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Using the Matrix as a sniper weapon: Dataspike away ?

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Seras

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« on: (20:49:42/04-06-19) »
Hi Guys 8),

in my quest to incorporate more Matrix stuff into my games I have been doing some research into the rules.  Magic is supposed to be rare, while matrix gear is available to everybody for a price. so I'm thinking of the badguys using two or three deckers to snipe the weapons, cyber and comlinks broken from a van while the muscle waits outside, then walking in on unarmed runners.

But everybody talks about the problem of getting marks. Why bother with marks ?

Why not just Dataspike the hell out of everything ?

Example:
Lets take the Erica MCD. you can configure it to be: 4 1 2 3 with a powerful agent program (level 6). Then add Virtual maschine with Hammer and Decryption

Now you are at  5 1 2 3  and the deckers and the agents damage is increased by 2 That means the decker and the agent each have a basic damage of 7 plus your Net hits on top. And in hot VR  you'll be fast, so you get lots of attacks.

The average gun/ comlink has a Matrix condition monitor 9-10 boxes with about 4 to 6 defence dice  ( Basic rules page 225 Damage in the matrix and page 231 Device ratings)


Thats seems pretty nasty. Yes I need to watch Overwatch, so I'll probably only get 2 or three attacks before disconnecting, but still.

And thats just the ceapest deck, I can always say the the gansters/corps have the expensive stuff.

What do you think ?

Cheers Seras
« Last Edit: (21:00:14/04-06-19) by Seras »
I apologise for my posts beeing weird to read, I am fluent in english, but almost never write in english anymore :-(

kainite311

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« Reply #1 on: (22:30:19/04-06-19) »
A few things I can think of... If your using it against player's they either run wireless off most of the time, or slaved their wireless on gear to a high Firewall and sleaze tricks (usually the group decker, or the various smoke-n-mirrors). Next, most other (normal) people who are running wireless, as soon as their stuff takes matrix damage (which screams hacker), they turn off their wireless to prevent further damage and bricking. Another thing, hope the mage doesn't sick his spirit on the decker's bodies while they are doing this... Once people get wind of some gang's usual tactic of "3 hackers in a van", they become predictable and soon you have people prepared to counter that. Just like the players getting known for using "heavy weapons" and rockets, they get noticed and suddenly appropriate countermeasures get set up. But the simplest solution is to turn wireless off, no more hacking (especially after it takes a hit)... That's my opinion...
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: (22:32:08/04-06-19) »
The problem with trying to brick things is it's only a free action to go wireless off.  So you only get one shot against a savvy opponent.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #3 on: (03:39:16/04-07-19) »
And three Deckers are expensive to get as well, even if you only provide them with cheap gear.
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Seras

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« Reply #4 on: (06:33:19/04-07-19) »
The problem with trying to brick things is it's only a free action to go wireless off.  So you only get one shot against a savvy opponent.

Arrgh, I overlocked that part. So it has to be strong enough to do it on the first try, because you do not get a second one. Great Input Thanks !!

What about drones, you cannot turn the wireless off ( you can turn the drone off, but that makes it useless)

Does this mean Sleaze is preferrable to Brute Force ? I was under the impression Brute force was the superior option in 5. edition
I apologise for my posts beeing weird to read, I am fluent in english, but almost never write in english anymore :-(

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #5 on: (08:35:05/04-07-19) »
A drone gone wireless-off isn't useless.  It's just restricted to the Pilot + Autosoft it has locally loaded as opposed to being able to remotely access any Autosofts on a RCC.  Although it will prevent a rigger from being able to Jump In.

Sleaze actions are indeed preferable. While the rules do allow for Brute Forcing, unless your GM is prepared to hand waive it the target is immediately alerted when you succeed at a Brute Force action.  Because of the ability to switch off wireless, the best way to brick a target is to get a bunch of marks via hack on the fly first then throw your data spike.  With the extra marks, you can feasibly one-shot-one-brick.  But again, if the target is matrix savvy, you'll probably only get the one device.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Marcus

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« Reply #6 on: (11:14:50/04-07-19) »
You can build a super effective dataspiker, and I mean like base 11+ damage with 18 dice in the attack pool. Now virtually this works ok. Keeping in mind that hacking is usually about getting paydata. Sure burning ice down works. It's not subtle and convergence is not fooling around.
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Ech0

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« Reply #7 on: (02:34:48/04-20-19) »
Also: It's incredibly boring.

Don't forget that the deckers first have to find and identify the correct weapons, cyber etc. the runners bring to the table. In an isolated environment it will not be that hard, but once they are out in the open, 100x100 Meters is a lot of ground to (matrix-)cover with matrix perception rolls - and once the enemy deckers find a wifi-on item, it could be someone elses Light Pistol or Datajack. The way the rules are written makes it impossible to pinpoint equipment without a visual link.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #8 on: (05:25:10/04-20-19) »
I recently came across a neat combo - enabled through the new options from Kill Code/Better than Bad:

You need:
Adrenaline Surge: Let's you go first no matter what
Instinctive Hack: Allows you to Brute Force,Data Spike, Hack on the Fly, or use Matrix Perception before Ini is rolled
Action: Watchdog grants you a MARK and allows you to use Haywire, Popup and Squelch as interrupt actions
Haywire disconnects the PAN of the target taking away all wireless boni and Squelch prevents the target from sending messages, preventing it from calling for help. Popup penalizes all actions the target takes by your net hits - which also cause matrix damage.
With that combo you can effectively spend your whole ini in one burst, forcing the target to physically reboot his link.
Finally, a DumDum grenade will wipe out the data processing of all his wireless gear during the reboot while it is vulnerable through the lack of PAN protection.
All gear is as good as fried, but can actually be restored with out having to repair it.
talk think matrix

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Marcus

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« Reply #9 on: (14:48:33/04-20-19) »
Also: It's incredibly boring.

Don't forget that the deckers first have to find and identify the correct weapons, cyber etc. the runners bring to the table. In an isolated environment it will not be that hard, but once they are out in the open, 100x100 Meters is a lot of ground to (matrix-)cover with matrix perception rolls - and once the enemy deckers find a wifi-on item, it could be someone elses Light Pistol or Datajack. The way the rules are written makes it impossible to pinpoint equipment without a visual link.

This is actually a common misconception as that is what kept this from going down in previous editions, but 5e made this easy. If you can see the item in meat space and the item is wirelessly active you can dataspike it. (See the example in the core.) Sure the come back is then won't be wirelessly active, but that's actually very unlikely in 5th. People don't run with touch links or cables and if your Link isn't on and broad casting your cop bait.

That said it can get fairly boring, and dataspiking doesn't stun targets out.


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AnotherUser

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« Reply #10 on: (16:54:08/04-22-19) »
The problem with trying to brick things is it's only a free action to go wireless off.  So you only get one shot against a savvy opponent.
A free action per piece of (linked) equipment, is it not? Or is there is an option to turn off multplie devices with a single free action, that I am overlooking atm.?
If not, then that changes the equation considerably.

...
What do you think ?
I consider such a matrix attack to be the equivalent of a well placed sniper rifle.

It requires scouting and preparation, but is potentially devastating. If the NPCs remain unnoticed while they set up their attack (and place marks) the players will feel pretty helpless.

Sadly, most of the rules were written with the players being the active party in mind. Having them on the receiving end, especially with anything matrix related, often results in raised eyebrows.

Make sure your players are ok with that. And with being blindsided like that. Just as with snipers having the GM roll stuff in secret and then, without warning, be screwed, might ruffle some feathers.
It would be prudent to either use foreshadowing or having a very good and thematic ingame reason and opportunity for such a set-up. And even then use it sparingly.

Otherwise your players are going to start to poke the matrix rules for loopholes. And you absolutely don´t want that.
The idea to pay some third-world teenager to PAN your gear to his link and browse in some obscure crap host where he is completely untraceable is one of the more sane discussions that can be had over this.
« Last Edit: (17:05:53/04-22-19) by AnotherUser »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #11 on: (16:55:59/04-22-19) »
Quote from: Turning It Off, pg 421
Toggling an individual device’s wireless functionality
off is a Free Action, as is toggling all of your wireless
devices to “wireless off.”

It's a free action to do either one specific item, or all of them.

Turning everything wireless off as a free action is a death spike into combat hacking's viability.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

AnotherUser

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« Reply #12 on: (17:12:58/04-22-19) »
It's a free action to do either one specific item, or all of them.

Turning everything wireless off as a free action is a death spike into combat hacking's viability.

>groan<

Allright, so it´s first strike or no strike. Still, very much possible, but inconvenient.
« Last Edit: (17:15:15/04-22-19) by AnotherUser »

PiXeL01

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« Reply #13 on: (18:01:21/04-22-19) »
That’s why you “go for the (cyber)eyes, Boo!”
If Tom Brady’s a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #14 on: (18:07:55/04-22-19) »
Bold of you to assume anyone would ever set their cybereyes to wireless for any reason other than smartlink.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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