NEWS

SR 6 info

  • 425 Replies
  • 8993 Views

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1747
« Reply #405 on: (18:32:31/06-13-19) »
While I suspect the game will be playable I think some core issues will be driving me insane.

1. Armor not adding to soak. The math for how much damage you take on average might end up working but thematically itís crap.

2. Strength not effecting melee damage values of weapons so a 1 strength dude swings a axe hits just as hard as a 15 strength troll. Yes edge but whether you use edge or not the default should be heavily in 15 strengths favor. Whatís insane to me is when moving from 4e to 5e they boosted the defect of strength on dc as it was seen as too weak of an effect in 4e. And they not only reversed course but made it a far far smaller effect than even 4e. I have a hard time articulating how bad I think this is. Though again the math for a functioning mechanically game may actually work. I doubt it since it oddly adds to unarmed damage which makes me think this is some editing error or multiple people working on the same section and not communicating. Still even if the math works, You just have to remove your brain for it thematically work.

3. How hard it will be to kill in one shot with certain weapons. This isnít a tootsie pop where it takes 3 licks to get to the center. If Iím shooting random unsuspecting unarmored goon with a heavy pistol how many dice do you think you should need to drop them in one shot on average. If you said 24 youíd be right in 6e. Called shot might drop that a couple dice. Edge a couple more but should you need edge to do something that basic?  12 dice should be plenty for something like this. Like almost overkill, padding for a bad roll type thing at 12 dice.

While low base damages are part of the problem a big part is the change since 4e away from damage staging. 1 hit per dv is a smooth bell curve but with high base damage and fixed TNs of 5 hits are never grazing or flesh wounds without ludicrous soak pools. But with low base damage killing someone in one shot is for 30 dice shooters which is just as crazy. Faster scaling of damage either through a reduced fixed TN or more dc per net hit would help this.

Quick example HP base dv 3. If the TN was 4 9 net hits or. 18 die pool vs unsuspecting target would get you to 12 dc-2 for soak to 10. 18vs 24 is an improvement. TN 3 you could get by with 14ish dice. Problem is with a TN change which while I think it does a better job of reinforcing the differences in skill levels is a change that requires more changes like threshold tests etc. Now if every net hit raised your base DV by 2 and you soaked 2 per hit you might see something interesting. 3 base damage youíd need 5 net hits to comfortably kill random 3 body guy. 15 die pool vs 24. Not the 12 I want but much better imo.

Also even with a middling body you might see flesh wounds when a enemy just barely hits you with bigger weapons. The shotgun grazed your shoulder. Base damage 5? 1 net hit to 7. A body 4 gets a lucky roll and 2 hits edges gets 1 more and knocks it down to 1 damage. Now youíd have to change a couple other things like maybe if called shots boost damage by 2dv still youíd have to bump that to 3 or 4.

But I think faster scaling damage is a plus in both directions. It rewards good hits and allows for flesh wounds. It deemphasizes the need for big base dv guns because 1 net hit can make up the difference. Remember 1 net hit is 3 dice so itís like the difference between amateur and a trained pro. Look at the difference in thresholds tests in 5e each number represents a huge difference in outcome. Damage is piddling in comparison at 1dv per net hit. No where near the 1-4 thresholds of make a tight turn to flip your car and mid air use a crane hook to remove the bomb on the undercarriage or your car.

adzling

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 3044
    • Building Better Security
« Reply #406 on: (18:45:51/06-13-19) »
as far as i can divine from the public playtest/ demo armor adds nothing to your defence or soak.

At best it can only contribute 1 edge die (reroll ONE die) per combat turn.

That means you're just as well protected wearing a bikini into combat as an armored jacket, helmet and armored under suit.

Clearly that's nuts.

It's relegating armor to irrelevancy whereas they could have just as easily done something reasonable like you proposed further upthread.

If this core mechanic was so badly bungled i'd be willing to bet there are others just like it in 6e.

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1747
« Reply #407 on: (19:03:13/06-13-19) »
Agreed. Just trying to come up with a patch that works in the existing system. Auto soak and bumping all dvs is a fix but not one that I can foresee ever being implemented once enough players chime in for the live playtest that is this games launch. Changing one line of each hit increases the DV by 2 is doable. I guess computer games launch in alpha states and patch later so why not pen and paper RPGs.

PiXeL01

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2163
  • Sheltering Orks in Osaka
« Reply #408 on: (20:38:37/06-13-19) »
Fixing PDFs is easier than refunding all the hardcopies
If Tom Bradyís a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

Finstersang

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 321
« Reply #409 on: (20:55:10/06-13-19) »
While I suspect the game will be playable I think some core issues will be driving me insane.

1. Armor not adding to soak. The math for how much damage you take on average might end up working but thematically itís crap.

2. Strength not effecting melee damage values of weapons so a 1 strength dude swings a axe hits just as hard as a 15 strength troll. Yes edge but whether you use edge or not the default should be heavily in 15 strengths favor. Whatís insane to me is when moving from 4e to 5e they boosted the defect of strength on dc as it was seen as too weak of an effect in 4e. And they not only reversed course but made it a far far smaller effect than even 4e. I have a hard time articulating how bad I think this is. Though again the math for a functioning mechanically game may actually work. I doubt it since it oddly adds to unarmed damage which makes me think this is some editing error or multiple people working on the same section and not communicating. Still even if the math works, You just have to remove your brain for it thematically work.

3. How hard it will be to kill in one shot with certain weapons. This isnít a tootsie pop where it takes 3 licks to get to the center. If Iím shooting random unsuspecting unarmored goon with a heavy pistol how many dice do you think you should need to drop them in one shot on average. If you said 24 youíd be right in 6e. Called shot might drop that a couple dice. Edge a couple more but should you need edge to do something that basic?  12 dice should be plenty for something like this. Like almost overkill, padding for a bad roll type thing at 12 dice.

While low base damages are part of the problem a big part is the change since 4e away from damage staging. 1 hit per dv is a smooth bell curve but with high base damage and fixed TNs of 5 hits are never grazing or flesh wounds without ludicrous soak pools. But with low base damage killing someone in one shot is for 30 dice shooters which is just as crazy. Faster scaling of damage either through a reduced fixed TN or more dc per net hit would help this.

Quick example HP base dv 3. If the TN was 4 9 net hits or. 18 die pool vs unsuspecting target would get you to 12 dc-2 for soak to 10. 18vs 24 is an improvement. TN 3 you could get by with 14ish dice. Problem is with a TN change which while I think it does a better job of reinforcing the differences in skill levels is a change that requires more changes like threshold tests etc. Now if every net hit raised your base DV by 2 and you soaked 2 per hit you might see something interesting. 3 base damage youíd need 5 net hits to comfortably kill random 3 body guy. 15 die pool vs 24. Not the 12 I want but much better imo.

Also even with a middling body you might see flesh wounds when a enemy just barely hits you with bigger weapons. The shotgun grazed your shoulder. Base damage 5? 1 net hit to 7. A body 4 gets a lucky roll and 2 hits edges gets 1 more and knocks it down to 1 damage. Now youíd have to change a couple other things like maybe if called shots boost damage by 2dv still youíd have to bump that to 3 or 4.

But I think faster scaling damage is a plus in both directions. It rewards good hits and allows for flesh wounds. It deemphasizes the need for big base dv guns because 1 net hit can make up the difference. Remember 1 net hit is 3 dice so itís like the difference between amateur and a trained pro. Look at the difference in thresholds tests in 5e each number represents a huge difference in outcome. Damage is piddling in comparison at 1dv per net hit. No where near the 1-4 thresholds of make a tight turn to flip your car and mid air use a crane hook to remove the bomb on the undercarriage or your car.

Good thinking, maybe Iīll try this if the numbers fit:

  • +2 Damage per Net Hit.
  • But: Armor is added to the soak roll.
  • Edge gain from comparing Attack VS Defense rating stays in

That way, armor is a thing, but quick stealth takedowns as well. Like it  ;D

Hereīs another idea that revolves more around the flat Attack VS Defense rating comparison:

  • No Edge gain from comparing Attack VS Defense rating
  • If the Attack rating is +4 higher than the Defense rating, Net Hits add +2 Damage
  • If the Defense rating is +4 higher than the Attack rating, Soak is Armor + Body
  • You can always choose to soak with Armor or Body (a little concession to low body chars with high armor. Itīs still not a good idea to dumpstat body, tho)
In this constellation, Strength also has a bigger meaning for Melee, because the Attack-Defense comparison has a stronger effect.
« Last Edit: (06:40:50/06-14-19) by Finstersang »
SR5 Summoners in a Nutshell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

Rift_0f_Bladz

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1019
  • Go big or DIE
« Reply #410 on: (21:09:03/06-13-19) »
Most of the comments I am seeing here are not making me look forward to a system change. Granted, almost anything has to be better than the current Matrix stuff, but most of my group could not be forced to give a drek. I mean we even joked of playing Android: Netrunner as our Matrix game instead.
Turned in a live tox-shaman for 1 mil • (split 4 ways) and helped kill another one. But piss off the other 3... Oophs, looks like more money down the road for me. B)

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1747
« Reply #411 on: (22:03:15/06-13-19) »

Good thinking, maybe Iīll try this if the numbers fit:

  • +2 Damage per Net Hit.
  • But: Armor is added to the soak roll.
  • Edge gain from comparing Attack VS Defense rating stays in

That way, armor is a thing, but quick stealth takedowns as well. Like it  ;D

Hereīs another idea that revolves more around the flat Attack VS Defense rating comparison:

  • No Edge gain from comparing Attack VS Defense rating
  • If the Attack rating is +4 higher than the Defense rating, Net Hits add +2 Damage
  • If the Defense rating is +4 higher than the Attack rating, Soak is Armor + Body

In this constellation, Strength also has a bigger meaning for Melee, because the Attack-Defense comparison has a stronger effect.

I like those idea, things to play with while trying to get this system to fit my group.

kyoto kid

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • Bushido Cowgirl
« Reply #412 on: (02:13:44/06-14-19) »
as far as i can divine from the public playtest/ demo armor adds nothing to your defence or soak.

At best it can only contribute 1 edge die (reroll ONE die) per combat turn.

That means you're just as well protected wearing a bikini into combat as an armored jacket, helmet and armored under suit.

Clearly that's nuts.

It's relegating armor to irrelevancy whereas they could have just as easily done something reasonable like you proposed further upthread.

If this core mechanic was so badly bungled i'd be willing to bet there are others just like it in 6e.
...in agreement here.

About the only armour that sounds like it would actually benefit a character would be a sealed suit with its own life support (like an MCT EE suit, Chemseal FBA, Chemsealed Milspec, diving suit or space suit) to protect you from environmental hazards and toxins.  Just hope it isn't punctured in a firefight or by that 1 DV knife.
Forsaken daughter is watching you

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2549
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #413 on: (08:37:58/06-14-19) »
Most of the comments I am seeing here are not making me look forward to a system change. Granted, almost anything has to be better than the current Matrix stuff, but most of my group could not be forced to give a drek. I mean we even joked of playing Android: Netrunner as our Matrix game instead.

I have also considered that a couple times. Just didnít know the game well enough to make it work.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Prime Mover

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 283
  • Prime Runners need Prime Fixers
« Reply #414 on: (15:12:09/06-14-19) »
Been thinking a lot about armor changes and been listening to all actual plays.
This may have been suggested before and if so just ignore this post.

How make armor # still mean something and not add math or change new mechanics.

If DR is higher then AR then make damage stun.  This represents stopping power and penetration.  Doesn’t change soak roll, Increases survivability and leaves associated mechanics intact.
« Last Edit: (12:24:38/06-15-19) by Prime Mover »
Why do things happen the way they happen? For
all I know the world Is Just one big game and all of
our actions are determined by the roll of a die.
-  Dunkelzahn,  Great-Dragon

kyoto kid

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 884
  • Bushido Cowgirl
« Reply #415 on: (15:17:56/06-14-19) »
...that sounds reasonable.  Similar to how it works in 5E.

Would then give characters more of a reason to have/get better armour.
« Last Edit: (15:20:43/06-14-19) by kyoto kid »
Forsaken daughter is watching you

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1747
« Reply #416 on: (16:22:45/06-14-19) »
6e fiction is going to be lit. Armor doing nothing, 1 strength randos chopping down trolls with combat axes, heavy pistols shots taking 2-3 shots from trained experts to drop someone who canít move.

While a joke, the intent is to show how the rules should help illustrate the setting and the setting should be seen in the rules.  From what Iíve seen Iím not getting that here.

Mirikon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8970
  • "Everybody lies." --House
« Reply #417 on: (16:50:20/06-14-19) »
These trend to always try to depend on edge is not a good idea, it's gonna slow things down, if every roll we have stop and have edge discussion. Soak is soak, keep it simple.
This.

Look, I hate to be 'that guy', but there is a damn reason why Dungeons and Dragons is the most popular, best selling tabletop RPG on the freaking planet. Part of that reason is that it has very little back and forth in the numbers while you're in play. You have your AC, and the attacker has their hit modifier. They roll a d20, and if they tie or better, you get hit. Circumstance modifiers are generally rare, and are always flat things, like '-2 to attack rolls' or '50% miss chance'. Once you get past character generation, everything more or less abides by the KISS principle. Sure, you may have to make a series of rolls to try and grapple someone or bull rush them off a cliff, but they're all basic things that you know the modifiers for beforehand. Sure, armor doesn't reduce your damage taken, unless you have special mods on it, but it makes you harder to hit, which is good.

Even 'crunchier' systems like HERO System follow this basic idea. Yes, you have more options (martial arts maneuvers, for instance), but it still boils down to Roll 3d6, compare your modified OCV to their modified DCV, and if it hits, you roll damage. None of this constantly changing Edge crap. And Armor damn sure helps you resist damage, and sometimes keeps you from being hit, depending on what you have.

6e fiction is going to be lit. Armor doing nothing, 1 strength randos chopping down trolls with combat axes, heavy pistols shots taking 2-3 shots from trained experts to drop someone who canít move.

While a joke, the intent is to show how the rules should help illustrate the setting and the setting should be seen in the rules.  From what Iíve seen Iím not getting that here.
It feels like Catalyst subcontracted 6E to the team from Fallout 76.
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

My Characters

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1747
« Reply #418 on: (17:17:28/06-14-19) »
Edge will slow things down for sure but also core systems should not work based on a mechanic that will get variable amounts of use per table. Some tables may dive in and use it all the time, constantly adding and subtracting etc other tables may use it at most once per fight. Armor might function for group one(though I doubt it) but be totally broken for group two. Itís why you shouldnít  get magic to work based on background count. It needs to work on its own you canít depend on the GM to use it the right amount to balance a broken rule. Edge is like that but tied to every system in the game.

General rule if you think you came up with a clever gimmick that can be subbed in to make  everything work, you are wrong. The new edge mechanic might be amazing, but it should be an amazing edge mechanic. Not an amazing edge mechanic, conditional modifier mechanic, armor mechanic, melee damage mechanic etc.

Ghost Rigger

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
« Reply #419 on: (19:01:03/06-14-19) »
6e fiction is going to be lit. Armor doing nothing, 1 strength randos chopping down trolls with combat axes, heavy pistols shots taking 2-3 shots from trained experts to drop someone who canít move.
Just like my Japanese animes.

Speaking of Japanese animes, how do the vehicle rules look for 6e? If a bunch of riggers can't re-enact the events of Initial D in Ares Roadmasters while the streetsams and physads hold a contest to see who can do the best Akira bike slide, then what's even the point?
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide