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Heavy Pistols vs. Automatic Pistols

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Lipe82

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« on: (13:58:28/06-11-19) »
Have you guys made any changes to actually differentiate these two types of guns?

I've been considering putting together some rules (similar to original SR "modes of fire") to make the choice between these two actually impact the game, maybe adapt some Full Auto for rifles as well.

I would love some ideas.
« Last Edit: (14:10:33/06-11-19) by Lipe82 »

Rapier

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« Reply #1 on: (14:37:56/06-11-19) »
Hi,

The recoil on a 9mm is pretty hard to control on a double tap; granted with augs and everything its feasable but I would use the rules for machine pistols or SMG.


Lipe82

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« Reply #2 on: (14:43:44/06-11-19) »
I would use the rules for machine pistols or SMG.

I didn't know of these. What/where are these rules?

Tecumseh

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« Reply #3 on: (00:34:10/06-12-19) »
I don't differentiate between them. I think the narrative differences are enough. I personally don't feel that they need mechanical differences.

For me, the bigger issue is machine pistols vs. SMGs, given that machine pistols are -2 at Near and SMGs are OK and everything else is the same. I don't feel like there's enough narrative differences between machine pistols and SMGs to warrant the difference.

One change I do make is that Assault Rifles are -2 at Close range. That gives SMGs a niche to fill so that assault rifles aren't obviously better at everything (except concealability).

Lipe82

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« Reply #4 on: (16:16:10/06-12-19) »
I think the narrative differences are enough.

I may still come up with something, because I do miss some crunch difference between them.
That said, could you give a few examples of how these 2 types of weapon could drive the narrative to significantly different ways?

Tecumseh

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« Reply #5 on: (14:02:02/06-13-19) »
A heavy pistol would have a heavier caliber round while a machine pistol could have a lower caliber round. Maybe the heavy pistol does a better job of shooting through cover, or of shooting a door lock. Meanwhile the machine pistol is better for suppressive fire, or for putting a bunch of bullets on a small target where all you need is one to be effective (like a window, or a tire).

And you can dress things up differently too. Maybe the 6P for a heavy pistol is a single, grievous wound. Maybe the 6P from a machine pistol is multiple smaller wounds. Same goes for the non-hits. Maybe a heavy pistol misses completely, while maybe a machine pistol actual hits but is just completely ineffective. One of my favorite pieces of shadowtalk from the Street Samurai Catalog is a quip about the Crusader Machine Pistol:

>>>>>[Wonderful. Now I can flatten light ammo against body armor faster than ever before.]<<<<< -Steel Lynx <22:18:01/12-16-50>

And so on. That's what I mean by narrative differences.

Lipe82

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« Reply #6 on: (11:17:24/06-15-19) »
Cool bits.
Still, on my idea to bring some mechanics to it, I though this:

>>>> Automatic weapons allow players to 'buy successes/hits' with their dice, instead of rolling.
>Auto pistols: 4dice per hit
>Rifles and SMGs: 3 dice per hit

After using it (twice for pistol, thrice for Rifle/SMG) player needs to spend an action reloading/unbricking/adjusting the gun.

>> MG would work similarly to smgs, but would last longer before reloading.

>>Heavy Pistols: players can exchange 4 dice to turn 1 damage into AP damage.
Ex: my gun deals 7damage, and I roll 7 dice on Firearms + Agility.
I could roll 3 dice instead, and assuming it connects, at least 1 damage hits the physical monitor straight.

How does it sound?
I would love to hear the opinions of Tecumseh, Gingivitis and all the good Anarchy folks.

Gingivitis

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« Reply #7 on: (15:50:03/06-17-19) »
The idea of trading dice for hits is interesting. I like that it speeds up the action.

I don't feel the same about the reload action. That narration is going to be wasted (in that the story will not progress for anyone). Wasted narrations are never good for anyone.

You could potentially put the weapon on Cooldown (cannot use it in the next Narration without spending a Plot Point). It has the advantage of being a mechanic that already exists. Maybe MGs don't go on cooldown.

I would use the same cost for all weapons, to keep it consistant. That's just me though.

The major issue with adding mechanics to weapons is that weapons are free to start. If two weapons are free, the obvious choice is to pick the best weapon. By adding mechanics, you run the risk of making good weapons better. That is why I and a lot of others, change Assault Rifles to -2 Close.

The heavy pistol AP is an interesting mechanic. I would make it 3 for that one too. The benefit is not that game changing because other attackers need to get get through the armor anyway.

The only real way to do this is to play test it. If you find that people ignore the new mechanics, or they take up more time than they need to keep the story flowing, you will have your answer. Tell us how it goes!
Shadowrun: Anarchy Resources (GM Screens, Character Sheets, New NPCs, House Rules) at: www.surprisethreat.com

Tecumseh

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« Reply #8 on: (14:35:38/06-18-19) »
I've toyed with ideas about buying hits but haven't implemented or tested anything. The concept is somewhat awkward in Anarchy where, in theory, every action is an opposed roll. (For example, Very Easy actions "oppose" you with 4 dice.) Now, in practice, I don't like the extra dice rolling so I often default to thresholds similar to what SR5 uses. In that case, buying hits is a good way to guarantee that you get the 1 or 2 hits that you need, which cuts down on dice rolling and speeds things up.

I would use the same conversion rate for all weapons. To echo Gingivitis' point, don't make rifles more attractive than they already are. You might be able to make an exception for machine guns, since narratively they're so much different than small arms, even automatic small arms.

Gingivitis' suggestion around Cooldown is an interesting idea. I would use it as-written so you don't have to support the bookkeeping of "how many times in a row was this used?" Anarchy got rid of ammo for a reason; similarly, I wouldn't want to track how many times in a row someone has done something. Keeping it to a binary response ("did they do the same thing last time, Y/N?") is about as much as I want to do personally.

As for the AP approach, I might not be in the best position to opine on that because armor is one of my least-favorite aspects of Anarchy. I've been experimenting with different house rules to bypass the "armor as hit points" approach that Anarchy uses, so my experiences won't be directly applicable to your AP suggestion. I will say that, from a mathematical standpoint, losing 4 dice to get 1 point of Armor Avoidance seems like a bad deal. I'd be more inclined to make it a 1:1 ratio, so that every die you give up gives you 1 point of AA. This not only bypasses armor (which, as noted, is a plus in my book) and turns into a fun risk/reward equation for the player as they try to judge how deeply they can cut their dice pool before they face a substantial risk of missing the shot altogether.

Lipe82

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« Reply #9 on: (21:05:50/06-25-19) »
@Tecumseh - I also don't like the "armor = extra HP" approach, maybe we should make another thread for ideas regarding alternatives? Overall, my biggest problem with it is that it makes armor way less life-saving than it would in classic SR5.

On another news... is the Cooldown mechanic official/raw?

Gingivitis

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« Reply #10 on: (02:29:26/06-26-19) »
Cooldown is an optional rule along with target tokens. Pg 54 iirc.
Shadowrun: Anarchy Resources (GM Screens, Character Sheets, New NPCs, House Rules) at: www.surprisethreat.com

Tecumseh

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« Reply #11 on: (13:30:03/06-26-19) »
P. 57 for Cooldown.

Lip82 had an armor thread about a month ago so I might just hijack that with my ideas, none of which are perfect. I had to go back two years to find the post where I had originally written them out. Sadly, I haven't figured out a better system in the meantime.