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The Reward Loop

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Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #15 on: (20:16:44/03-14-19) »
In Shadowrun, a Ganger with a pistol is just as much a threat at 0 karma as he is with 1000 karma. The only difference generally is in the options you have to remove that ganger. SR has tried to fix the issue that you are talking about when they brought in limits. I think the theory was that if only "X" number of successes counted, then why improve the dice pool exceptionally past that point? (if your limit is 4, why improve your dice pool to 30 for that test?). But that kinda of fell apart when they started including fifteen different options to increase your limits.

And the irony is that increases to dicepools would usually be more appreciated.

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Improving an attribute is the new rating x5... which means increasing a weak attribute is easy, but increasing an strong attribute is very hard... just like in real life. Took me a long, LONG time of training to get my reflexes to the point that I could compete in a professional fast draw tournament (like 5 years of practice everyday, for 3 hours a day, 50+ thigh  slaps from quick fires, hundreds of split thumbs and jammed wrists.... and I still didn't break the top 50 competitors)

Improving an active Skill is new rating x2.. which makes improving a weaker skill easy, but an established skill harder, again just like real life. I came out of trade school knowing how to do a High Voltage Slice (HVS), it took me THOUSANDS of HVS's to get that down to a 10 minute job that is perfect every time.

Shadowrun tries to mimic the challenges of increasing exceptional attributes and skills, as it is in the real world. And it IS difficult to increase exceptional performance in a human being; Look at the hours a day an Olympic Athlete spends on diet, exercise, training, and technique... They Spend YEARS training for a single event.. and generally only maintain their performance levels, not increase them. (if you loo at athletes that compete Olympic after Olympic, there is generally no increase from the previous year. In fact they usually drop a bit as age takes its toll..)   And make no mistake; when you are talking bout increasing an attribute from 5 to 6 or a skill from 7 to 10 range, you're talking Olympic level skill and attribute...
Isn't the rising cost of improvement also supposed to encourage you to diversify your skillset and pick up new qualities? Because after 5 runs, that's certainly what I've observed in my group.

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What I find as a bigger problem is how some GMs seem to approach SR world. They seem to have a leveled system mindset when they GM Shadowrun which leads to some..."Strange" constituencies which has several problems.

What I mean by this is that man GMs get into a head space that says to them "If the players can roll 20 dice on an attack, I need to have enemies that can roll 15 to 25 dice to challenge them!" which leads down the road to the gutter punk ganger whose in the top 0.0000000000000000000000001 percentile of the World's elite shooters with his dice pool of 30, "just because"...
I mean, they're right, but they're doing it wrong. If you want your players to face a dicepool of 30, you don't give the ganger a dicepool of 30, you pit your players against a cyberzombie assassin with a dicepool of 30.

Going from 6 to 7 in an active skill is 56 karma.
It's 14 karma. Go read the rulebook again.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #16 on: (20:28:07/03-14-19) »
Going from 6 to 7 in an active skill is 56 karma.
It's 14 karma. Go read the rulebook again.

To be fair, the chart is completely unintuitive.  I mean you have to subtract the value of the skill rating you are at from the rating of the skill you want to go to.

Good thing we can expect a timely errata to make that clear, huh?  :p

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #17 on: (20:36:49/03-14-19) »
Errata? What's that? I've never heard of such a thing. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go shopping for my 12F Ares Thunderstruck.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Overbyte

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« Reply #18 on: (20:55:46/03-14-19) »
I think flat would get boring too fast, and devaluates the high attribute and high skill characters since they're nothing special.
As it stands, they're already nothing special, because they are almost always NPCs, unless you either start at 200 karma after chargen, or you have been hauling the same character to every Missions event you can get to for a couple years. Might as well say that people having money devalues billionaires. It doesn't really matter if you're on the streets.


"Standard run gives, say, 4-6 karma. That means a blade-focused street sammy needs to save up 10-14 runs worth of karma to go from a 6 to 7 in Blades"

Math?

Going from 6 to 7 in an active skill is 56 karma. 6 x 9 is 54. 6 x 10 = 60. So 10 at the shortest. 4 x 14 = 56. So 14 at the highest.

Methinks you have been cheating your players very severely.

SR5 pg. 104-105
The skill table works on a similar principle, though Active Skill ratings costs are computed at new Rating x 2. If you are purchasing a brand new skill, find the desired rating on the table and pay that cumulative amount. For example, if you are purchasing the running skill for the first time, and are buying it up to Rating 3, you will pay 12 Karma. To go from 7 to 8 in a skill, you will pay 16 Karma (rating 8 x 2 Karma).

It only costs 14 Karma to go from Rating 6 to 7
Nothing is foolproof. Fools are so ingenious.

Fedifensor

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« Reply #19 on: (21:13:14/03-14-19) »

Quote from: Mirikon
Going from 6 to 7 in an active skill is 56 karma. 6 x 9 is 54. 6 x 10 = 60. So 10 at the shortest. 4 x 14 = 56. So 14 at the highest.

Mirikon has over 8000 posts on these boards.  That rule failure is so bad I have to wonder if the account has been hacked...

Overbyte

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« Reply #20 on: (21:47:51/03-14-19) »
Mirikon has over 8000 posts on these boards.  That rule failure is so bad I have to wonder if the account has been hacked...

I wondered about this also.
Nothing is foolproof. Fools are so ingenious.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #21 on: (22:33:05/03-14-19) »
I only have a few issues with the karma system.

1. I think its bad design to have skill groups costing the same as attributes which are skill groups+++
2.  Related to 1 I think skills are a smidgen too expensive I think x5 for attributes is pretty good but maybe x1.5 for single skills x3 for groups.
3.  I think training times need to die in a fire. It adds nothing to the game and is better represented by role playing use during a game or games.

Shadowjack

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« Reply #22 on: (23:55:08/03-14-19) »
I agree with this so much. After so many years of playing I've never had a Fairlight Excalibur, never has a skill at rating 12, never owned an aircraft, never had more than one piece of deltawave, never had a piece of betaware, and so on. It feels boring to have to play 5 sessions to raise body a single point. My group decided to award about 15 karma per run, we actually had progression, but it feels bad to not follow the book. I strongly dislike scaling costs in all rpgs, it's a huge turnoff.
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #23 on: (04:12:27/03-15-19) »
I think the scaling costs make the game feel more organic. In reality, it takes a long time to master skills to a serious degree, so it makes sense that it isn't easy to do in the game too. I think it is unfortunate that the character creation system encourages min-maxing, but the advancement rules aren't the core issue.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #24 on: (04:53:44/03-15-19) »
I think the scaling costs make the game feel more organic. In reality, it takes a long time to master skills to a serious degree, so it makes sense that it isn't easy to do in the game too. I think it is unfortunate that the character creation system encourages min-maxing, but the advancement rules aren't the core issue.
To Mirikon they are a core issue. I've already seen him complain about it during 4e, iirc. I know for sure I've seen complaints in the early days of 5e.

I do think boosting mundanes a bit by decreasing their costs would be nice, because the Mages get bonus dice and bigger oomph from their magic-increases, while the mundane Decker/Rigger tends to lag behind. A Force 10 instead of a Force 6 Spirit and enough quickened spells to have 30 defense dice, while being able to cast powerful magic without care thanks to Centering and increased attributes, is a huge impact (even with downsides) compared to 'I just spend 400 karma on getting +4 dice on all my primary skills with increased skill ranks and increased attributes'. Background Count helped though.
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Beta

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« Reply #25 on: (11:07:43/03-15-19) »

"Standard run gives, say, 4-6 karma. That means a blade-focused street sammy needs to save up 10-14 runs worth of karma to go from a 6 to 7 in Blades"

Math?

Going from 6 to 7 in an active skill is 56 karma. 6 x 9 is 54. 6 x 10 = 60. So 10 at the shortest. 4 x 14 = 56. So 14 at the highest.

Oh dear, there is a reeeeaaaaaally bad table in the CRB that I think threw you off.  To buy a skill up by one point costs 2x the new level.  So if you are at 6 and going to 7, it costs you 2x7=14 karma.

I don't have the book in front of me, but I think what it shows is the total cost of going from 0 to n, where n is the new skill level.  And indeed 2x(1+2+3+4+5+6+7)=56, so if you have no skill in blades and wish to get to skill 7, it will cost you 56 karma.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #26 on: (13:01:06/03-15-19) »
...
3.  I think training times need to die in a fire. It adds nothing to the game and is better represented by role playing use during a game or games.

I'm ok with the balance between suggested karma awards and karma costs for improvements... but I also dislike how training times are executed.

In practice I like the idea of codifying how long it takes, and the meta challenge of aligning a regular group's calendars.  Sammy wants to take 8 weeks off to improve unarmed combat, Rigger wants to take a month off to buy a new piloting specialization, but the face rocking a high lifestyle literally can't afford to make rent without taking more paying jobs before the first week of the next month, so the players have to work out some sort of compromise about when they start looking for their next run...

What I really don't like is the implementation on instruction reducing training time.  It should reduce the interval, whatever that is, instead of a flat reduction in days.  Who the hell cares if you cut 1 day off your training time measured in weeks.  If training cut the same interval (days for days, weeks for weeks, etc) per hit it'd be much more attractive.  And higher skills/attributes would be more achievable via karma expenditure.
« Last Edit: (13:04:05/03-15-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

Overbyte

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« Reply #27 on: (14:29:06/03-15-19) »
In practice I like the idea of codifying how long it takes, and the meta challenge of aligning a regular group's calendars.  Sammy wants to take 8 weeks off to improve unarmed combat, Rigger wants to take a month off to buy a new piloting specialization, but the face rocking a high lifestyle literally can't afford to make rent without taking more paying jobs before the first week of the next month, so the players have to work out some sort of compromise about when they start looking for their next run...

Me too. There are only two players in my home game, but I made a calender for the past year of game time and its really great for working out when things happen, how much time has elapsed, etc.

What I really don't like is the implementation on instruction reducing training time.  It should reduce the interval, whatever that is, instead of a flat reduction in days.  Who the hell cares if you cut 1 day off your training time measured in weeks.  If training cut the same interval (days for days, weeks for weeks, etc) per hit it'd be much more attractive.  And higher skills/attributes would be more achievable via karma expenditure.

Yes. The instruction rules are terrible so I made the following new rules:

Training time for new skills are:
1   Rating * Rating * Days
2   Rating * Rating * Days
3   Rating * Rating * Days
4   Rating * Weeks
5   Rating * Weeks
6   Rating * 2 Weeks
7   Rating * 2 Weeks
8   Rating * 3 Weeks
9   Rating * 3 Weeks
10   Rating * 3 Weeks
11   Rating * 4 Weeks
12   Rating * 4 Weeks
13   Rating * 4 Weeks

Instruction Rules:
1) Instructors can teach up to Rating equal to (Instruction + 3) or their (Skill) whichever is higher.

This allows people with instruction skill to teach anything, while those with skill in something can teach others that skill

2) Instructors roll Instruction once per month (or just once if time is <= 4 weeks) and reduce the time for that period by 5% per success.

Simplifies things greatly and provides a percentage decrease instead of flat number of days.

3a) Tutorsofts have Rating 1-6 and act as Instruction with Rating (NOT x2) in dice and reduce time by 5% per success.
3b) Tutorsofts can only teach up to Rating in skill


Tutorsofts should be a poor substitute for a real teacher. Otherwise why bother getting a live Instructor?

4) Self-teaching is not possible until after Rating 6

Practicing the wrong thing because you don't know what you are doing is not helpful.

5) Ratings 12 and 13 can not be taught by an Instructor

If you want to be legendary you must develop your own way..

NOTE: These training times aren't really "realistic" to learn skills in the real world, but setting the time to learn Skill 12 at 50 years is not going to work for an RPG.
« Last Edit: (14:38:10/03-15-19) by Overbyte »
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Reaver

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« Reply #28 on: (19:39:06/03-15-19) »
For my table, my view of training times is a little special:
If its a skill that you use a fair bit, I don't require training times as I see it as a natural evolution of your use of the skill (and if I am requiring a roll, its more then a causal usage).

Knowledge skills can be "Trained" a head of time through general off time interest. ("My character stays on top on economic developments by reading the Business and Finance media")

However, for new active skills, I do require training. A smart player will decide on a skill and let me know they are planning to pick it up, then they MAY be able to work in some "on the job practice" that could reduce the training time :P
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #29 on: (21:16:33/03-15-19) »
...
3.  I think training times need to die in a fire. It adds nothing to the game and is better represented by role playing use during a game or games.

I'm ok with the balance between suggested karma awards and karma costs for improvements... but I also dislike how training times are executed.

In practice I like the idea of codifying how long it takes, and the meta challenge of aligning a regular group's calendars.  Sammy wants to take 8 weeks off to improve unarmed combat, Rigger wants to take a month off to buy a new piloting specialization, but the face rocking a high lifestyle literally can't afford to make rent without taking more paying jobs before the first week of the next month, so the players have to work out some sort of compromise about when they start looking for their next run...

What I really don't like is the implementation on instruction reducing training time.  It should reduce the interval, whatever that is, instead of a flat reduction in days.  Who the hell cares if you cut 1 day off your training time measured in weeks.  If training cut the same interval (days for days, weeks for weeks, etc) per hit it'd be much more attractive.  And higher skills/attributes would be more achievable via karma expenditure.

I don't see the value add to a I guess i wont being playing next week rules. Yeah, maybe the team works out some deal but there comes a point where i need 4 months off or some other ridiculous amount and there isn't a great way to wiggle around it.