don't want to be known as the runner who throws exploding babies at people. Oh, and as for cars, I'd prefer stealth systems like spoof chips & electrochromic coatings so I won't have to ditch them for new ones every so often.

9) "Vehicle Costs:" I think they're about okay where they are? Maybe a bit less, because of repair costs, and if they don't get used enough.

10) "Fill In The Blanks!" Right now, I see Rigging as support work: they can help infiltrate, place a mobile bug somewhere, assisst with an extra hail of bullets, watch everyone's backs, and effect a "NOW NOW NOW!" kind of escape. Really, all I hope for are cheaper drone costs, cheaper repairs (one might lead to the other), Control Rigs that provide some benefit even without Jumping In, and, if possible, spirits having a harder time noticing/affecting drones. Making drones a weakness for spirits might help be a balancing factor, preferably if the drones don't have to be loaded with sniper rifles doing Focused Bursts with APDS or spraying Blight on them.

Also: I don't mind if drones are made more accessible. As I mentioned before, it wouldn't water down the Rigging role so much as help with the "Nobody Can Do That Better Than I Can" comparison. More so if you let the Rigger Rig with your drone as well. If the other characters even invest in a drone in the first place.
"Welcome to Shadowrun, where the biggest obstacle is you!"

Beta

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1643
  • SR1 player, SR5 GM@FtF & player@PbP
« Reply #39 on: (09:32:56/07-15-19) »
Well Wakshaani, only 6 people have posted a response to your questions.

I dunno if that is an indication of how many people play Riggers, how many people even think about Riggers, or how many people even care about Riggers.

My inner ego monster wants to think that it just shows that every other person agrees with me and felt they couldn't add any further.  :P

I wish you good luck in figuring out how to weight this input.  ;)

I think one factor too could be that the forums of late have been almost nothing but arguing about 6th edition in various ways, with most threads, whatever their original intent, eventually arriving at variations on why people already hate 6th edition, what it should have been, and whether Catalyst is ignorant or actively hates ShadowRun (maybe a slight bit of exaggeration here, but it is certainly how it has been feeling to me).  Which, IMO,  makes the place pretty unpleasant for anyone who isn't invested in such arguments. 

I suspect that a lot of people have given up checking in here, or assumed that this thread would have just turned into 'how 6th edition has killed Riggers', or something like that.  (This thread has remained remarkably constructive, which honestly has amazed me a bit given the overall environment around here lately). 

Jawsey  --
speechthought

BeCareful

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 97
« Reply #40 on: (13:43:59/07-15-19) »
Yeah, I originally thought I wouldn't be able to add much, until I realized I had something to offer that's in short supply right now: positivity!

Plus, from what it sounds, Rigging has been tough in most editions, and 6th is looking to make it both easier and more fun. So there's hopefully that.
"Welcome to Shadowrun, where the biggest obstacle is you!"

mcv

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 140
« Reply #41 on: (11:25:02/07-29-19) »
2) Roughly how often do you use vehicle chases? Would them being more common help or be a hassle?

Depends on the story. Not every run needs a vehicle chase, so a dedicated driver is always going to be wasted on some missions. Being the designated driver should be a side job next to other responsibilities.

Quote
3) Where are drones strong? Where are drones weak?
They're strong at scouting and observation. You can be in multiple places at once.

They're weak in combat because they're expensive and fragile.

Quote
4) Would you prefer a rigger focus be on vehicles or drones?
Both. A dedicated driver is going to be a waste on a lot of missions. A rigger should be able to do both. Especially as long as combat is too expensive for a rigger, there's nothing wrong with a rigger being able to shine everywhere else.

Quote
5) Would you rather a rigger be better in meatspace or in the Matrix?
I think this should be a choice. There is some natural synergy between deckers and riggers, so it'd be nice if you could combine them so some extent. Maybe give up either vehicles or drones in order to be better in the Matrix. On the other hand it'd also be nice if a rigger could afford to kick ass in combat. But excelling at combat and matrix and scouting and chases is too much. There should still be trade-offs

Quote
6) What do you like about being a Rigger?
Being able to control multiple drones, and use them as extensions of yourself. And the gear porn of course.

At least, that's what attracts me about riggers. I've never played one because I'm currently the GM of my group. I'd love to recommend playing a rigger to my players, but the extra the rules seem like a steep hurdle, and they seem to be about the hardest archetype to play effectively.

Quote
7) What are the worst aspects of being a Rigger?
Yet another rule system to deal with. That, and the expensive fragile toys that you can't afford to risk.

Quote
8) Would you prefer drones to be cheap and disposable or expensive and durable?
Both. Cheap and disposable has its uses, but it'd be nice if you could also get a real tank that had some staying power in combat without costing more than your pay to fix it.

Quote
9) Are vehicle prices appropriate for the times when the Rigger gets to show off their toys or do they cost too much vs how often they are used?
I think vehicle prices are fine. I don't know if they're too tough or too fragile, but a basic van is quite affordable. Though from what I understand, the vehicle rules don't really allow riggers to show off with one. Of course a van is never going to be as fast as a bike, no matter how good a rigger is, but there are other subtleties about a chase where being the vehicle, rather than merely driving it, should really help.

Quote
10) FIll in the blank - Tell me what your ideal Rigger looks like, where they do for the team, and what else you'd like to see them do.
Support mostly. Eyes in the sky, backup firepower, scouting, driving the car. But no drone should outshine the street sam in combat. A drone that's as fast as a street sam should be more vulnerable, a drone that's tougher than a street sam should be slower. A heavily armored drone runs slowly on tracks.
« Last Edit: (11:55:56/07-29-19) by mcv »

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5246
« Reply #42 on: (14:44:38/07-30-19) »
Sorry for formatting. On phone.

Control Rig is super powerful when it comes to controlling a vehicle and its mounted weapons. Piloting or Gunnery without one does not even compare.

RCC is very useful when controlling swarm of drones. Use of a commlink or cyberdeck does not compare.


Manual Piloting:   Disadvantage, Rigger
...    That means that any Initiative based character (typically Street Sams and Adepts, though Mages can be as well) can out pilot a Rigger when only comparing meatspace abilities.


Riggers generally have maxed out Reaction and great Piloting skills. But yes, others might have better physical initiative.


Remote PilotingWash
   The Rigger doesn’t gain anything in Remote Piloting that others do not.


On the fly noise reduction using Electronic Warfare.
Noise reduction by reducing sharing.
Riggers generally have maxed out Reaction and great Piloting skills.
... But yes, others might have higher physical initiative, but remote control can also be done via VR (this give you situational modifiers) and VR will also use your VR imitative rather than your physical initiative.


Jumped InSole Advantage, Rigger
   In 5e, the primary benefit of being Jumped In is reduced Thresholds for Piloting tests.


This is where they shine and totally outclass other drivers or gunners in anything vehicle related.

Control Rig also increase Speed, Handing, Accuracy and Sensor(!)


In 5e, there are no opposed Piloting rolls (other than whatever the GM makes up), and you are only rolling against the environment.


Using your vehicle to stalk/follow someone.
Using vehicle mounted weapons to fire at someone.
Using your vehicle to ram someone.
Using your vehicle to catch up or break away from someone.
Etc.


 
slip into some building/facility, and do your nefarious deed, and slip out unnoticed. 

By that point of view you don't need muscle, either.

Combat happens (otherwise known as 'The Shit Hits The Fan"-phase)
As a result you will have an exfil phase under time pressure (because HTR team is entering the facility or whatever)
Which is followed by the car chase scene (unless maybe the team don't have a dedicated wheelman, same as if the team don't have a way to deal with magical threats then they will probably not run into magical threats...)

Watch any random action movie. Car chasing happens.


Manual Piloting:   Disadvantage, Rigger

Manual piloting is not a thing for drones. But you can instruct the autopilot to take an action on its own, using its own ratings.

With an RCC you get to instruct multiple drones with one simple action.
With RCC you get to share autosofts that have higher rating than the drone can run

If you use a rigger 5 then:
With RCC you can run drone swarms


Remote PilotingWash
   Just like in the wheelman role, there is no advantage to a Rigger remote piloting over any other character...


On the fly noise reduction using Electronic Warfare.
Noise reduction by reducing sharing.
Riggers generally have maxed out Reaction and great Piloting skills.
... But yes, others might have higher physical initiative, but remote control can also be done via VR (this give you situational modifiers) and VR will also use your VR imitative rather than your physical initiative.


Jumped InSole Advantage, Rigger
   Also like the wheelman role, Riggers are the only ones...


In addition to all the advantages that wheelman enjoyed (reduced thresholds, increased dice pool, increase Speed, Handing, Accuracy and Sensor) you also get to:

Jump between drones as a simple action
Reduce noise on the fly
Reduce noise by reducing sharing

If you use a rigger 5 then:
While jumped in you can take the swarm action (which is different from the swarm program)




Typical roles in Shadowrun :

* Muscle (Combat and physical infiltration)
* Face (Contact networking, negotiating, social infiltration)
* Hacker (Matrix legwork & stealing blueprints, control cameras, elevators, sensors & alarms during infiltration and exfiltration, electrician)
* Rigger (Wheelman, transportation, physical surveillance & physical overwatch, combat support, mechanic, get-away-driver)
* Magician (Utility spells, astral surveillance & astral overwatch, deal with astral threats such as spirits, combat support)


Edit. Making my way through the thread...



Riggers should drive donuts around others in vehicle chases / combat.
    That is the lie of someone who hasn't grasped the rules for vehicle chases / combats.  Lets take one Bad Ass Rigger (BAR for short) with a dice pool of...


You almost never have a speed environment. Not even during a street race. In my experience it will be handing and higher thresholds that will be the limiting factor. Prevent crashing, performing impossible stunts and racing in tight terrain. This is something a jumped in driver excel at.




1) Other than weakening other roles (such as a mage), where do you think a Rigger needs improvement the most?

They need cheaper infiltration / surveillance drones and it need to be cheaper to repair their more expansive combat drones and vehicles.

IMO this is what a rigger do: Wheelman, transportation, physical surveillance & physical overwatch, combat support, mechanic, get-away-driver.


2) Roughly how often do you use vehicle chases? Would them being more common help or be a hassle?

Quite often if we have a wheelman.
Not very often if we don't

Same as if we quite often have Astral threats (or matrix threats) if have someone that can deal with them
Not often if we don't.

3) Where are drones strong? Where are drones weak?

Strong at long range support. Long range sniper shots at unaware targets. 600-800m layered suppressive fire from machine guns. Surveillance. Jumped in infiltration.

Drones are fragile and expensive. Can't handle direct combat that well. But it is also important that they don't take spotlight from muscle....


4) Would you prefer a rigger focus be on vehicles or drones?

Driven vehicles.


5) Would you rather a rigger be better in meatspace or in the Matrix?

They should impact the physical world, but also anything signal related (ECM, ECCM, lock on, jamming, bug scanning, intercept signals)

Also [temporary] stealing cars (!)

But not really hacking or cybercombat.


6) What do you like about being a Rigger?

In theory? The gone in 60 seconds or the fast n the furious feeling. Also Top Gun or that crazy pilot in the A Team.

Currently hard to translate that into actual Shadowrun game play :/


7) What are the worst aspects of being a Rigger?

The disconnect from the rest of the team.
Remote hackers have a similar issue, although AR hacking and direct connection backdoor is a step in the right direction.

Also many drones in combat slow down the flow of combat. Swarm rules is a step in the right direction (saw there are similar rules for mooks in SR6, which is good).


8) Would you prefer drones to be cheap and disposable or expensive and durable?

Both.
Cheap and disposable surveillance and infiltration drones.
Expansive and durable rigger alter ego that will represent the rigger on site and in combat  (exoskeleton or some sort of light battle mech that you ride inside??)

9) Are vehicle prices appropriate for the times when the Rigger gets to show off their toys or do they cost too much vs how often they are used?

Riggers are pretty resource intensive, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Repair cost and upkeep are bigger issues I think.
« Last Edit: (15:57:22/07-30-19) by Xenon »

Typhus

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 229
« Reply #43 on: (17:43:44/07-30-19) »
Disclaimer: I'm chiming in here more to present a fantasy land of what the rigger could be.  Please don't misconstrue as an critique of prior editions.  Talking about what doesn't work well, or what would be even more fun is the only way something gets better.  No hate!

I think for me the real question of designing and presenting a rigger is in first working out the feel you want them to have in game.  For me, car chases are exciting things, and the BAR should be able to deliver the Fast And Furious experience, if that's how they want to build.  Similarly, with drones, they should be able to deliver the cyber-cavalry experience, or the cyberswarm experience, or the remote controlled battle bot companion experience, etc.  The most disappointing aspect of riggers is the simulationist angle which I haven't found works well in most RPGs. The rules are concerned more with modifiers at certain speeds, measuring terrain and distance per combat turns, etc.  Rigging should be a thrill-ride for the the player and the people in the back too.  I don't feel like just having more dice or better stats necessarily conveys that feel because it leaves the impact up to the narrative, which may or may not be present at the table.  I feel like there's an opportunity to specialize and thus add some better options to differentiate one type of rigger from another, but also use those to deliver some more punch to the role.

In the case of the "role of the rigger" question, it has a few directions it can go, so people have different answers, which is fine.  I'm simplifying to a few specific cases to get at how to create that BAR feeling for a rigger player outside of dice bonuses -- which is by unlocking new abilities no one else can match. 

"The Bus Driver"
I think the title alone suggests the lost opportunities here.  I would instead suggest "Mobile Command Center Pilot" as the archetype to aim at if this is the role the player wants to fill.  Here the role is defined by the character being at their most powerful while in the driver's seat of a vehicle that can (usually) carry the whole team and possibly one or more support vehicles like drone or another character's bike.  Their power comes in providing a mobile safehouse, a battle wagon and most helpfully a nexus to operate from that isn't bound by other considerations.  To amp up how this works, make sure that the Command Center really is useful.  Extend the range of wireless devices, make it a powerful WAN hub, get all the drone feeds sending in data and using onboard sensors to scan buildings and other vehicles for signs of threats.  While I think most editions allow the mechanics, they don't necessarily add a lot of gestalt to these abilities (that I've seen, full disclaimer I passed on 5E).  What makes the rigger special here vs any jamoke in a van?  What could make them more special?  What could a vehicle rig do with all this information that a regular person who still has a normal nervous system?  I think the answer lie sin the simsense.  If the rigger has all these data feeds, why can't they "feel" the area they are scanning and not just the road.  What if they could make the drones and extension of themselves and not a thing they need to jump in or out of.  They become the fingers of the hand.  The more devices and team members you link in, the wider the hand extends.  The Busdriver becomes the Mastermind or a Mother Hen guarding the Nest, virtually feeling the landscape for the rough spots, and sensing the terrain remotely through the drones.  Minor anomalies in the data they pick up become the "bumps" and "hotspots" you need to examine more closely.  This is similar to the "building spider" idea, but applied outdoors.  What it lacks are any definitive mechanics for how this would play out or what special abilities the mastermind now has with all these opportunities available.  Maybe this should be part of the Rigger Cocoon idea?  Have this specific mod be tied to the rigger's ability to spread a net  over the area.  Maybe they learn to hit a point of zen in this cocoon where they can sense and act reflexively without the need to consciously recognize certain patterns.  A gestalt effect between human an the machine that only this version of rigger can achieve.  It's range would be limited, but it's power is upped.

Cyber Cavalry
This version of a rigger I would define as the character who like to send in the drones for fire support.  Just one flavor of drone junkie out of several types of builds.  They buy the combat drones mostly and arm and armor them up.  By nature they probably want drones that can stand up to a fight.  My philosophy on drones would be that combat ones should be able to do so, but they should be crazy expensive as the offset.  They would be a breed apart from typical drone rules.  I think drones need a little bit more separation in types.  So, perhaps start with a "frame" for a drone defined by it's purpose, rather than by how it locomotes or what size it is.  So instead of "small wheeled drone" you would define it as a small wheeled COMBAT drone.  This means it's inherently able to take more punishment (ie not just defined by Body and Armor traits, but using special rules like "combat drones also reduce all incoming damage by 1, and gain +1 on attack rolls").  Trade this off by having each combat drone eat up two "slots" on the riggers control deck due to all the extra data being coordinated and analyzed.  Give these drones unique options other drones can't have, or work better (or worse) on the wrong frames.  Make these feel special and rewarding to have invested in, as opposed to the "same as other drones but with more hardpoints/better armor".  Similarly, a recon drone frame would have -1 on attack rolls, but +1 on sensor rolls, for example.  Carrier drones would move slower but be able to carry more weight than if you slapped the same cargo capacity on a combat drone.  Stuff like that.  Here the player (probably) wants the drones to be the source of the game impact.  They vicariously enjoy the robot doing the work and being able to guide a small strike team of their own that supports the team and the mission.  When its time for the cavalry to lay in on the enemy, it should feel like a "yeehah" moment more than an "activate tailgun drone" moment.  When they activate Brutus, and the metal feet start clanking down the hall to save the team, with security guards fleeing before his flamethrower arm and shoulder mounted grenade launcher, it should be a "woo hoo" moment.  Unleash the battle bot!  When jumped into the Battle Bot, this type of rigger gets a new bonus.  The adrenaline, the flow of it all, the custom interface, all that means I'm shrugging off a little damage from each hit, I'm making deadlier strikes, I'm compensating for short circuits from damage and ignoring some penalties anyone else would be taking, etc etc. "You scratched my paint!  Y'all in trouble now!"  Brutus costs as much as a mansion, and his parts cost double because he's so customized, but he's worth every nuyen.  I'm also likely to get a bounty on my head as corps decide they want my tech.  Now I'm hunted.  Deploying him will usually (eventually) result in a Brutus Sighting ending up online somewhere.  Or whatever.  Offset Brutuses however you like. Meanwhile, Brutus' player thrills every time he can deploy Brutus.  Is Brutus game breaking?  No.  Brutus is slow and stompy, and can't really "run".  Get him too far from his carrier and you risk needing to leave him behind, which would be Oh So Bad.  Brutus is also a major liability.

Stunt driver
The stunt driver archetype is the one that fills the Go Fast and Do Cool Stuff with the car.  If this character can't do Fast & Furious level stunts in game, they lose much of the point of buying into that Eurocar Westwind.  Yes they can out-accelerate and outmaneuver other drivers, but where's the "woo hoo" factor in doing that mechanically?  I recall seeing some rules defining "doing stunts" as a thing, but that's left very free form, and up to the table what that means.  Fair enough.  I would define some of those stunts into categories and then develop bonuses for how this type of rigger can execute them better than anyone else.  I am reminded of Chase Cards from some games where there's a deck of random challenges, and each participant in the chase has to roll to do the thing.  Make speed riggers better at these things.  Give them bonuses to doing stunt challenges, and let them reduce damage to the vehicle from failed attempts (maybe special Edge spends?).  Chases aren't just "let's judge some distance and terrain and maybe make attacks", it's "Oh crap, bridge is out.  I guess we're gonna have to jump this one guys!  Hang on!"

Example: Challenge card is "Low Bridge".  Picture on the card: a semi truck is crossing the road ahead.  Choice A: Slip under (requires a Pilot check with a Threshhold of X).  If you succeed you continue at speed, but the vehicle takes 1 damage, 3 on a fail and reduce speed by half (only speed riggers can spend edge to reduce these penalties--now they are special by comparison to anyone else). Choice B: Hard Turn.  You lose speed but risk no damage (the option for non-speed riggers), unless you fail, then you sideswipe it instead and take 3 damage. 

Meanwhile, behind you, the half the Ares goons fail the challenge and take damage or you see who their speed rigger is by how well they took that challenge.  Now we have a real challenge.  Cue that Vin Diesel smirk.

Drone Swarm
This rigger gets bonuses for running swarms specifically.  Drone swarms should feel special and dangerous.  Death of a thousand cuts if used offensively, but cheap and replaceable ultimately.  This kind of rigger would get bonuses for using swarm rules, and optimizing for that use with their deck.  Optimizing the RCC deck would be nice, but also limiting.  Built for swarms, it's even harder to control regular drones with now.  Penalize that option as an offset.  At the rigger level, make them used to the feel of the cloud of drones as they swarm towards a target, able to make the drone cloud form shapes and flow through tight spaces with no loss of speed.  Tricks only they can do.  The swarm gets meta stats so they can act like a single character, and even split into parts, and merge back again.  Think of the Stark drone swarm from the new Spider Man movie.  The swarm self-coordinates when given instructions and maybe even has it's own gestalt hive-mind effect where the collective Pilot rating is improved by the size of the swarm.  My point is, amp up the overall effect, and don't just let it be "swarm rules for any type of drone".   (Again, I'm super ignorant of how 5E does this, forgive me if this is already a thing.)

New Stuff
Why not let riggers actually be a version of Tony Stark?  Why not let them rig some battle armor?  Make the tech unable to be used without the rig (or at least be really clumsy), and then reward the suit rigger for specializing in suit rigging.  It doesn't need to fly in Shadowrun, but at least give it some Jump Jets to not crash land or to hop up a story or two.  It weighs too much for levitate to do much with, and it is counts as a super techie object when you target it with buff spells, so it's harder to augment, cloak, etc.  You can't just slap a fellow runner in one, as it loses many benefits unless you are wearing it directly (it doesn't fit right, they aren't interfaced, they may be accidentally fighting it as it moves, reduce the agility and mobility even if you are remote controlling it with a team member inside it). You can also apply the Brutus logic, or even just the fact of having to wear a power source  around limits it's range/capacity quite a bit.  Heavy hitter: Hell yes.  That's the fun part.  Short Range, limited duration, yes.  Weak spot: Power source.  EMP the thing and you are wearing a dumpster.  Have fun with that.

That's all I have at the moment, but I think that gets the idea across.  Dream big.

I think as far as getting from current state to this kind of model goes, these rigger types could be defined as Qualities that grant bonuses to these kinds of operations.  You could even gate them in tiers so that the Cocoon Rigger has to have "Master of the Web" as a quality in order to get the "Zen Response" quality that grants a perception boost and fast reaction to new events.

I'm not super-convinced the current rules structure of SR allows for the kind of high octane, remote mayhem, fly spy shenanigans you could attain with the rigger concepts in general, but I think there's room to write in some extras like these. 

Once again, sorry if 5E already did all this in some way and I'm the ignorant one.  Just couldn't get into that edition, so maybe it's already close and just needs some nudges.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2749
« Reply #44 on: (17:49:50/07-30-19) »
One thing that'd potentially make having a driver rather useful would be VTOLS that are reasonably cheap enough to get in chargen.

Having a Rigger drop the team off on the roof via chopper, then swing back and participate in the rest of the run via drones would be useful so very often.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.