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So you want a crappy Fake SIN ?

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SunRunner

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« Reply #15 on: (09:36:50/04-12-19) »
C Squared Gas grenades are my go too. One quick toss and you have covered a very large area with C Squared to removed or at least increase the forensic evidence collection threshold by 6 which means they need 7 hits for even the most basic stuff. I dont buy anything less then R6 C squared.

Cabral

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« Reply #16 on: (04:42:41/04-13-19) »
That doesn't make much sense.  If a rating 6 SIN were to work with your own biometrics, what's the point of coming with samples of those biometrics? You can give your own print/dna/whatever.

Plus it's a serious liability to put your own real biometrics into "the system".  Now you can be forensically ID'd at the scene of your shadowrunny crimes.
Like I said, sometimes the goal is to effectively achieve a legitimate SIN through illegal channels. Not every SINless is a Shadowrunner trying to dodge detection. 5e doesn't really support it, but I'm pretty sure previous editions did.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #17 on: (09:24:28/04-13-19) »
Counterpoint: most SINless purchase R1 to R3 fake SINs because they have neither money nor a need to fool high-grade SIN checkers. If you buy an R6 fake SIN, it's because you're a shadowrunner who has both money and a need to fool high-grade SIN checkers.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #18 on: (10:05:55/04-13-19) »
Counterpoint: most SINless purchase R1 to R3 fake SINs because they have neither money nor a need to fool high-grade SIN checkers. If you buy an R6 fake SIN, it's because you're a shadowrunner who has both money and a need to fool high-grade SIN checkers.

Very much that.

I'll point again to the chart on pg 364. It says what the verification system is checking.  In the case of rating 3, the system is querying outside databases. Now it doesn't go so far into the weeds as to say what that access costs, but it's tough to imagine it being free. (think of the fees businesses are charged to process a credit card in the real world) If you're Stuffer Shack, it's a very unnecessary expense to run a rating 3 verification system instead of a rating 1 or 2. 

RiggerBob

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« Reply #19 on: (19:23:45/04-13-19) »
The problem is the fluff doesn't fit the game mechanics at all.

For example a rating 5 SIN verification check ("full verification and consistency check; biometrics tested against sample" (p.368)) would simply not be fouled by any fake SIN below rating 6. Or a rating 4 SIN check ("external data checked for obvious conflicts; biometric must be present") would definitely not discover the non-matching dna of a fake rating 5 SIN, because it does not check yours against the data on file. This just does not work with a dice-roll based test.

The fluff in earlier editions about different local, national/corporate and global SIN databases and a check's rating based on which database was checked and/or how many different databases were cross-referenced was much better in that regard.

Edit: Well... actually the database fluff is still there (see "Burned SINs", p.368). But the "Fake SIN" and "SIN Verification" tables make no sense by introducing hard limits about what is checked and what is included in the fake SIN at each rating.
« Last Edit: (19:31:48/04-13-19) by RiggerBob »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #20 on: (13:42:33/04-14-19) »
It is true: A simple Scanner Rating x2 (SIN rating) test is the 5E RAW for testing IDs. What's missing from this rule is a *Limit* for the test. I could have sworn that was part of the test but I can't find any rule about it now. Anyway, if you want a House Rule to buff Fake SINs, apply the Scanner Rating as a limit to the test:

DR x 2 [DR] (SIN)

This prevents a DR2 scanner from ever flagging a Fake SIN of rating 3 or higher, which also has the benefit of reducing the number of dice you have to roll.

And if you want to know how hard it should be to beat a rating 5+ verification system, watch the movie Gattaca.
You're also breaking the rules by blocking scanners from ever busting a fake SIN that way. And are you really that concerned about the 1/10 chance you have to talk your way out of things and 1/81 chance of burning a rating 3 fake?

If you get a simple Rating 4 in chargen, a rating 3 has 10% of tie or better, 1.78% of burning the fake. It's stressful, but it means there's still a risk. If you're that worried, just add 1 extra hit required for burning your fake. That way, you can be scanned hundreds of times without burning.

It becomes like stealth in 3E d&D you basically always get spotted outside a decent level stealth focused build because when you roll a d20 enough times eventually it will be high enough.  Its not a 10% chance its probably 2-3 10% chances per character per run. That's probably every run someones SIN is getting flagged.  And not part of your main heist plan but some stupid basic check.

It's decent hours rule they were suggesting so players aren't constantly getting dragged due to just having too many dice rolls. If checking their SIN is somehow a important part of the challenge just make it a higher level scanner. 

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #21 on: (15:55:46/04-14-19) »
Are you really having your SIN checked that often, though? Are you really crossing national borders and casually walking into corp facilities during business hours that often?
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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AnotherUser

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« Reply #22 on: (18:02:36/04-14-19) »
...  if the group isn't going through some sort of checkpoint that is requiring everyone to submit some sort of biometric data (like a thumb-scan for instance) then the Verification Rating has to be 3 or lower. ...

For the most part, SINs aren't checked autonomously. Unless you are going into a high security neighborhood, you shouldn't need to stealth or avoid having your SIN checked just for walking down the street. ...

I think this is on the right track.

Higher rated SIN checks are probably few and far in between. If only for the reason they are inconvenient. Even if you assume that something like a DNA verification and cross-check only takes a second, there are still valid reasons not to require one at every corner. You can´t have the employees creating a huge congestion at the office tower´s gateway each day at 7.30 am because every single one of them, plus passangers, has to lower the windows, lean out of the car and let their thumb be pricked.
Also, stuff breaks. If you hand out costly items to every beat cop you can expect to have to replace up to a third of them within the fiscal period.
And you probably want personnel to be present at the check. That means wages. Even worse, vending machines and (!) restrooms. Sure, a drone or a checkpoint could have an in-built blood sample tester. But there would constantly be accidents ("Sir, this is not your thumb."), hold-ups ("No! In the other port!"), false alarms, vandalism and unnoticed hacking attempts, all of which might result in lawsuits. Also, knowing my players:

[SPOILER]
Player: ´So, can I get one of these rating 1 fake SINs? Real quick?´
Me: ´Um, probably. Why you asking?´
Player: ´The one with chicken DNA? Look, it says so right here in the rulebook.´
Me: ´Depends. Are you planning on carrying around a live chicken with you at all times?´
Player: ´Awww, you know me too well.´
Me: ´It would be the wrong chicken! You would need the right one! With matching DNA!!!´
Player: ´A chicken is a chicken.`
Me: `Now you´re just trolling me.´
Player: ´But as long as it gets the blood it wouldn´t care into what it sticks its needle, right?´
Me: ´Shaddup!´
[/SPOILER]


I would expect lower rated SIN checks to be fairly common, frequent and maybe even automated. Patrolling drones, entries of posh shops etc. But, even in secure areas I would assume a rating 5-6 test would only be made once, before you get your visitors´card. Not at every door. Once you are in, only another one if you try to enter a section with tighter security. But frankly speaking areas that would justify a rating 6 SIN check, like top secret laboratories, exec lofts and so on would most likely restrict access to so few people that they know each other. Even a level 8 SIN won´t help you if you are caught standing in Gary Kline´s office.

This doesn´t mean the SIN rules do not need a revamp and more explanation. They absolutely do.
« Last Edit: (18:10:56/04-14-19) by AnotherUser »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #23 on: (18:06:48/04-14-19) »
If you're in a 'SIN-broadcasting mandatory' area, obviously the drones will go 'hey that person ain't broadcasting' and chances are at least some drones have an R1 scanner. Though it's extremely unlike you're scanned more than once there.

There should be a bit more clarity, but I hope the rules never explicitly go 'area X is R# check all the time'. Because that takes away the customization options for the GM. The biggest importance here is the social contract: The GM and players should align their understanding of how the system works, without surprises sprung on them 'just because'.
CorpSec when an alarm is triggered;: "This is so sad, Alexa play Shoot The Runner"

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #24 on: (18:10:06/04-14-19) »
[SPOILER]
Player: ´So, can I get one of these rating 1 fake SINs? Real quick?´
Me: ´Um, probably. Why you asking?´
Player: ´The one with chicken DNA? Look, it says so right here in the rulebook.´
Me: ´Depends. Are you planning on carrying around a live chicken with you at all times?´
Player: ´Awww, you know me too well.´
Me: ´It would be the wrong chicken! You would need the right one! With matching DNA!!!´
Player: ´A chicken is a chicken.`
Me: `Now you´re just trolling me.´
Player: ´But as long as it gets the blood for the check the drone wouldn´t care where it sticks its needle, right?´
Me: ´Shaddup!´
[/SPOILER]
There's probably a "check if the DNA is human" function in any SIN checker that relies on biometrics, just from the odds that some enterprising runner has tried this in the past.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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AnotherUser

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« Reply #25 on: (18:24:26/04-14-19) »
There's probably a "check if the DNA is human" function in any SIN checker that relies on biometrics, just from the odds that some enterprising runner has tried this in the past.
Certainly. And in my sixth world it also checks if the sample if from something alive. We all know why.
I was just trying to point out what daft ideas it can lead to if you do not find room to describe important concepts of your game world in your products.

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #26 on: (00:07:37/04-15-19) »
Once you get into the realm of rating 5+ Fake SINs, you have valid biometrics but they're for some individual other than yourself.

Well, maybe.

See page 367 of SR5.
Rating 5: "...valid biometrics for another person (with samples)..."
Rating 6: "...valid biometrics with samples..."

Rating 6 omits the call out for another person. This could be that it was unnecessary to repeat (since samples are mentioned) or that rating 6 put your samples on file.

It's probably the first case, but there is room for alternate interpretations. I seem to recall in earlier editions that went into more detail on the subject, sometimes the fake SIN creation process involves injecting biometric samples. Sometimes, the objective is not to have a SIN that misdirects away from, but a SIN that represents you. This is not really supported by the core book and I don't think it has been revisited in 5e.

I've always viewed the Rating 6 Fake SIN as being a cleverly set-up sort of database spoof. The actual SIN has your real biometrics registered to it, so under precise scrutiny it won't show up as a fake, but it isn't fully registered through the whole system. That way it still won't show up if someone scans your DNA from evidence left behind (it isn't fully registered the way a Real SIN is), but it can still be used for a SIN verification check.

Since a lot of the various sources of SINs don't openly communicate I'm sure there are several back doors for faulty database glitches to occur. Things where a search can work one way but not the other.

Tarislar

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« Reply #27 on: (12:13:56/04-15-19) »
I think several posts have pointed out the real issue here & that is that you are NOT getting scanned everywhere you go.

Combining the SIN check fluff with Sensor Housings gives me this concept....

R1 SIN Check is "Do you have a sin".

Any drone flying over head scanning for SINs in a crowd is likely using this to pick out people not broadcasting at all & sends in the info for a patrol check.

These drones wouldn't be flying over public streets frequently but would be deployed over a crowd that is entering a restricted area, like a Sports Event or Political Rally, or large open areas just outside a corp building but on their grounds.    Example.  Outside on the steps leading up to a court building like seen in every movie/tv show ever.   That to me is where you would see drones w/ R1 scanners.


R2 Scanners are small & are used by random police patrol offers as well as entry points to more restricted areas.
Say by the Security at the entrance to any of the above areas. 
Its cheaper & is going to be the default at 90% of security check points getting into corp facility grounds or background checks for renting an apartment or purchasing a car, or going into a large bank, etc etc.


R3 Scanners are the top end of what is portable in a "wand" device.
These are going to be much more rare.
Maybe each Shift Sgt. has one for checking people that are already detained by patrol officers.
Maybe these are used by CorpSec that patrol their grounds actively looking for intruders.
Maybe these are what an FBI team has available compared to your typical beat cop patrol.
Etc etc etc. 
But your typical daily worker isn't likely to even get scanned by an R3 scanner at any point during the day, or week, or maybe even the month.


R4 Scanners have to be wall mounted, at that point we are talking the stuff that scans specific badges just for that area & isn't going to be a regular SIN checker IMO.
That said, something like this is where hackers/deckers start to become real handy to get by these.


R5+  Less a "Scanner" and more what you get when an opponent (cop, agent, decker) does a "Deep Dive" on your records just looking for something off about your story.



Personally I don't see "random checks" as part of the game. 

That would be like cops pulling people over w/o probable cause IMO.

If the runners are trying to infiltrate a public, but restricted, area, like the VIP area at a Political Rally, then I'd have them likely pass under an R1 Scanner.
If they have to go through an actual security check point then have them face R2 scanners.
And only if they tie the R2 scanner & flub the social test or get caught later on for causing problems or approach the top VIP w/o an appointment would I then have them checked at R3.

If you get caught infiltrating a Top Secret research facility, and aren't killed in the process, then R3 Scanning is just the first of problems you will be facing....

Sphinx

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« Reply #28 on: (12:18:36/04-15-19) »
The way I see it, the best fake SINs come from organized crime syndicates, clandestine government agencies, and megacorp dirty tricks units, because they have back-door access to actual SIN registries and the ability to set up semi-legitimate hacks and redirects. The whole system was designed to allow convincing fakes, because the powers-that-be want them. That rating-6 fake ID issued to an undercover operative will beat almost any SIN check no matter what the biometric data says. The rating-6 fake you bought from a mafia identity forger for fifteen grand works equally well, because it was probably made by the same guy using the same exploits, supplementing his retirement fund with a little under-the-table mob work.

[Side note: The real power of a major syndicate like the Mafia or Yakuza isn't nuyen or manpower or firepower -- it's corruption. Syndicates have useful/influential politicians, judges, cops, executives, and officials in their pocket, under their thumb, and/or on their payroll, which gives them access to the same resources. Not to say that every fake SIN sold by the mob is equally bulletproof, just that they're available for a price. False IDs would be a major revenue stream for organized crime, but most SINless folk just need a low-level fake for things like public transportation and Matrix access.]

Tarislar

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« Reply #29 on: (12:26:57/04-15-19) »
...that's why you should always carry a spray bottle of C Squared in your kit.


C Squared Gas grenades are my go too. One quick toss and you have covered a very large area with C Squared to removed or at least increase the forensic evidence collection threshold by 6 which means they need 7 hits for even the most basic stuff. I dont buy anything less then R6 C squared.


Ooohhhh,  this sounds nice.

I always keep a cheap $1 plastic spray bottle filled with $1 jug of bleach for emergency bio wipe down, but the idea of a grenade when you are short on time is worth looking into.

Where do I find C2 rules?