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Excessive defense and low reward?

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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #15 on: (05:15:22/05-18-19) »
Well, if a spell is on an area, then it wouldn't be moving, so it wouldn't end up intersecting with a ward...

mcv

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« Reply #16 on: (09:54:05/05-18-19) »
mcv, reread the section on Astral Intersections (p. 316) again. A spell, would qualify as an astral form which is bound to a physical object (the spell is tied to the person it is cast upon). When the person passes through a barrier it causes an astral intersection and the two would make an opposed test.
I f this is the case, I'm surprised that the rules don't state this explicitly. A person with a spell cast on them walking through a mana barrier seems like the most obvious case. The fact that the rules resort to elevators and vans to explain this, suggests strongly that this rule is not meant for the simple case of a person walking through. If it was, why not simply say so? The section sounds like it's dealing with exceptions and edge cases, rather than the simple most common case.

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If the spell fails the test, then it is disrupted and ends. That's why spells are listed in the list of things that can be disrupted.

Dual-natured creatures have an astral form, so they are subject to the same limitations as other astral forms, so they can't walk through a ward without being subject to an astral intersection.
So what happens when a dual natured creature is disrupted? Do they stop being dual natured? The rules also say that if the ability is inherent, like with Adept powers, the mana barrier doesn't stop you.

Maybe if it's just astral perception that makes you dual natured, the astral perception stops working but can be reactivated once you're through? That makes astral perception a cheap way to try to destroy a mana barrier. Unless your astral perception is inherent, in which case it doesn't disrupt the barrier.

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Pushing through a barrier is available to any awakened creature, but it takes an action, so they wouldn't be able to do it without warning. If you are trying to move any active magical effect through a ward, you would need to push through.
So basically the options are: you push through carefully, or you take a 50/50 chance of destroying the barrier, or you can cast a spell from outside to inside with a chance it gets resisted.

In our case, the spell was Invisibility. The street sam got Invisibility cast on her and went inside. The mage was already bummed by the barrier, but if the spell had destroyed the barrier for him, I bet he'd have been pretty happy. He could also have cast a spell through the barrier on the street sam once he was inside, and as long as it's not a normally resisted spell (which most buffs are not), then there's a pretty good chance the spell will be successful.

All in all, using the intersection rules for a spell passing through the barrier seems rather dramatic and makes the barrier very vulnerable.

In any case, this seems like a very badly written rule. It would have been very simple to treat spells more explicitly than letting us deduce it from astral patterns and examples with vans.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #17 on: (10:12:28/05-18-19) »
Badly explained, yes. But the rule itself is a good counter-measure. Don't forget wards are small and expensive.

Note that one example is 2 spells clashing though, and one involves a dual-natured person. It also explicitly notes that disrupted spirits poof while disrupted living creatures go k.o., so dual-natureds are clearly identified there.
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Voran

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« Reply #18 on: (04:38:46/05-19-19) »
I've always felt the missions format (and most published adventures) tend to really lowball rewards.  And then things like, "And we want to prevent looting." reminders.

Then usually combined with the "must use negotiation to increase rewards" combined with notes of, "Contact/Mr J gets really annoyed when money grubbing runners ask for more money."  And even when you max rewards, its still pretty lowball...and you've annoyed your Mr J.  I've never understood the milkrun offerings for things that rarely stay milk-runs.  I noted it in another thread but, unless you get expenses covered, it can be easy to barely break even after a mission run. 

Doing a quick looksee on the missions I have, I'd easily make base pay something like 3x the maximum normal offering.  Generally it just feels like the 'negotiate for more pay' is there to give the face something to do, shoehorned in by mechanically lowballing the players.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #19 on: (06:46:58/05-19-19) »
Most Missions pay a rather normal amount in SR5 if you compare them to the reward advice from Core, even if some examples may not (though those often tend to go 'okay there's rewards possible afterwards due to the extra circumstances'). As for 'prevent looting' reminders: Dragon Song paid quite well, but if all the enemy gear was stolen and fenced at 30%, each CMP there would grant 3x the money to insane amounts. For a level playing field for different tables, preventing looting is 100% a must.
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mcv

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« Reply #20 on: (15:59:56/05-19-19) »
Badly explained, yes. But the rule itself is a good counter-measure. Don't forget wards are small and expensive.
If they're expensive, should they be so easily destroyed? As for small, I consider the size of a small building not that small.

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Note that one example is 2 spells clashing though,
Two mana barriers.

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and one involves a dual-natured person. It also explicitly notes that disrupted spirits poof while disrupted living creatures go k.o., so dual-natureds are clearly identified there.
Good point. I missed that. So crashing through with astral perception on is very dangerous, but pushing through is very safe.

I must say, the more I understand them, the less sense mana barriers make to me. They are expensive but easy to disrupt. They are either dangerous or harmless if you take a moment to push through them. They're an obstacle, sure, but not a very hard one if you have some time. In combat, they can be nasty because you don't have that time.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #21 on: (16:37:42/05-19-19) »
Weaker stuff fails, unprepared fail, quickening faces problems, it recovers in 1 turn and the caster knows when it's attacked or breaks. It's a good security mechanism.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #22 on: (18:01:57/05-19-19) »
Weaker stuff fails, unprepared fail, quickening faces problems, it recovers in 1 turn and the caster knows when it's attacked or breaks. It's a good security mechanism.

Yeah. Itís more an alarm than a barrier.

mcv

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« Reply #23 on: (10:35:50/05-20-19) »
Weaker stuff fails, unprepared fail, quickening faces problems, it recovers in 1 turn
Only when it's a permanent ward. A temporary ward from a ritual is still easily disrupted by a spell, from what I understand.

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the caster knows when it's attacked or breaks. It's a good security mechanism.
That's certainly true. An alarm that can't be hacked is worth quite a bit too in Shadowrun.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #24 on: (11:08:18/05-20-19) »
Weaker stuff fails, unprepared fail, quickening faces problems, it recovers in 1 turn
Only when it's a permanent ward. A temporary ward from a ritual is still easily disrupted by a spell, from what I understand.

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the caster knows when it's attacked or breaks. It's a good security mechanism.
That's certainly true. An alarm that can't be hacked is worth quite a bit too in Shadowrun.

It can be hacked. It just takes a bit of effort and traditionally the masking meta magic. Though that might not be necessary in certain editions Iím not sure.

Usually you assence the ward. Astral search the mage. Get their signature. Mimic it and go through the ward.

mcv

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« Reply #25 on: (05:06:00/05-22-19) »
Get their signature. Mimic it
Is that possible?

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #26 on: (08:50:22/05-22-19) »
Get their signature. Mimic it
Is that possible?

It was in every edition so far. Has not come up yet in 5e at my table but I presume itís still possible. The needed metamagic might vary by edition.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #27 on: (09:21:22/05-22-19) »
Get their signature. Mimic it
Is that possible?
Assense their signature to identify it, Memorise it so you can recall it, Flexible Signature to change yours and add Initiation to the threshold, so they need to hit threshold 1 to identify the signature and threshold 2 to realise it's a fake.
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #28 on: (12:44:43/05-22-19) »
Get their signature. Mimic it
Is that possible?

It was in every edition so far. Has not come up yet in 5e at my table but I presume itís still possible. The needed metamagic might vary by edition.

It is called "Fooling Wards" which is written up in Street Grimoire, pg 135. To do so, you either need Flexible Signature and use the Astral Doppelganger ritual, or learn an additional metamagic, Flux, to be able to put your aura in a state of flux to trick the ward. Just using Flexible Signature (without the ritual) to make your aura appear the same isn't quite enough to trick a ward into letting you pass undetected.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #29 on: (15:32:04/05-22-19) »
Get their signature. Mimic it
Is that possible?

It was in every edition so far. Has not come up yet in 5e at my table but I presume itís still possible. The needed metamagic might vary by edition.

It is called "Fooling Wards" which is written up in Street Grimoire, pg 135. To do so, you either need Flexible Signature and use the Astral Doppelganger ritual, or learn an additional metamagic, Flux, to be able to put your aura in a state of flux to trick the ward. Just using Flexible Signature (without the ritual) to make your aura appear the same isn't quite enough to trick a ward into letting you pass undetected.

Yeesh. Every edition they make it worse. Sneaking past a ward should be possible without any initiations. Itís a pretty core thing it would be like making a decker by an availability 16 deck so he can hack security cameras. You should be able to astrally scout and get more than a, um itís warded.  Itís one of the reasons the mistake adept was so bad. It gave up nothing because astrally scouting was so easily thwarted if you didnít have multiple ducking initiations geared to just fool wards and assensing. Initiations should be there to make you better at it or to make your ward harder to sneak past. Not to gain access to a core function.