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The Riggers Plight

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adzling

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« Reply #30 on: (17:57:02/07-12-19) »
Your disposable recon drones should run 50 to 100 Nuyen at most.  Spirits are free and do it better in many cases. 

Combat drones should be expensive, effective, and have overflow boxes so they stop functioning, but are still repairable.  Same with Vehicles.  And even if they fill the overflow boxes some salvage value should be retained.  Combat loss is not a total loss.

Repair rules should be you need a toolkit, parts (aka Nuyen), and time.  And they should be automatic or low threshold tests.  IRL there are very few car repairs you can't do in your driveway with hand tools.  Shops should be a bonus.  Fabrication should be NPCs, but if you have one, you no longer need to buy parts.

xclnt post hobbes +2 from me!

Hobbes

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« Reply #31 on: (18:24:51/07-12-19) »
Thanks!  People like to tell me I really get Riggers.  Especially Snake people   ;) ;D :P

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #32 on: (11:09:41/07-14-19) »
Well Wakshaani, only 6 people have posted a response to your questions.

I dunno if that is an indication of how many people play Riggers, how many people even think about Riggers, or how many people even care about Riggers.

My inner ego monster wants to think that it just shows that every other person agrees with me and felt they couldn't add any further.  :P

I wish you good luck in figuring out how to weight this input.  ;)

Wakshaani

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« Reply #33 on: (11:41:20/07-14-19) »
It's early yet! :D And this isn't the heaviest board for Shadowrun-related stuff. I'll need to expand things elsewhere and put together a more detailed questionnaire possibly.

BUT!

The general thrust is there. Once we get problems identified then we can work on solutions. I already have a few popping around inside my noggin but it'll take a while to get things in place.

Still, a good start, and thanks to everyone who's joined in thusfar and to those who have yet to follow up.

Singularity

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« Reply #34 on: (11:43:37/07-14-19) »
Well Wakshaani, only 6 people have posted a response to your questions.

I dunno if that is an indication of how many people play Riggers, how many people even think about Riggers, or how many people even care about Riggers.

My inner ego monster wants to think that it just shows that every other person agrees with me and felt they couldn't add any further.  :P

I wish you good luck in figuring out how to weight this input.  ;)

Some of us haven't played Shadowrun before, and need the 6E book to drop so that we can find out how they work (or don't) and then offer feedback from there.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #35 on: (12:15:49/07-14-19) »
I GM, and my wife refuses to touch the forum with an 11-foot carbon pole. So alas, neither of us can share here.
CorpSec when an alarm is triggered;: "This is so sad, Alexa play Shoot The Runner"

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #36 on: (15:45:25/07-14-19) »
Some of us haven't played Shadowrun before, and need the 6E book to drop so that we can find out how they work (or don't) and then offer feedback from there.

That is a very valid point.  It is one we are all - well those of us who don't have access to the 6e CRB - waiting on.

From what has been said, 6e will address some of the issues brought up in this thread.
On the flip side, based on the Rigger QSR Dossier the majority of the Control Rig bonus has been reduced to generating 1 Edge.

Admittedly, the QSR may have nothing to do with what is in the CRB*, so there is still a chance that a large portion of this thread will be moot.

*I don't get why you would release a product that doesn't accurately reflect the main product.  Then again, I've never been the target audience for Beginner / Starter rules.

Singularity

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« Reply #37 on: (16:57:14/07-14-19) »

Admittedly, the QSR may have nothing to do with what is in the CRB*, so there is still a chance that a large portion of this thread will be moot.

*I don't get why you would release a product that doesn't accurately reflect the main product.  Then again, I've never been the target audience for Beginner / Starter rules.

Actually, from my experience it fairly typical for beginner's boxed set rules to differ at least somewhat from the full rules. Not too much, as it then defeats the purpose of giving people an idea of what your game is about, but enough so that it's noticeable (especially when creating characters using the full rules). I have the Shadowrun boxed set, but not having played it before I have no frame of reference until I can get the main rule book in my hands.

BeCareful

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« Reply #38 on: (23:06:36/07-14-19) »
I've never played as one, but I'd like to. So, here's what I think:

1) "Where does Rigging need improvement?" I honestly don't know. I do think seperate skills for piloting and mechanic-related tinkering for different classes of vehicle would help, especially if Jumping In let you substitute something for each of those skills. Getting an intuitive brain-computer-interface with your drone/vehicle should certainly help in driving whatever it is, but getting an understanding of how to modify it.

2) "How often does vehicular action turn up?" Since I've had groups that have fallen to bits after the first few runs, about half of them? That still isn't very many. Still, none of them have been the "try to outrun racing bikes in a van" scenario, usually since every runner I've been with has had their own sort of transportation. The decker incites crashes, the magician does magic, whoever's Rigging attracts attention/sideswipes anyone in those flimsy bikes, and everyone else uses guns.

3) "Strength/weaknesses of drones:" While they do mean you don't have to risk yourself, the situational irony is that it's faster and easier for the Rigger to recover than any of their drones. Having overflow would certainly help, maybe with another rule that broken-but-not-totalled drones could still be able to limp away. Making them less expensive would result in more people buying them even if they didn't have a Control Rig, but they could still invite Rigger Access to them, letting the whole team help 'em out! Also, with the repair rules in 5th, GMs may have to be nice by giving them parts to scavenge, either off of trash mob drones they find, or contacts.

4) "Drone/Vehicle Preference?" I go both ways. Sort of like (incoming tangent) how I wish Mystic Adepts could either be Adepts With A Couple Spells or Spellcasters With A Little Qi, without being either bad at both or too good at both. Though this also depends on the setting. We're going to be spending time away from any metroplex? The Rigger wants an armoured van that's bristling with weaponry? That works! We're going to be infiltrating a big, well-ventilated office building? Break out the Kanmushi & Fly-Spies!

5) "Meatspace or Matrix?" Either? Would it be a good idea to have a Control Rig help out even when you aren't Jumped In? Aren't RCCs able to get around Pilot limitations anyway? I don't really mind drone dicepools always being lower than most people's, since drones are supposed to be more replaceable than characters.

6) "What Do I Like About It?" Other than the idea of Being Your Car, or putting a cowboy hat & trenchcoat on your Duelist and pretending it's you, the idea of having a bunch of little robots that people will underestimate until you jump into them and use your dicepools for stuff. Or having a customized vehicle that I'd get to show off, instead of having to leave it in the garage when the Mission text reads, "You all show up on time to the meet, and Mr. Johnson says you'll all have to get smuggled across the border in this shipping container."

7) "Worst Aspects?" As usual, when your precious, expensive baby explodes, or falls into the ocean, or can't be salvaged in some other way. Then the Force Large spirit that hit it with a Lightning Bolt gets fought by a spirit called in by your mage, and they resort to Astral Combat so you can't even see it go down.

Cool Shades Face) "Cheap & Disposable vs. Expensive & Durable?" While there should be options for both, I'd probably rather start out with one or two sturdy drones I can modify more later, and pick up a cheap infiltration-based one or two later. Or equip one of those robot baby drones with a self-destruct system. To trick the target into picking up; I don't want to be known as the runner who throws exploding babies at people. Oh, and as for cars, I'd prefer stealth systems like spoof chips & electrochromic coatings so I won't have to ditch them for new ones every so often.

9) "Vehicle Costs:" I think they're about okay where they are? Maybe a bit less, because of repair costs, and if they don't get used enough.

10) "Fill In The Blanks!" Right now, I see Rigging as support work: they can help infiltrate, place a mobile bug somewhere, assisst with an extra hail of bullets, watch everyone's backs, and effect a "NOW NOW NOW!" kind of escape. Really, all I hope for are cheaper drone costs, cheaper repairs (one might lead to the other), Control Rigs that provide some benefit even without Jumping In, and, if possible, spirits having a harder time noticing/affecting drones. Making drones a weakness for spirits might help be a balancing factor, preferably if the drones don't have to be loaded with sniper rifles doing Focused Bursts with APDS or spraying Blight on them.

Also: I don't mind if drones are made more accessible. As I mentioned before, it wouldn't water down the Rigging role so much as help with the "Nobody Can Do That Better Than I Can" comparison. More so if you let the Rigger Rig with your drone as well. If the other characters even invest in a drone in the first place.
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Beta

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« Reply #39 on: (09:32:56/07-15-19) »
Well Wakshaani, only 6 people have posted a response to your questions.

I dunno if that is an indication of how many people play Riggers, how many people even think about Riggers, or how many people even care about Riggers.

My inner ego monster wants to think that it just shows that every other person agrees with me and felt they couldn't add any further.  :P

I wish you good luck in figuring out how to weight this input.  ;)

I think one factor too could be that the forums of late have been almost nothing but arguing about 6th edition in various ways, with most threads, whatever their original intent, eventually arriving at variations on why people already hate 6th edition, what it should have been, and whether Catalyst is ignorant or actively hates ShadowRun (maybe a slight bit of exaggeration here, but it is certainly how it has been feeling to me).  Which, IMO,  makes the place pretty unpleasant for anyone who isn't invested in such arguments. 

I suspect that a lot of people have given up checking in here, or assumed that this thread would have just turned into 'how 6th edition has killed Riggers', or something like that.  (This thread has remained remarkably constructive, which honestly has amazed me a bit given the overall environment around here lately). 

Jawsey  --
speechthought

BeCareful

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« Reply #40 on: (13:43:59/07-15-19) »
Yeah, I originally thought I wouldn't be able to add much, until I realized I had something to offer that's in short supply right now: positivity!

Plus, from what it sounds, Rigging has been tough in most editions, and 6th is looking to make it both easier and more fun. So there's hopefully that.
"Welcome to Shadowrun, where the biggest obstacle is you!"