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Quick Draw Questions

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Youneko

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« on: <04-04-19/1403:06> »
I just met with some problems with quick draw action(SR5 p.165), Rapid Draw Adept Power(SG p.173)and Iaijutsu Action(R&G p.122), especially when it comes to melee weapons. I'm really confused with those rules. Would anyone break these down for me?

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Quick Draw
A character may attempt to quick-draw a pistol, pistol- sized weapon, or small throwing weapon and immediately fire it by using a Quick Draw Simple Action. For the character to successfully draw the weapon, the player must make a (Weapon Skill) + Reaction [Physical] (3) Test. If the weapon is held in a quick-draw holster (see p. 432), reduce the threshold to 2. If the test is successful, the character draws the weapon and fires as a single Simple Action. If the test fails, he clears the gun but cannot fire with the same action. If he glitches, the gun is stuck in the holster or dropped, and no more actions are allowed. On a critical glitch, a drawn blade may be fumbled out of the character’s reach or a pistol accidentally fired while still in the holster; the gamemaster decides the exact nature of the screw-up.
Only properly holstered weapons can be quickdrawn. They do not have to be in a quick-draw holster, but they do need to be in a holster or sheath or on a proper sling to be quick-drawn. Two weapons may be quick-drawn and fired simultaneously, but the (Weapon Skill) + Reaction dice pool is split, and off-hand penalties apply.

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RAPID DRAW
No longer limited to pistols, the Rapid Draw power can be used by the adept to rapidly and more easily employ a variety of weapons in combat. Any weapon that is properly holstered can be quick-drawn; this includes blades,pistols, and throwing weapons. To use this ability, the adept makes a standard quick draw test (p. 165, SR5) but the threshold for this test is decreased by 1; this is cumulative with the use of a quick-draw holster. Also, with this power, a Quick Draw action is considered a Free Action.
For the purposes of this power, larger weapons such as SMGs, shotguns, or assault rifles attached to slings and/or held in front of the adept at the “low ready” position are also considered holstered and can be quickdrawn as such.

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IAIJUTSU
Simple Action
Iaijutsu is the art of sword drawing, though this technique goes beyond just using a sword. With this action, the character may perform Quick Draw Simple Action (p. 165, SR5) with any melee weapon. As with the quick draw rules, the weapon must be properly sheathed or holstered in order to use the Quick Draw Action. If successful, the character can then attack with the weapon as a Simple Action instead of a Complex Action for that Action Phase. Note that use of this action requires Martial Art training.

Here are my questions:

1) When using quick draw to draw melee weapon or throw weapon, would the character gain a free attack in this action? It's said "draws the weapon and fires as a single Simple Action", so I thought it only works on firearms. If not, what's the point of it?

2) Iaijutsu is an Simple Action that require character to "perform Quick Draw Simple Action". I would count this to be just poorly-written text, and, IMO, Iaijutsu is an action that work similarly with Quick Draw. The question is, however, if the answer to my 1st question is yes, would Iaijutsu give a free attack with Iaijutsu Simple Action and give another Simple Action Melee Attack? I feel it's ridiculous and against "only one attack in one Action Phase" rule.

3) Rapid Draw changed the Quick Draw action to be a Free Action, but how about Iaijutsu? Would this Simple Action also be considered as Quick Draw and thus become Free Action?

4) Rapid Draw also allows character with larger firearms to quick draw those weapon. It's so fraggin broken! Like, as long as I get two free action each pass with Perfect Time, I could quick draw my assault rifle and attack with just a Free Action, use my complex action to do whatever I want, then use another Free Action to Drop Object. With the slings attaching to my gun, it would get back to the position where I could legally perform Quick Draw. I have already set a House Rule to limit the Free Action Quick Draw to be used only in their own Action Phase, but, well, I found this thing is just too Broken to fix. Since there's other action rather than fire, recoil wouldn't stack, which is a good news for FA; DV, AP and penalty on defense rolls of heavier weapon is more powerful than pistol; more importantly, they wouldn't need to bring all the pistols with them, nor would they need to pick up all the pistols droping on the floor after firefight. I really don't know how to deal with it. Would anyone give me some advice?

Banshee

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« Reply #1 on: <04-04-19/1508:04> »
Basically your confusion is just an effect of poor wording.

Quick Draw action allows you to draw and ready a weapon as a Free Action instead of a Simple Action, attacking is still a Simple (or Complex depending on weapon/attack type) Action ... so if you quick draw you can draw, ready, and attack while only using a TOTAL of one free action and one simple action. The only differences between the three actions are what weapons can you use it for. (this was addressed in errata somewhere)

Quick Draw - only small fire arms and throwing weapons
Rapid Draw - any holstered weapon
Iaijutsu - only melee weapons
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PiXeL01

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« Reply #2 on: <04-04-19/1846:46> »
No matter how it’s done, unless you use the multiple attack action then you can only get one attack per phase.
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Youneko

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« Reply #3 on: <04-05-19/1323:27> »
Basically your confusion is just an effect of poor wording.

Quick Draw action allows you to draw and ready a weapon as a Free Action instead of a Simple Action, attacking is still a Simple (or Complex depending on weapon/attack type) Action ... so if you quick draw you can draw, ready, and attack while only using a TOTAL of one free action and one simple action. The only differences between the three actions are what weapons can you use it for. (this was addressed in errata somewhere)

Quick Draw - only small fire arms and throwing weapons
Rapid Draw - any holstered weapon
Iaijutsu - only melee weapons

Thank you Banshee for your help, but, what you said is so different from how I read the rules. Like, Quick Draw Action is a Simple Action and there's no free action mentioned there, right? If you need another simple action to fire, then why don't you just Ready Weapon?

I do believe that to change Quick Draw to a free action with no bonus attack would work. Would you please show me where the errata is? I just searched for it and got nothing.

Banshee

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« Reply #4 on: <04-05-19/1400:28> »
as for where it is in the errata  I couldn't actually tell you .. but I remember we talked through when I was on the committee.

using quick draw instead of ready weapon leaves you another simple action to make a non-attack action with, if just used ready weapon and then attacked ... that's all you can do because it uses both simple actions. It just comes down to action economy and what you are trying to accomplish in one pass.

they tried to simplify it by making quick draw a single simple action that includes both the ready simple action weapon action and the attack simple action but at the "cost" of having to make a skill check to ready the weapon. The big thing to remember is as PiXeL01 stated, unless you are using the multiple attack action you only get one attack per pass.
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Hobbes

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« Reply #5 on: <04-05-19/1609:43> »
I don't think any Quick Draw change made it to the Official Errata.  It's certainly a sensible clarification, but AFAIK (Current) RAW the Quick Draw action in the Core book is a Simple Action, that lets you ready a pistol (and such) and attack.  I'd be quite happy to be wrong about that though.

And yes OP, the best way to go through life is with an un-readied weapon and the Rapid Draw power.  I briefly toyed with the idea of an Adept with a Bandoleer of those one shot Cavalier Heavy Pistols from ... Street lethal?...  Just run around with like 6 of those monsters strapped on.  Free Action *BANG* and use the rest of the action for Adept powers... Wall Running, Attribute Boost, Hang Time, whatever.....  Just a little too stupid for my taste, but the concept was worth a giggle.

 

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #6 on: <04-05-19/1730:52> »
The way I've always viewed the abilities that expand on the Quick Draw action (both Rapid Draw & Iaijutsu) is that the writers were making a failed assumption about that action. Namely, that the action is somehow separate from actually making the attack. The Iaijutsu technique refers to making an attack action after successfully performing the quick draw action, while the Rapid Draw adept power reduces the time it takes to quick draw down to only a Free Action. Clearly the martial art technique writer didn't realize the original wording of quick draw already indicates that it allows you to immediately take an attack action (as part of the quick draw action) or else they wouldn't have added that extra "attack as a Simple Action" wording. Likewise, it seems somewhat ludicrous to reduce drawing a weapon & attacking with it down to a Free Action (with ANY weapon mind you).

My preferred ruling for all of these:
Quick Draw (Core Rules): As written, this action works fine. As a Simple Action, you can attempt a "Quick Draw Test" using Reaction + Weapon Skill. Success means you get to ready the weapon AND can immediately make an attack without needing to take an extra action. Failure means you ready, but need to spend an extra action to fire.

Rapid Draw (Adept Power): Reduces the Threshold on Quick Draw Tests by 1. Allows you to Ready any (properly holstered) weapon as a Free Action if you succeed at a Quick Draw Test. No free attack. (Alternately) can make the standard Quick Draw Action (with the reduced threshold) as normal. This primarily means you can quickly ready any weapon instead of just pistols/throwing weapons. Doesn't give lightning speed Free Action attacks.

Iaijutsu (Martial Art Technique): May spend a Simple Action to ready a sheathed melee weapon, attempting a Quick Draw Test. If you succeed you can spend a second Simple Action to make an immediate Attack with that weapon.

adzling

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« Reply #7 on: <04-05-19/2049:44> »
This looks perfect kiir, stainless let’s post it up to errata!

Hobbes

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« Reply #8 on: <04-05-19/2058:36> »
Personally I think just turning the "Ready" action into a Free Action is good 'nuff.  Quick Draw action takes a dice roll and only works for smallish weapons, Iaijutsu lets you Free action ready a larger melee weapon (no dice roll), Rapid Draw lets you just Ready anything with a Free Action, no Dice roll. 

I mean, really, Reaction plus Weapon skill with a Threshold of 1 or 2?  On any combat character that roll is a gimme.  If you're spending Karma or PP I think the token dice roll could be dispensed with completely. 

May just be me, I really dislike "...just check to see if you glitch..." type of rolls. 

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #9 on: <04-05-19/2115:06> »
To be fair, the threshold starts out at 3 by default, which isn't as much of a gimme as you might think. Just like Surprise Tests, it can be surprising how often people don't succeed at getting those 3 hits to succeed.

The problem I have with changing Quick Draw to a Free Action is the change to action economy. You can't take more than one Free Action each Pass. That's one of the reasons I made the distinction of allowing an Adept to use the standard Quick Draw action with Rapid Draw. Same for keeping Iaijutsu away from using a Free Action.

It also means that if you fail the test, then the action still happens - you ready the weapon, which is a Simple Action. Iaijutsu means you essentially get to make the attack as a Complex Action (Simple + Simple) and the draw wasn't even an action. Rapid Draw, on the other hand lets you do some kind of strange maneuvers, like quick draw into a Complex Action attack (Semi-Auto burst, melee weapon, etc). The cost of having the extra versatility (extra options for the weapon AND attack) is that it uses up that Free Action instead.

Hobbes

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« Reply #10 on: <04-05-19/2132:13> »
I was saying keep the dice roll for the Core Book action.  With Iaijutsu or Rapid draw a Quick Draw holster is required so the Threshold drops to 2, then 1 with Rapid Draw.  3 hits, certainly a chance at failure.

In any case the Gear Access armor mod is basically the same thing.  Rapid Draw/Iaijutsu mainly lets you blend in better at parties.

Moving "Ready" to a Free action lets you Ready, Aim, Fire with a gun.  Ready and Attack with a melee weapon.  It always bothered me you couldn't aim and quick draw, you had that second Simple Action just kinda hanging out. 

Really any clarification that isn't "Free Action Swat with a Nodachi" is an improvement though.

Edit: Separating the "Ready" action from the attack roll makes it cleaner IMO.  Just to state it with less snark.  I've surprised a couple GMs with the RAW on how those all interact.  Separating the attack and just changing the action economy seems more intuitive to me.  YMMV.
« Last Edit: <04-05-19/2138:44> by Hobbes »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #11 on: <04-18-19/2334:59> »
Personally I think just turning the "Ready" action into a Free Action is good 'nuff.  Quick Draw action takes a dice roll and only works for smallish weapons, Iaijutsu lets you Free action ready a larger melee weapon (no dice roll), Rapid Draw lets you just Ready anything with a Free Action, no Dice roll. 

I mean, really, Reaction plus Weapon skill with a Threshold of 1 or 2?  On any combat character that roll is a gimme.  If you're spending Karma or PP I think the token dice roll could be dispensed with completely. 

May just be me, I really dislike "...just check to see if you glitch..." type of rolls.

That's what I would want.  One of my issues with quick draw being baked into an attack is you may have reasons to quick draw that don't involve attacking like as part of a intimidation roll. I guess you can half ass that with palming but quick draw seemed the right tact for it.  Just make quick draw turn the ready action into a free action and move on, for the adept power I'd agree dispense with the test 2 hits is pretty much a gimme.

Chalkarts

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« Reply #12 on: <04-19-19/0751:50> »
I've been reading this thread because 1 aspect of this intrigues me.

How would all of this work with thrown weapons?  If you have Throwing knives Holstered, Quick Draw and Rapid Draw, how will that affect my attacks?  Do I still only get to knife 1 guy in a round?
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #13 on: <04-19-19/0851:20> »
1 Attack action max per turn says the rules.
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Banshee

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« Reply #14 on: <04-19-19/1048:49> »
I've been reading this thread because 1 aspect of this intrigues me.

How would all of this work with thrown weapons?  If you have Throwing knives Holstered, Quick Draw and Rapid Draw, how will that affect my attacks?  Do I still only get to knife 1 guy in a round?

you can ready a number of throwing weapons equal to 1/2 your agility (rounded up) but as Micheal Chandra says you only get one attack action so to attack with more than one knife would require you to u split your dice pool per the Multiple Attacks action.
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