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Making a drake mage-face work

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Ixal

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« on: <02-13-19/1651:59> »
The entry for The Coffee Clutch in No Future finally got me to put a concept I had in mind for some time on paper. Not that I will likely actually play it, but I just wanted to see if I could make it work.

Basic idea is a forward operative who sleazes his way in before the run to get into a good position + the occasional information gathering. And of course the usual mage stuff during the run.
Although this would only really work after the first initiation to get Masking.

Priorities

Magic: A
Attributes: B
Skills: C
Metatype: D
Resources: E

Attributes
BOD: 3 (4)
AGI: 3 (4)
REA: 3
STR: 3 (5)
CHA: 4
INT: 3
LOG: 3 (4)
WIL: 6
EDG: 5
MAG: 6

Derived Attributes
Essence:                                6
Initiative:                             6 +1d6
Astral Initiative:                     6 + 3d6
Physical Damage Track:                  10
Stun Damage Track:                      11

Limits
Physical:                               6
Mental:                                 6
    Vision Enhancement [+1] (Only Perception (Visual))
    Vision Enhancement [+3] (Only Perception (Visual))
Social:                                 7
   Rapid Transit: Elite [+1] (Must be visible)
   Securetech PPP: Arms Kit [-1] (Must be visible)
   Securetech PPP: Legs Kit [-1] (Must be visible)
Astral:                                 7

Active Skill
Assensing                              Base:4          Pool:7
Con                              Base:6          Pool:10
Counterspelling                              Base:6          Pool:12
Etiquette                              Base:6          Pool:10
Gymnastics                              Base:2 (grouped)          Pool:5 (6)
Pistols                              Base:2          Pool:5 (6)
Running                              Base:2 (grouped)          Pool:7
Spellcasting                              Base:6          Pool:12
Swimming                              Base:2 (grouped)          Pool:5 (7)
Unarmed Combat                      Base:4          Pool:7 (8)
Exotic Ranged Weapon Flame    Base: 4          Pool: 8

Positive Qualities
Dracoform (Eastern Drake)

Negative Qualities
Creature of Comfort (Middle)            -10
In Debt 6                                      -6
Prejudiced (Specific, Biased) (Japanese) -3
Records on File (Spinrad)                 -1
SINner (National) (California)             -5
Wanted (Dragons)

Tradition
Shaman                             #Draconic would be ideal, but I find it hard to justify for a PC, especially at chargen. Chaotic might also fit RP wise, but doesn't synergize with being a face

Spells
Combat
Lightning Bolt
Stunbolt
Detection
Dragon Astral Signature                       #RP pick
Detect Enemies, Extended
Health
Heal
Increase Reflexes
Illusion
Improved Invisibility
Manipulation
Armor
Fashion                                         #Mainly to bypass the 10% armor cost increase if the GMs allows that and to not reveal being a drake to contacts.
Influence

Lifestyle
Low 2 Months               #I know this triggers Creature of Comfort. More of a RP choice. Can be substitued for 1 month middle when I lose some gear
  + Cramped -10%
  + Public Grid Subscription

Armor
Armor Jacket                              12
  + Chemical Protection 3
  + Nonconductivity 3


Ares Victory: Rapid Transit            9 
  + AR Fashion
  + Concealed Pocket
  + Rapid Transit: Elite

Securetech PPP: Arms Kit             +1
Securetech PPP: Legs Kit             +1
Helmet                                      +2
Hardened                                    +2
Hardened Mystic                         +2

Weapon
Unarmed Attack
 Pool: 7 Accuracy: 6 DV: 4S AP: - Reach: 0
Claws
 Pool: 8 Accuracy: 6 DV: 6P AP: -1 Reach: 0
Ares Light Fire 70
 Pool: 6 Accuracy: 7 DV: 6P AP: - RC: 3
Cavalier Safeguard
  + Laser Sight
 Pool: 6 Accuracy: 5(6) DV: 6S AP: -5 RC: 3

Commlink
Renraku Sensei
 + Sim Module

Equipment
Earbuds Rating 3
 + Select Sound Filter Rating 3
AR Gloves
Contacts Rating 3
 + Image Link
 + Flare Compensation
 + Vision Enhancement Rating 1
Goggles Rating 6
 + Image Link
 + Flare Compensation
 + Vision Enhancement Rating 3
 + Vision Magnification
Tag Eraser
Subvocal Mic
Trodes
White Noise Generator Rating 6
Certified Credsticks: Standard x5
Zen x3
Long Haul x3
Slap Patch: Antidote Rating 6 x3
Slap Patch: Stim Rating 6 x3
Lodge Material (Shamanistic) Rating 3

Ammo
6 Clips (Ares Light Fire 70)
100 Regular Shot (Light Pistol)

3 Clips (Cavalier Safeguard)
50 Shot (Taser)

Vehicle
Yamaha Growler
 + Sensor Array Rating 2

SINs
Fake Sin (UCAS) Rating 4
 + Fake License (Firearms)
 + Fake License (Magic)

Contacts
Loan Shark  Connection 2 Loyality 2
Fixer Connection 4 Loyality 4


I haven't spend any karma on it except for the Drake quality. Not sure if that is a good idea or not (probably not).
Also I did not add the 10% cost increase for armor yet, so that might require some reshuffling of funds
« Last Edit: <02-13-19/1834:06> by Ixal »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #1 on: <02-16-19/0003:12> »
Seems fairly solid on the mage side at least and at least competent as a face for dealing with guards etc though not for negotiating with Johnsons.  I'd try to squeeze in focused concentration 4+ if possible. And while armor is a solid choice I prefer the avoid getting hit spells like combat sense or deflection. Also you might want to see if you can squeeze in increase attribute charisma as a way to lean a bit more into the face side.

Ixal

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« Reply #2 on: <02-19-19/0353:39> »
Seems fairly solid on the mage side at least and at least competent as a face for dealing with guards etc though not for negotiating with Johnsons.  I'd try to squeeze in focused concentration 4+ if possible. And while armor is a solid choice I prefer the avoid getting hit spells like combat sense or deflection. Also you might want to see if you can squeeze in increase attribute charisma as a way to lean a bit more into the face side.

Thanks for your answer.
You are right that Combat Sense is superior to Armor even with higher drain. And as melee is a possibility I rather have that than Deflection.
Ignoring negotiation means that the group needs a 2nd face, but I did not see a way to get 3 skills up to acceptable levels and imo etiquette and con are more important for infiltrating places.

And getting Focused Concentration is certainly also a good choice to have Reflexes running before the fight and because its cheaper at chargen

Still, Drakes are very karma hungry. 80 or more additional karma in addition to any leftovers from chargen to pay the quality off and to get what I consider the essentials (Mastery, just because being a Drake for only 30 seconds is silly and magical flight, at least for eastern). So hopefully there will be a lot if hooding runs.

I am not quite happy with the shaman tradition or any other Cha drain tradition. I will likely switch to Chaos even if it means 1 less drain pool or maybe Hermetic which would give me the same drain pool as a CHA tradition while in drake form. Unless I can somehow justify Draconic. Even having to shift mid game would be ok, but that depends on the story.

I am also not quite sure about the equipment. Without ranks in pilot the bike is pretty useless for any shady work and I could also use a good home medkit for wireless on healing.
On the other side being wanted and without vehicle is a bad idea.
A off-road bike is also less that inconspicuous in the not run down parts of the city. A Cyclops would be better especially to maintain cover, but is also more expensive. But if I can somehow get some ranks in driving the Growler likely makes for a better escape vehicle once the wanted quality rears its head (I still have to decide who specifically is hunting him. The lore in SR5 about drake hunting is a bit contradictory.

I should probably also exchange the contacts for glasses as having to shift with contacts in might hurt a little.
« Last Edit: <02-19-19/0503:58> by Ixal »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #3 on: <02-19-19/1245:58> »
Charisma by the numbers it a good drain stat.  And yeah its hard to find a tradition that has the drain stat you want, a theme you want, and spirits you like. I wish I could find a logic themed non possession tradition voodoo spirit collection.  For charisma I love Obeah for its spirits(almost voodoo and not possession), but it kind of calls for a specific personality.

I like logic hermetic styles unfortunately only hermetic seems really to tie with logic, a lot of traditions have logic as the drain stat but when I read it I'm like why is this logic?  Sadly though logic kind of sucks for mages compared to the other options as it does virtually nothing in the magic realm and very little on its own.  Want spirits, astral combat damage, forcing past wards and a backup face one of the key all shadowrunner skill sets go charisma, want to assense things and well have one of the key combat stats go intuition. Logic, I guess if you want to be the teams first aid source. And because of that, a charisma or intuition focussed mage can dump logic more than a logic mage can dump intuition or charisma.  I frequently do dump charisma, but it means I suck at binding and dealing with wards and low end cons.

Chaos being intuition is a solid drain stat choice, but its spirits like hermetic I never really liked because the great form spirits power are all the same, except man.

Ixal

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« Reply #4 on: <02-19-19/1321:36> »
I didnt even look at spirits. Like with negotiation I didnt have enough skillpoints for both spellcasting and summoning, so I concentrated on the former.
Although 2 or so points in summoning might be a good idea to make use of low level spirits for recon and utility. Especially if I can get away with draconic as tradition to call any materialization spirit.

Its not as if I can raise anything for a while after the game start. First the drake quality must be paid off and then dracoform mastery is a high priority. Why does this cost another 50 karma? Aren't drakes expensive enough? But without mastery many other drake abilities become near useless. Imagine a sea drake trying to dive while having to shift back and forth every 20 seconds.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #5 on: <02-19-19/1340:52> »
Damn I forgot all the karma after chargen for drake, so i assumed you'd dip into summoning quick as its so key. I'd drop pistols 2, at a 7 pool its not doing much for you anyways and put that into summoning. Even low force spirits with their optional powers can help quite a bit.

Ixal

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« Reply #6 on: <02-19-19/1453:52> »
Yeah, those costs are a killer.

If I buy 4 Focused Concentration I am 41 karma in debt. If I want mastery then its 91 karma after gamestart.
Not buying the concentration would drop it to 25 and 75 respectively. Still a huge amount.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #7 on: <02-19-19/1501:16> »
Yeah, those costs are a killer.

If I buy 4 Focused Concentration I am 41 karma in debt. If I want mastery then its 91 karma after gamestart.
Not buying the concentration would drop it to 25 and 75 respectively. Still a huge amount.

Crazy, that is a ton of runs done perfectly to pay that off.  I just can't think of the last time I built a mage or mystake adept without focused concentration.  Being able to keep 1 spell up all the time without it being a focus is huge to me. 

Beta

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« Reply #8 on: <02-19-19/1609:37> »
Why willpower 6?
Tipperman  --
speechthoughtmatrix

Ixal

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« Reply #9 on: <02-19-19/1701:45> »
With the draconic tradition it would mean 12 drain resistance dice.
« Last Edit: <02-19-19/1722:52> by Ixal »

Beta

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« Reply #10 on: <02-19-19/2001:28> »
But he isn't using the draconic tradition, I thought?
Tipperman  --
speechthoughtmatrix

Ixal

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« Reply #11 on: <02-20-19/1540:24> »
Mostly because I have a hard time thinking of a way to have a character start with a dragon connection, especially as PC drakes are supposed to be free.

Still, I have written it in and try to come up with an explanation later (suggestions welcome).
I also dropped the pistol skill for summoning, gun and license and made some other changes.

Priorities
Attributes:     B
Magic:     A
Metatype:     D
Resources:     E
Skills:     C

Attributes
Attribute    Normal    Drake
BOD:    3    4
AGI:    3    4
REA:    3
STR:    3    5
CHA:    4
INT:    3
LOG:    3    4
WIL:    6
EDG:    5
MAG:    6

Derived Attributes
Essence    6
Initative    6 + 1D6
Astral Initative    6 + 3D6
Physical Damage Track    9 (Drake 10)
Stun Damage Track    11

Limits
Physical:    6
Mental:    6
   Vision Enhancement [+2] (Only Perception (Visual))
Social    7
   Rapid Transit: Elite [+1] (Must be visible)
   Securetech PPP: Arms Kit [-1] (Must be visible)
   Securetech PPP: Legs Kit [-1] (Must be visible)
Astral    7


Active Skills

Skill     Rating     Pool
Assensing     4     7
Con     6     10
Counterspelling     6     12
Etiquette     6     10
Exotic Ranged Weapon (Elemental Attack)     4     8
Gymnastics     2*     6
Running     2*     7
Spellcasting     6     12
Summoning     2     8
Swimming     2*     7
Unarmed Combat     4     8

* Athletics Skill Group 2


Positive Qualities

Quality    Rating    Karma
Dracoform (Eastern Drake)        75
Focused Concentration    4    16
Total: 91 (16)

Negative Qualities
Quality    Rating    Karma
Addiction (Mild): Gambling        -4
Creature of Comfort (Middle)        -10
Driven (Learning about Drakes)        -2
In Debt    5    -5
Prejudiced (Specific, Biased) (Japanese)        -3
Records on File (Spinrad)        -1
Wanted (??)       
Total: -25

Karma Debt: 41

Tradition
Draconic
    Drain: WIL+MAG 12
    No Mentor Spirits
    No Group membership possible
    No need for Lodges and Ritual Materials
    Spirits: Any

Spells
Combat
Lightning Bolt
Stunbolt
Detection
Combat Sense
Dragon Astral Signature                       
Detect Enemies, Extended
Health
Heal
Increase Reflexes
Illusion
Improved Invisibility
Manipulation
Fashion                                         
Influence

Lifestyle
Low 2 Months               #I know this triggers Creature of Comfort. More of a RP choice. Can be substitued for 1 month middle when I lose some gear
  + Cramped -10%
  + Public Grid Subscription

Armor
Armor Jacket                              12
  + Chemical Protection 3
  + Nonconductivity 3

Ares Victory: Rapid Transit         9
  + AR Fashion
  + Concealed Pocket
  + Rapid Transit: Elite

Securetech PPP: Arms Kit    +1
Securetech PPP: Legs Kit    +1
Helmet    +2
Hardened    +2 (Drake)
Hardened Mystic    +2 (Drake)(Astral only)

Weapon

Weapon    Pool    Accuracy    DV    AP    Reach/RC
Unarmed Attack    7    6    3S    -    0
Claw    8    6    6P    -1    0
Cavalier Safeguard    2 (Drake 3)    5(6)    6S(e)    -5    3
Elemental Attack    8    6    12P    -6   

Commlink
Renraku Sensei
 + Sim Module

Equipment
Earbuds Rating 3
 + Select Sound Filter Rating 2
 + Sound Link
AR Gloves
Glasses Rating 3
 + Image Link
 + Flare Compensation
 + Vision Magnification
Goggles Rating 6
 + Image Link
 + Flare Compensation
 + Thermographic Vision
 + Vision Enhancement Rating 2
 + Vision Magnification
Tag Eraser
Subvocal Mic
Trodes
White Noise Generator Rating 6
Certified Credsticks: Standard x3
Zen x2
Long Haul x2
Slap Patch: Stim Rating 6 x2

Nuyen: 155
Debt (Triads): 37.500
Monthly Interest: 3.750

Ammo
2 Clips (Cavalier Safeguard)
30 Shot (Taser)

Vehicle
Yamaha Growler
 + Sensor Array Rating 2

SINs
Fake Sin (UCAS) Rating 4
 + Fake License (Magic)

Contacts
Type    Connection    Loyality
Loan Shark/Bookie    2    2
Fixer    4    4
Dragon    1    1

As for the dragon, my initial idea for the character had a gambling background anyway and so I thought maybe there is a eccentric dragon out there who is amused by metahumans wagering their possessions on a chance without planning, influencing and divining like dragons do. So basically gambling for it is like watching the clowns at a circus. And by pure chance my character was found by the dragon and in pure desperation gambled for his independence and actually won which netted him the contact.
« Last Edit: <02-20-19/1604:15> by Ixal »

Tarislar

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« Reply #12 on: <02-21-19/0101:31> »
Mostly because I have a hard time thinking of a way to have a character start with a dragon connection, especially as PC drakes are supposed to be free.

Still, I have written it in and try to come up with an explanation later (suggestions welcome).
I also dropped the pistol skill for summoning, gun and license and made some other changes.

Priorities
Attributes:     B
Magic:     A
Metatype:     D
Resources:     E
Skills:     C

Attributes
Attribute    Normal    Drake
BOD:    3    4
AGI:    3    4
REA:    3
STR:    3    5
CHA:    4
INT:    3
LOG:    3    4
WIL:    6
EDG:    5
MAG:    6



Active Skills

Assensing     4     7
Con     6     10
Counterspelling     6     12
Etiquette     6     10
Exotic Ranged Weapon (Elemental Attack)     4     8
Gymnastics     2*     6
Running     2*     7
Spellcasting     6     12
Summoning     2     8
Swimming     2*     7
Unarmed Combat     4     8

* Athletics Skill Group 2


Positive Qualities

Quality    Rating    Karma
Dracoform (Eastern Drake)        75
Focused Concentration    4    16
Total: 91 (16)

Negative Qualities
Quality    Rating    Karma
Addiction (Mild): Gambling        -4
Creature of Comfort (Middle)        -10
Driven (Learning about Drakes)        -2
In Debt    5    -5
Prejudiced (Specific, Biased) (Japanese)        -3
Records on File (Spinrad)        -1
Wanted (??)       
Total: -25

Karma Debt: 41

Tradition
Draconic
    Drain: WIL+MAG 12
    No Mentor Spirits
    No Group membership possible
    No need for Lodges and Ritual Materials
    Spirits: Any

Spells
Combat
Lightning Bolt
Stunbolt
Detection
Combat Sense
Dragon Astral Signature                       
Detect Enemies, Extended
Health
Heal
Increase Reflexes
Illusion
Improved Invisibility
Manipulation
Fashion                                         
Influence

Contacts
Type    Connection    Loyality
Loan Shark/Bookie    2    2
Fixer    4    4
Dragon    1    1




I think the Dragon's Connection is going to be need to be 6 even if his Loyalty is 1.
You might consider having the Dragon be a "Fixer" for him to accomplish 2 goals at once.
That way your "Free" still but he can contract you out for the occasional mission for himself.
The maybe make the LoanShark/Bookie something with a bit more use for potential for information when your hunting data, maybe Mafia Consiglieri or Gang Leader?



For sheer Karma factors & good dice pool I'd swap some skills around.
Binding-6
Con-6+Specialization
Exotic Breath Weapon-6
Perception-6
Spellcasting-6+Specialization
Summoning-6
Group-Influence-2

I dropped the Assensing, & Counterspelling, & Unarmed since you have spells & boosted Summoning, Binding, & Perception since with any spirit type you want the options to have them cover all the above are quite good.


Attributes = BARSWLIC = 33316345

Ixal

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« Reply #13 on: <02-21-19/1106:52> »
Thanks for the input, I will certainly use some of it. Summoning 6 is certainly more valueable than some Assensing (although in SR5 its hard to find something more valuable than summoning which is why I don't want to overuse it).

Do you really think dropping counterspelling is a good idea though?
I am also a bit wary about dropping an ability to 1. Both from a RP point of view as this represents a rather crippling disadvantage imo and because unless houserules it will take a while before I can even shift into a drake as I have to pay off the debt first.

The athletics skill group I mostly choose to pick up flight a bit more cheaply later on.

Don't know if upgrading the dragon contact is on the table. It comes with the draconic tradition and the book its very clear about it only being there as magic conduit and will never give any other useful information.
And frankly I would rather not have to deal with a dragon any more than neccessary as I see the forced dragon connection as single biggest problem the draconic tradition has for being allowed on a table and would have no problem with the dragon being house ruled away.

I tried to keep much of the post here generic (which is also the reason I haven't posted the knowledge skills as they are more or less entirely backstory dependant), so I called my other contact just a loan shark, in the backstory I have in mind it is actually a mid level triad guy running a gambling den who usually only hands out loans to spiral people into dependence when they can't pay their gambling debts but made an exception for the character when he needed money as he has been a customer for decades.

I also have to find a good value for Wanted as I am not a fan to use a generic term there, but I rather give the GM a more specific hook like a single organization or enemy. The lore about drakes and how much they are hunted is a bit messy though, having changed a lot from SR4 and being also rather unsteady within SR5.

Tarislar

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« Reply #14 on: <02-22-19/0013:22> »
Ah, I didn't realize the restrictions on what the Dragon Contact had to be per the rules.

I don't relish the idea of dropping CS, but I've run 2 magicians in 5E, 1 had CS-6 from the start while the other bought CS1 after a couple runs & added 1 of his Services be CS from his summoned spirit.

It cost a service to have it running overwatch to cover us but it wasn't a horrid option by any means.

And if I have to loose something then I'd rather it be CS v/s any of the other Magic or Face skills.

The only thing I'd consider dropping instead is the Exotic Breath weapon but you start to really get away from the feel of being a Drake when you do that.