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The Riggers Plight

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Typhus

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« Reply #45 on: <07-30-19/1858:38> »
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Having a Rigger drop the team off on the roof via chopper, then swing back and participate in the rest of the run via drones would be useful so very often.

Good example.  That brings to mind the idea of a specialist in this realm who may not actually own the resource in question, but has a better ability to acquire such on short notice (like a Rigger/Face build).  So, maybe the rigger doesn't own a VTOL themselves, but they know someone and can acquire one quickly.  Hell to pay if they take any damage, but that type of specialist rigger could duck the availability limits for a short window of time, like 1 hour per hit on the social skill test, pay a deposit, and if they violate the agreement, it burns the contact temporarily (sets to stats to 0/0, they have to build them back up with the usual means). 
« Last Edit: <07-30-19/1937:27> by Typhus »

Sphinx

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« Reply #46 on: <07-30-19/2115:29> »
Good example.  That brings to mind the idea of a specialist in this realm who may not actually own the resource in question, but has a better ability to acquire such on short notice (like a Rigger/Face build).  So, maybe the rigger doesn't own a VTOL themselves, but they know someone and can acquire one quickly.  Hell to pay if they take any damage, but that type of specialist rigger could duck the availability limits for a short window of time, like 1 hour per hit on the social skill test, pay a deposit, and if they violate the agreement, it burns the contact temporarily (sets to stats to 0/0, they have to build them back up with the usual means).

Suggested contact: Motorpool. Able to supply a rigger with any vehicle or drone with an Availability up to (2x Connection rating). Rigger makes a Negotiation (Availability, 1 hour) Extended Test to see how long it takes to procure the vehicle. Rigger pays 1% of the list price per day for the rental, plus a deposit of 20% that's refundable if the vehicle is returned undamaged.

Typhus

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« Reply #47 on: <07-30-19/2242:56> »
There you go!  I think what makes it harder to script in things like chases is that you (a) can't guarantee the group will have a rigger (B) that the player building the rigger has a chase-worthy vehicle.  Yay, there's a rigger, but oops, she's a Bulldog runner. 

With a Motor Pool feature/contact, they can pick what fits the mission profile.  Seems to allow the rigger and the GM more freedom.

Typhus

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« Reply #48 on: <07-30-19/2327:42> »
I thought I should answer these also.

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1) Other than weakening other roles (such as a mage), where do you think a Rigger needs improvement the most?

I can't speak to 5E, but I think riggers could stand be made to feel a little more special. Make it potent that they are on the team, not just an augment.  I think if they had some options to get out of the car, that could be good too.

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2) Roughly how often do you use vehicle chases? Would them being more common help or be a hassle?

Hard to script these in without a consistent character with a fast vehicle.  As mentioned earlier, expanding the pool of options lets the rigger fit the profile better, and unlocks more options for the GM too.

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3) Where are drones strong? Where are drones weak?
Can't speak to 5E, but I think drones should excel at their design purpose in other ways than just a variation on the stat array.

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4) Would you prefer a rigger focus be on vehicles or drones?
Neither.  I would say they should be allowed to decide which focus they want.

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5) Would you rather a rigger be better in meatspace or in the Matrix?
I would actually get the rigger almost entirely out of the Matrix.  I'm not down with the notion you have to go thru the matrix to run your drones.  This also extracts the rigger from the decker overlap, which would go some way towards keeping roles distinct.  It has some challenges I can foresee.  Here's some thoughts on that:
(A) Riggers need range using their own type of drone network, based around a transmitter that's based in their vehicle.  It's limited in range, like the old Signal rating attribute, so they have to get closer to the target, but unlike a decker, lack of Matrix stop being a problem for them.
(B) A rigger can choose to extend their range by going into the Matrix, and using matrix to run drones at a further reach, but this exposes them to being hacked via the matrix, Jumped In or not.
(C) How can deckers defend against drones?  Well, drones still have to have a signal receiver to accept commands or RCC feeds.  That can still be spoofed or snooped on.  More importantly though, drones have sensors which can be fed bad data.  All these are offline attacks though, at the EW level.  The decker isn't your best anti-drone screen.  Another rigger is.  They already have the kit to take on drone level EW and also have the gear to do sensor specific spoofs and bollixes like specialty chaff and flares that are calibrated to frag up drone sensors.  They already have the onboard signals that cue a drone into reboot mode, they just need to aim the tight beam link at the drone they are targeting and zap it.  Sensor warfare becomes a new domain for riggers to specialize in that deckers can only dabble in. 

No rigger on you team?  You should feel freaked about enemy drones chasing you down and having limited options for defense.  You can jam them, sure, but they should still have potent enough software included that their default dogbrain isn't hapless half-statted mess without a rigger.  Make combat drones terrifying, but shorter on range and slower and less agile without a rigger.

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6) What do you like about being a Rigger?

The idea of a rigger.  The ability to do movie level stunts with vehicles or field a menacing army of killbots, or supplement the team with a couple extra points of threat like dobermans.

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7) What are the worst aspects of being a Rigger?

Being stuck in the car or waiting outside.  Drones solve some of this.  Getting an expensive ride fragged up without it being able to shine in a fight.  Witness the SCN 6e live play where the pickup gets subjected to grunt fire and is half destroyed from one exchange.  That was not a fun round for the player or character.

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8 ) Would you prefer drones to be cheap and disposable or expensive and durable?
As others have noted, each type priced with it's own intent.  Combat drones should be pricey.  Recon drones should be cheap.  I would also introduce the idea of salvage.  So you can take two scragged drones and use those parts to repair a third, or at least reduce the out of pocket costs.  For example, the drone provide a number of units of salvage equal to its remaining boxes of condition monitor or half its body, whichever is (more?).  You can have limits on how that salvage is applied, maybe it's only for drone of that same model, or same locomotion, or same type, or whatever.  Let riggers loot the fallen vehicles and drones to offset repair costs, or save up for a bad day proactively.  It also feeds that nice tinkerer idea mentioned by others, and adds to the list of things deckers can't do.

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9) Are vehicle prices appropriate for the times when the Rigger gets to show off their toys or do they cost too much vs how often they are used?

Can't speak to 5E, but it sounds like the costs are not aligned with the system guidelines on jobs in that edition.  I think one of the pains of being a rigger is that you buy into a certain build, but you have no idea if that build will be useful on the run.  With motor pool contacts, a salvage system and special tinkering rules, the rigger can now be a mechanical improvisational specialist who solves your problems with their specialty knowledge. 
Rigger: "What we need here is a drone that can cloak.  Let me make some calls."
Runners: "You know someone with those?" 
Rigger: "Don't need to.  I know where to get the parts.  Gimme a couple hours."

Make the rigger's investment in versatility and you have a transporter for all occasions, not just a few.  Who will you want on your team?  The guy who won't get out of his van, or the guy who can rustle up a hovercraft and slap an EM system in it if that's what the job needs?  Vehicular fixer in both senses of the word.

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10) Fill in the blank - Tell me what your ideal Rigger looks like, where they do for the team, and what else you'd like to see them do.

See above, I think.  Now I can specialize in things like smuggling because I never use the same vehicle twice, and I can improvise some new tricks on the fly if they upgraded the border since the last time I crossed it.  I probably have my "rigger kit" I can bring along to adapt any vehicle to at least half-arsed neural control to some benefit if it's not rigged, plus a custom EM/ECCM suite that takes up a passenger space worth of room so I can run my drones and spoof and spam the enemy ones we encounter.  If that kit makes it out of the flaming wreck, I can jack a new ride and have it halfway rig ready in about an hour.  Less if I roll well and you stop asking me dumb questions while I work. 

Hold this cannister of superfuel while I rig the engine to not explode when I inject it straight into the converter.  I need to make sure we can clear the moat on the other side of the security fence after we crash through it.  I told you we were doing that, right?  Why else did you think I said we needed "burner car"?  How are we getting out again?  This facility has a garage doesn't it?  It'll be fine.

That would feel fun, no matter what we're doing.

Typhus

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« Reply #49 on: <07-30-19/2340:41> »
Oh, and also now take that same rigger I described and let them drive their "baby" vehicle that is customized to their exacting specs.  That puppy should feel ridiculously potent by comparison to anything else, with some gestalt abilities not just from customization tweaks only they can provide, but from the vehicle rig as well.  When they do take her out for a spin, it's game ON.

Hephaestus

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« Reply #50 on: <07-30-19/2344:47> »
Why not let riggers actually be a version of Tony Stark?  Why not let them rig some battle armor?  Make the tech unable to be used without the rig (or at least be really clumsy), and then reward the suit rigger for specializing in suit rigging.  It doesn't need to fly in Shadowrun, but at least give it some Jump Jets to not crash land or to hop up a story or two.  It weighs too much for levitate to do much with, and it is counts as a super techie object when you target it with buff spells, so it's harder to augment, cloak, etc.  You can't just slap a fellow runner in one, as it loses many benefits unless you are wearing it directly (it doesn't fit right, they aren't interfaced, they may be accidentally fighting it as it moves, reduce the agility and mobility even if you are remote controlling it with a team member inside it). You can also apply the Brutus logic, or even just the fact of having to wear a power source  around limits it's range/capacity quite a bit.  Heavy hitter: Hell yes.  That's the fun part.  Short Range, limited duration, yes.  Weak spot: Power source.  EMP the thing and you are wearing a dumpster.  Have fun with that.

I've been combing the rules looking for ways to do exactly this since I started playing a Rigger. It would definitely not be an all occasions thing, but if you know you're going in loud, it would be pretty awesome if the rigger could literally be the tank for a short while.

Oh, and also now take that same rigger I described and let them drive their "baby" vehicle that is customized to their exacting specs.  That puppy should feel ridiculously potent by comparison to anything else, with some gestalt abilities not just from customization tweaks only they can provide, but from the vehicle rig as well.  When they do take her out for a spin, it's game ON.

Agreed. The vehicle mod rules in Rigger 5.0 are clunky, and making the vehicle you want is near impossible without starting in debt.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #51 on: <07-30-19/2345:54> »
Good example.  That brings to mind the idea of a specialist in this realm who may not actually own the resource in question, but has a better ability to acquire such on short notice (like a Rigger/Face build).  So, maybe the rigger doesn't own a VTOL themselves, but they know someone and can acquire one quickly.  Hell to pay if they take any damage, but that type of specialist rigger could duck the availability limits for a short window of time, like 1 hour per hit on the social skill test, pay a deposit, and if they violate the agreement, it burns the contact temporarily (sets to stats to 0/0, they have to build them back up with the usual means).

Suggested contact: Motorpool. Able to supply a rigger with any vehicle or drone with an Availability up to (2x Connection rating). Rigger makes a Negotiation (Availability, 1 hour) Extended Test to see how long it takes to procure the vehicle. Rigger pays 1% of the list price per day for the rental, plus a deposit of 20% that's refundable if the vehicle is returned undamaged.
Wasn't there the favour system in sr5 where one kind of favour was borrowing X worth of equipment?
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Hephaestus

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« Reply #52 on: <07-30-19/2348:12> »
Wasn't there the favour system in sr5 where one kind of favour was borrowing X worth of equipment?

I think so, but I read it as a one-time deal. The suggested "Motorpool" contact sounds like a more stable connection for vehicles/drones/upgrades.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #53 on: <07-31-19/0015:58> »
Yeah so basically a contact with preferred payment nuyen who focuses on favours?
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Hephaestus

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« Reply #54 on: <07-31-19/1359:04> »
Yeah so basically a contact with preferred payment nuyen who focuses on favours?

I mean, you could frame it that way. But in my mind, the role would be closer to a Fixer than someone doing you a favor. A favor implies they are going above and beyond on your behalf, whereas a Fixer takes your money in exchange for goods and services (in this case rental services). They aren't doing you any favors, and with average loyalty (2-3) you would expect them to want what they rented out to you back in the same condition you got it in (or else incur fees/beatings/shortened life expectancy).
« Last Edit: <07-31-19/2046:25> by Hephaestus »

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #55 on: <08-05-19/1120:00> »
So, the "word on the street" is that Riggers are worse off in 6th than they were in 5e.  :(

I'm still waiting on the PDF to verify for myself.

Good example.  That brings to mind the idea of a specialist in this realm who may not actually own the resource in question, but has a better ability to acquire such on short notice (like a Rigger/Face build).  So, maybe the rigger doesn't own a VTOL themselves, but they know someone and can acquire one quickly.  Hell to pay if they take any damage, but that type of specialist rigger could duck the availability limits for a short window of time, like 1 hour per hit on the social skill test, pay a deposit, and if they violate the agreement, it burns the contact temporarily (sets to stats to 0/0, they have to build them back up with the usual means).

Suggested contact: Motorpool. Able to supply a rigger with any vehicle or drone with an Availability up to (2x Connection rating). Rigger makes a Negotiation (Availability, 1 hour) Extended Test to see how long it takes to procure the vehicle. Rigger pays 1% of the list price per day for the rental, plus a deposit of 20% that's refundable if the vehicle is returned undamaged.

20%?  Really?  Lemme guess, you are one of those people that think the vehicle repair rules in 5e are just fine, aren't you?

The cheapest VTOL vehicle in 5e is 85k Nuyen.  Why VTOL?  Because it was the vehicle type that inspired this line of thought - as teams really need access to them from time to time.

20% of that is 17k Nuyen.  Sure, it gets refunded if nothing happens to the vehicle, but the Rigger still needs 17k Nuyen up font.

And that brings us to the question; "If the Rigger is capable of having 17k Nuyen (or more) available at the drop of a hat...  Why are they running again?"

Of course, the 850 Nuyen per day isn't too bad.

penllawen

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« Reply #56 on: <08-05-19/1129:44> »
Typhus -- I love that post.

Marcus

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« Reply #57 on: <08-05-19/1203:31> »
ISP you do understand if you buy the PDF to verify you're supporting 6e right?
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #58 on: <08-05-19/1344:43> »
ISP you do understand if you buy the PDF to verify you're supporting 6e right?

Seriously?  You think that really needed to be said?  Wow....

Hobbes

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« Reply #59 on: <08-05-19/1512:52> »
So, the "word on the street" is that Riggers are worse off in 6th than they were in 5e.  :(



IMO the Vehicle Control Rig is a mechanical trap option.  A high reaction Street Samurai with a 5 in Piloting will have the same dice pool as a Jumped in Rigger with a Level 3 Control Rig. 

So your racing scenario upthread doesn't even need the arbitrary restraints.  Give 'em both a Racing bike, let the Rigger Jump in, it's basically even odds. 

The VCR gives +1 Dice to Vehicle tests but you've got to be jumped in so you're stuck using Intuition.  Reaction is a lot easier to boost than Intuition so the Samurai can be +/- 1 or 2 of the Riggers pool for any Piloting tests.