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Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #180 on: (19:43:26/05-17-19) »
Oh? You thought I wasn't being serious? I genuinely believe that without suppressive fire and armor on soak rolls, playing Pink Mohawk is going to be impossible in 6e and Mirrorshades will be an incredibly risky proposition.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #181 on: (19:48:15/05-17-19) »
Oh? You thought I wasn't being serious?
Did I say I didn't believe you were serious?
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #182 on: (19:56:06/05-17-19) »
I think people will figure out to use it quick. But if it fails then what?

You donít have a decent soak to fall back on when you roll bad or just donít have the minor action.
They will roll up new characters and start playing the game as Black Trenchcoat as they can. Players and GMs who don't like playing Black Trenchcoat (whether or not they already knew it) will either return to a previous edition of their choosing or stop playing Shadowrun altogether. I'm calling it now.

Distinctly possible. My current group gravitates to it anyways. Iím running a former gangers game using Chicago missions and itís theyíve only fought when the plot demanded it. But any forced combat plot moments will be crazy lethal it seems.

Because of how the various groups Iíve been with since 1e play or how I run games maybe no one has felt the urge to get initiative enhancers if it wasnít key for them. Like a physical adept or street sam. This edition depending on how important additional minors is I can see everyone getting them.

The loss of free actions might roll into it. Before the non augmented face might be running, drawing a gun, diving into cover while shooting a gun. Just to perform appropriately dramatic and well fairly basic human coordination actions you might feel the need for ware to get more minor actions.

Now maybe there are combo minor actions or something to pull it off but ware isnít making you seem a blur of motion. It feels like you a normal person now.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #183 on: (19:56:50/05-17-19) »
Oh? You thought I wasn't being serious?
Did I say I didn't believe you were serious?
Fair point, but I think this opens up a new conversation: are the devs deliberately trying to kill off Pink Mohawk play?
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #184 on: (20:02:11/05-17-19) »
Oh? You thought I wasn't being serious?
Did I say I didn't believe you were serious?
Fair point, but I think this opens up a new conversation: are the devs deliberately trying to kill off Pink Mohawk play?

Would seem weird given how they tried to push pink Mohawk with the Chicago missions and 5e. Though neo Tokyo went the other way for sure. So maybe they got sick of it or whoever pushed it before was not part of 6e.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #185 on: (20:48:49/05-17-19) »
Fair point, but I think this opens up a new conversation: are the devs deliberately trying to kill off Pink Mohawk play?

If the 6e QSR cover art is any indication:



Looks like a pretty strong argument for "No".

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #186 on: (21:17:06/05-17-19) »
And yet, they killed off two mechanics critical to making Pink Mohawk possible....
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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PiXeL01

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« Reply #187 on: (21:52:27/05-17-19) »
I think people will figure out to use it quick. But if it fails then what?

You donít have a decent soak to fall back on when you roll bad or just donít have the minor action.
They will roll up new characters and start playing the game as Black Trenchcoat as they can. Players and GMs who don't like playing Black Trenchcoat (whether or not they already knew it) will either return to a previous edition of their choosing or stop playing Shadowrun altogether. I'm calling it now.

Guess Iíll be playing something else then. Forced Black Trenchcoat can go burn in hell. I like my Mohawk Fix or at least the option to do either. 5e was also highly BT in my opinion and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Let the gaming tables make the options of which direction to go, not the game developers
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kyoto kid

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« Reply #188 on: (23:19:56/05-17-19) »
Oh? You thought I wasn't being serious? I genuinely believe that without suppressive fire and armor on soak rolls, playing Pink Mohawk is going to be impossible in 6e and Mirrorshades will be an incredibly risky proposition.
...yeah Suppression Fire would be a good defence against the Group Fire option.  It is the perfect action for characters who are not front line combatants and don't have extremely high attack pools or physical attributes.

Using only body for the soak roll is going to end up with higher body counts for characters other than chromed up/jacked up Sammys and Trolls.

I've played both types of scenarios, Black Trenchcoat and Pink Mohawk and sometimes it's fun to cut loose turning the air to lead or blowing something to bits and live to talk about it later.
« Last Edit: (23:23:03/05-17-19) by kyoto kid »
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #189 on: (01:18:20/05-18-19) »
Iím waiting to see how the rule are for metas. Will see a onslaught of 1 strength 9 body trolls.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #190 on: (01:50:01/05-18-19) »
Heh, just because STR doesn't factor into weapon DVs doesn't mean STR will be useless.

A 1 STR troll probably wouldn't even be able to move around under the weight of troll-sized equipment. :D

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #191 on: (03:27:22/05-18-19) »
I think people will figure out to use it quick. But if it fails then what?

You don’t have a decent soak to fall back on when you roll bad or just don’t have the minor action.
They will roll up new characters and start playing the game as Black Trenchcoat as they can. Players and GMs who don't like playing Black Trenchcoat (whether or not they already knew it) will either return to a previous edition of their choosing or stop playing Shadowrun altogether. I'm calling it now.

Guess I’ll be playing something else then. Forced Black Trenchcoat can go burn in hell. I like my Mohawk Fix or at least the option to do either. 5e was also highly BT in my opinion and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Let the gaming tables make the options of which direction to go, not the game developers
The damage-numbers and mechanics teased suggest that while massive armies of mooks become more dangerous, there's less chance of being one-shotted. Don't forget, in SR4 and SR5 a sniper can easily one-shot you when they get the drop on you unless your armour is crazy high. Only actual time can tell us if this still exists in SR6, but lower damage and lower soak numbers means less 'holy crap a bad soak roll completely wiped me'. I've had players roll 1 hit on over 10 dice even after reroll, so then they'd drop like a fly in SR5. In SR4 there's a Mission where the sniper deliberately fires a paintball first, and his superior initiative still meant that I (too obviously unfortunately) fudged a killing shot.

Also, my SR5 campaign was pretty pink mohawk so I'm a bit surprised to hear that apparently I've been doing it wrong?_?

Anyway, if players wipe too easily, it suggests either the players should be a bit more tactical in the fights they pick, or the GM needs to adjust to the new balance. It doesn't mean we are forced into Black Trenchcoat. So the massive negativity here is extremely surprising. You're playing together with, not against, the GM, so the PM vs BT is still something that explicitly depends on the table.

@Stainless: I wonder how many tests will involve Strength?
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PiXeL01

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« Reply #192 on: (07:02:40/05-18-19) »
During 5e I got the distinct feeling that the ďdirectorsĒ wanted BT over PM. Just take a look at Market Panic or other sourcebooks offering mission hooks. Everything was as clandestine as possible. No more for PM plans, just BT options only. Manhattan is pure BT and whatís been described of Tokyo Missions it gives the same vibe. It gives the impression that all the bigger guns and drones are only for the opposition when the players fails.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #193 on: (07:11:14/05-18-19) »
'Okay, so you're fighting the Bug Queen when your Thor-shot alarm goes off. You got maybe 3 minutes to get out of there.'

Never had a problem with BT-pressure. 8)
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #194 on: (10:15:40/05-18-19) »
I think people will figure out to use it quick. But if it fails then what?

You donít have a decent soak to fall back on when you roll bad or just donít have the minor action.
They will roll up new characters and start playing the game as Black Trenchcoat as they can. Players and GMs who don't like playing Black Trenchcoat (whether or not they already knew it) will either return to a previous edition of their choosing or stop playing Shadowrun altogether. I'm calling it now.

Guess Iíll be playing something else then. Forced Black Trenchcoat can go burn in hell. I like my Mohawk Fix or at least the option to do either. 5e was also highly BT in my opinion and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Let the gaming tables make the options of which direction to go, not the game developers
The damage-numbers and mechanics teased suggest that while massive armies of mooks become more dangerous, there's less chance of being one-shotted. Don't forget, in SR4 and SR5 a sniper can easily one-shot you when they get the drop on you unless your armour is crazy high. Only actual time can tell us if this still exists in SR6, but lower damage and lower soak numbers means less 'holy crap a bad soak roll completely wiped me'. I've had players roll 1 hit on over 10 dice even after reroll, so then they'd drop like a fly in SR5. In SR4 there's a Mission where the sniper deliberately fires a paintball first, and his superior initiative still meant that I (too obviously unfortunately) fudged a killing shot.

Also, my SR5 campaign was pretty pink mohawk so I'm a bit surprised to hear that apparently I've been doing it wrong?_?

Anyway, if players wipe too easily, it suggests either the players should be a bit more tactical in the fights they pick, or the GM needs to adjust to the new balance. It doesn't mean we are forced into Black Trenchcoat. So the massive negativity here is extremely surprising. You're playing together with, not against, the GM, so the PM vs BT is still something that explicitly depends on the table.

@Stainless: I wonder how many tests will involve Strength?

Yeah in SR well anything there are items that can one shot you easily.  SR5 I felt was too deadly.  Assault Rifles a sort of corp goon norm had a base damage of 11 2 AP, two net hits and you are looking at 13DV.  Assuming a fairly normal set up for a runner they had 15ish dice to resists, on average knocking it down to 8, a point of edge knocking it down to 5ish.  Now you maybe got hit more since the auofire reduced your dodge dice. But that was another place where you had a chance to save yourself. With cover probably canceling out most of that dodge penalty.

Currently according to what people have stated, assault rifles damage 5 but can be boosted to 7/8 with autofire, their dice pool can go up if firing as a group and I think each group member adds 1 DV.  Now low rent types have a solid chance to hit you, and when they hit its devastating. Now lets assume non group, 2 net hits on a auto fire attack. Damage is 9, but you only roll 3 dice, so 8. Seems kind of the same place, but you need 1edge on hand to reroll each failure, and you are kind of capping at reducing it to 6. If he had been going full auto and hit you are at 10 boxes and hoping for a hit on 3 dice to live. Part of a group and you are resisting like 12 or 13 with 3 dice.  I'm actually seeing a lot of one shot kills in 6e unless I as the GM pull my punches in play.  I'm fine pulling my punches in not having an overpowered opposition facing them even though its a mega corp.  But whatever the opposition is, intentionally playing it worse seems off if they aren't dumb or something.

Now again I felt SR5 was too deadly.They have stated as part of the advertising SR6 is more deadly. The deadlier the game gets for the players the more they generally will move away from Pink Mohawk. I hope it is not more deadly, and that is just marketing. There are a lot of things I think will improve it from SR5, but there are a lot of things that have me worried.