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A Guide to Gridguide

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Wakshaani

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« Reply #15 on: (00:18:07/02-17-19) »
You're talking about so many things that I want to talk about. gah!

gridGuide(tm) isn't REQUIRED in many places but it's getting there. Some municipalities are starting to pass laws about requiring it in certain areas … the Downtown areas of major sprawls for instance, or Manhattan, but not so much the suburbs or smaller towns … yet.

Insurance companies are increasingly giving people a choice as well … pay a huge premium for "Bate hand driving" or get a car with GridGuide(tm) and get super-low rates since they won't crash. This leverage is causing more people to make the move.

There's also some movement on the priority scale (manual control vs Pilot vs remote control) and a few other things.

I'm *super* glad that anybody but me cares about this. :D

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #16 on: (03:23:31/02-17-19) »
You're talking about so many things that I want to talk about. gah!

gridGuide(tm) isn't REQUIRED in many places but it's getting there. Some municipalities are starting to pass laws about requiring it in certain areas … the Downtown areas of major sprawls for instance, or Manhattan, but not so much the suburbs or smaller towns … yet.

Insurance companies are increasingly giving people a choice as well … pay a huge premium for "Bate hand driving" or get a car with GridGuide(tm) and get super-low rates since they won't crash. This leverage is causing more people to make the move.

There's also some movement on the priority scale (manual control vs Pilot vs remote control) and a few other things.

I'm *super* glad that anybody but me cares about this. :D
Oh god it sucks so much when people's debates trigger your NDA's conditions. Good luck restraining yourself. ^_^

As an asides, I remember how in my campaign, because I tried to nerf Movement while allowing it and didn't nerf it enough, GridGuide got really upset at people running invisibly over the highways at 100~200 km/h: Because sometimes a car would pierce the illusion and GG would freak. So GG wanted to have a 'word' with the Speedster, at which point the Speedster covertly paid a visit, all 'parking lot, dark and scary, "I heard you were looking for me"' and spooked the poor executive. Tosh Athack called up the runner and went 'how did you know they were looking for you' and was told 'I didn't, but it just felt like the right thing to say given the situation?'. Ah, characters that are writers for their dayjob... -,-

Anyway, eventually all Speedsters in Seattle made a covert deal with GridGuide: Either they use a GPS tracker that they enable solely when running over the roads and that they tell their intended directions, so traffic can keep them in mind... Or traffic won't keep them in mind, even if the illusion is pierced, and instead that eight-tonner will decide to scrape that concrete wall with a speedster inbetween the two...

((Under Movement = +F instead of Movement = xF*obstacleMulti, this would be less of a concern, but when people can run 100+ km/h, they WILL. And cut down a Roadmaster kidnapping a Decker while they're at it.))
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Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #17 on: (10:32:52/02-17-19) »
Gridguide's purpose is to allow coordination between vehicles well beyond LOS/vehicle-based sensor range.  If you've ever driven through a construction zone on the interstate, think about how one doofus braking too hard causes a ripple that magnifies back through traffic, sometimes culminating in someone getting rear-ended.  Gridguide eliminates that.  Under GG guidance vehicles maintain closer following distances at higher speeds than metahuman attention spans permit.  Cars under GG guidance don't accelerate only to have to come to a stop due to a traffic light.  They maintain steadier, more constant speeds.  Consider in the real world cars average about 20kph in dense urban environments (lots of time stuck motionless in gridlock/red lights) whereas Gridguide guided traffic averages 80kph in the same conditions! (SR5, pg 200).
None of that means that off-grid drivers are necessarily dangerous, though I will concede that most people don't have the skill needed to safely drive in downtown without Gridguide, and that most people who do have that skill are riggers.

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Your vehicle can get real-time status of at least the next three intersections (SR5 pg 421) and so your vehicle's speed can be tweaked to ensure you hit them all green.  Assuming they even HAVE lights; imagine almost any traffic-depicting scene in a Sci-Fi movie... streams of traffic cross right through each other with no collisions as individual cars all pass through the gaps between cars in the crossed stream!
Rigger 3 mentions traffic lights as being something that Gridguide controls. Furthermore, the very example you bring up specifically says "next three traffic lights", not "next three intersections", so we can assume that they're still around. After all, you need them for pedestrians, and why bother spending money to tear down pre-existing infrastructure when you can use it as a redundant safety factor?

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Think about that.  You can just flip a sudden Yooie into oncoming traffic and so long as you warned GridGuide, and "like magic" the traffic just parts and gives you a lane.
She was a tow truck/recovery vehicle driver. Along with other first response vehicles such as police vehicles, firetrucks and ambulances, tow trucks and recovery vehicles are mentioned in Rigger 3 to have Gridguide priorities and privileges other vehicles don't. I don't think this is a good example to use.

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And think about what that means if some of the oncoming traffic is NOT on GridGuide.
That is a question the designers and engineers of Gridguide have spent a lot of time thinking about. In that specific scenario, the u-turn is delayed until the off-grid vehicles have passed, much like if a pedestrian or large animal had wandered onto the road.

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And if you go pulling extreme maneuvers while not on GridGuide
Overlooking the fact that only a privileged few are allowed to pull extreme maneuvers while on Gridguide, consider: what makes this dangerous? Is it because you're doing something inherently dangerous, or because you're doing it without Gridguide? I should think the former.

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remember that vehicles under control of Gridguide are considered under the control of their Pilot program (SR5 pg 202).  Even assuming everyone involved has perfectly good sensors working on the vehicles, most vehicles Pilot ratings don't go higher than 2, and that's not a lot of dice to succeed on a Crash test.
I would point out that the Maneuvering autosoft provided by Gridguide increases that dicepool significantly, but I feel it would detract from my previous point.

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Anyway, this thread exists in part because I was the other partner in the OP's heated discussion.  It revolved around whether or not it's reasonable for municipalities to require GridGuide participation/usage.  Obviously it wouldn't be in places where GridGuide is not operational, natch.  But in certain cases, sure it'd be a no brainer that Gridguide be mandatory and noncompliance could result in being stopped and ticketed.
Consider, for a moment, the humble seatbelt. It provides great safety benefits, has no real downsides other than personal mobility within your vehicle, and all you have to do to use it is put it on. Think about how you, the average driver, feels about seatbelts, and hold onto that feeling for a sec.

Now, think about all the benefits Gridguide offers. You don't have to pay for fuel, it's almost impossible for you to get into a crash, you get better insurance rates for using it, you get to your destination in good time and you can let the car drive itself if you want. For the law-abiding citizen, there are literally no downsides to using Gridguide, and you don't have to do anything to use it; in fact, you'd have to go out of your way not to use it! Considering how you feel about seatbelts, how do you think the average driver in 2080 feels about Gridguide?

I must think that it is the case that either:
A) Gridguide is so ubiquitous and beloved that no one has felt the need to make it mandatory or
B) Gridguide is mandatory in some areas for safety reasons, but it is so ubiquitous and beloved that not using Gridguide in a mandated area is an extremely rare crime on its own. As such, it's like seatbelt usage in that it's not something that the police are constantly on the lookout for; rather, dangerous drivers are arrested for driving dangerously, and failure to use Gridguide in a mandated area is slapped on top of their dangerous driving offenses. Wakshaani's comments seem to indicate that this is the case, meaning that you could get away with driving off-grid if you were skilled enough to do it safely.

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Afterall, making any kind of turn or lane shift without being linked to GridGuide is in effect the same thing as doing it today without warning everyone around you by using your blinkers beforehand.
Let me explain why that isn't a valid comparison: the difference between turning with and without your blinker is how much time the driver behind you has to react to your turn. The difference between turning with and without Gridguide is whether or not the "driver" behind you has to react at all. Alright, maybe that makes off-grid driving sound worse, but it's not like people have stopped using their blinkers just because cars drive themselves now. A system like Gridguide would need to be built upon multiple redundancies for the sake of safety, and some of those redundancies would be the systems we use today. If an off-grid driver uses their signal lights to inform other vehicles of their actions and drives their vehicles in a reasonable manner, then Gridguide would be capable of accommodating them.

You're talking about so many things that I want to talk about. gah!

gridGuide(tm) isn't REQUIRED in many places but it's getting there. Some municipalities are starting to pass laws about requiring it in certain areas … the Downtown areas of major sprawls for instance, or Manhattan, but not so much the suburbs or smaller towns … yet.

Insurance companies are increasingly giving people a choice as well … pay a huge premium for "Bate hand driving" or get a car with GridGuide(tm) and get super-low rates since they won't crash. This leverage is causing more people to make the move.

There's also some movement on the priority scale (manual control vs Pilot vs remote control) and a few other things.

I'm *super* glad that anybody but me cares about this. :D
As long as I have your attention, might I ask a few questions? First, somewhere on Reddit you stated that Gridguide, like Skyguide, provides Maneuvering and Navigation autosofts to the vehicles using it. You also stated that there are different levels of service to Gridguide, so they're not always going to be R6 autosofts. Could you clarify those levels of service? Are they based on what area you're currently in, what level of lifestyle you're living, or something else?

Second, I noticed that Rigger 1, 2 and 3 state that Gridlink physically cannot provide power to vehicles exceeding the speed limit (this is by design) and that sometimes during rush hour the Gridlink power grid overloads and crashes; is this still true in 2080?

Third, what is difference between driving off-grid and driving with a Gridlink Override? Obviously the Override lets you keep several benefits of Gridguide, but how do the vehicles around you react? Does a Gridlink Override provide the priorities and privileges granted to first responders, or at least some of them?
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #18 on: (11:59:03/02-17-19) »
Only privileged users can do privileged things on Gridguide:
You're missing my point.  My point isn't that anyone can be the one making the U turn into oncoming traffic, my point is anyone can be part of the oncoming traffic that has a U turn appear right in front of them.  If you're on Gridguide, there's no crash test necessary. GG received the intention to U-turn via the Matrix, and it accommodates that intention immediately by diverting oncoming traffic "like magic".  If you're not on GG it can't warn you much less divert you over a lane or two, so by not being on GG you're driving into an unsafe condition and good luck with your crash test to avoid hitting the U-Turning vehicle.  That lack of safety is part of why I'm arguing that Gridguide would be mandatory in certain locales/contexts.

Of course your (imo) misguided counterpoint does raise a question in of itself: what's involved in a PC getting "privileged" GG status?  Gotta hack a host? Install a transponder?  Honestly, it's easier for me to wrangle that issue to decide that as of 5th edition, everyone is "privileged" and can pull a sudden Yooie if they have a desire to.  It's just that normal people have little to no reason to ever do so, barring suddenly changing their mind about where they want to head to. But if assuming "everyone" else is on GG, then it's not an issue to do sudden U Turns or similar.  Hence it being logical for GG participation being mandated.

Seatbelt analogy: I'm not sure what your point is.  I don't know about where you're from, but I've lived in 8 states and 5 foreign countries. Seatbelt usage is pretty well commonly mandated, and in many places I've lived it was a stopworthy offense (it's not just an added offense when stopped for some other reason, you can be pulled over simply because the seatbelt wasn't on).  As far as I'm concerned, comparing GG to seatbelts is making an argument that GG participation can in fact be legally mandated.

The blinker analogy: You seemed to be making a point about safety with regards to seatbelts (and again, I'm unclear on how that fits in with it not being appropriate for GG use being legally mandated) which segued into responding to my analogy comparing GG with using turn signals in the real world. Yes, there are other layers of safety that should result in yourself and everyone around you remaining safe if you don't use your turn signals (or GG).  However in the real world, removing layers of safety is something that's rather often sanctioned.  In the real world using your turn signals warns others of your intent, and yes if they're all driving defensively and paying attention if you don't use your turn signal before a lane shift noone gets hit and it was all "fine".  Do we disagree that the paradigm carries over to GG?  In-game, if you assume manual control of your vehicle and turn to head in a new direction, signals to Gridguide accompany your turn signals (assuming they don't replace them entirely).  Again if you're on grid guide, no crash tests are called for as it reacts "magically fast" compared to human reaction times.  If you're not on GG, it's the equivalent of making an unsignalled real life turn.  If every other layer of safety is in place, it'll probably be fine.  But in those circumstances where your participation in GG was the lone remaining layer of safety preventing a crash, you're risking a crash by removing that last layer of protection.  Again, just like failing to signal a turn may result in no impact 999 times out of a 1000, it's still illegal IRL.  I see no reason why the Sixth World equivalent of "using your turn signals" cannot be legally required.

OTOH I'd view it being a lot more common.  Interstates and similar highways, bridges, any toll routes, and etc.  Also many downtown through routes, especially elevated ones.
Unlikely, because toll routes, bridges etc aren't usually a place that a, can afford a full gridguide system, and b, are traffic-crowded enough to demand that. Downtown, on the other hand, definitely will be secured.

I dunno.. I think that many (if not most) toll routes and bridges satisfy both of your A and B. 

The context of Downtown GG raises another interesting thought: SR5 establishes the average speed of vehicles going thru densely urban areas on GG as 80kph.  That's like 50mph to "normal people"! :D  That's... awful fast in comparison to foot traffic potentially only a meter or two away over on the sidewalk. It sure sounds to me like Jaywalking is a MUCH bigger deal in GG areas than it is IRL.  So how DO they keep people from wandering into traffic causing crashes (again, Pilot ratings of most vehicles aren't up to the challenge of a probable crash test treshhold...)  A) Are GG roadways constructed similarly to Interstates in that there just ARE no roadside pedestrians (barriers, elevated roadways, etc?)  B) Is Jaywalking aggressively, even draconianally enforced? (Police drones swoop in to warn pedestrians if they so much as get close to the curb?)  C) do downtown GG roads reserve 80kph average speeds to the centermost lanes, and the curbside lanes require much slower speeds for exiting from/merging into the faster speeds in the center of the road?   I think C is the most probable answer.

Another thought related to the 80kph average speed factoid: How fast are vehicles travelling if the AVERAGE speed includes time spent idling at a stop sign or red light?  I prefer to rationalize that number as being evidence for an argument that vehicles on GG roadways DON'T stop at intersections.  There are no red lights.  (barring perhaps, those that turn red to permit pedestrian crossings).  Thanks to GG, everyone just blows thru intersections at about 80kph and noone hits one another because GG times their arrivals into intersections to allow safe "near misses" by RL standards.  And again if that is true, absolutely I have a hard time seeing it being legal to shut your GG off.
« Last Edit: (12:13:40/02-17-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #19 on: (13:31:56/02-17-19) »
Grid Guide only lanes.  Or, more likely, Manual lanes that Grid Guide uses as needed.  Any Manual drivers leaving the Manual Lanes would trigger a response, a ticket, drone flyby, or possibly a police stop.

And stopping at Red Lights would get most folks to flip on Grid Guide.  No way do most folks sit in traffic when their is an option to not.

You would have to account for Manual drivers because there will be some vehicles that aren't equipped for Grid Guide.  Or for security reasons won't be linked to Grid Guide, like competing corporate interests.  Would make extraction damn easy if the target handed over the controls to the car...  Rerouting... Rerouting... Rerouting... Welcome to your new home.   8)

Wakshaani

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« Reply #20 on: (13:35:49/02-17-19) »
As long as I have your attention, might I ask a few questions? First, somewhere on Reddit you stated that Gridguide, like Skyguide, provides Maneuvering and Navigation autosofts to the vehicles using it. You also stated that there are different levels of service to Gridguide, so they're not always going to be R6 autosofts. Could you clarify those levels of service? Are they based on what area you're currently in, what level of lifestyle you're living, or something else?

It'd be keyed to lifestyle. Low and Middle give you the basic program (Rating 4 autosofts) which are better than what your native Pilot program has, while high and Luxury give you the premium package (R6). Note that Luxury lifestyle people often get metahuman drivers to operate their vehicles as an example of opulence … these drivers get special permission to drive in GrideGuide(tm) required areas. Money! It gives you special rights.


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Second, I noticed that Rigger 1, 2 and 3 state that Gridlink physically cannot provide power to vehicles exceeding the speed limit (this is by design) and that sometimes during rush hour the Gridlink power grid overloads and crashes; is this still true in 2080?

Yeah, GridLink (different than GrideGuide!) … man. Lots about this one. I'd planned on having killed it off due to a whole host of things, but that didn't come to pass. It's a silly thing, IMHO, and undercuts a few things that would take a while to explain. BUT! I didn't get to pull that trigger.

Power issues in 2080 aren't a matter of generation so much as access. The corps *could* generate enough power to keep Seattle brightly lit up 24.7 if they really wanted, but, they don't. Access to juice is like access to real food, a way of marking privledge over your 'lessers'. As such, middle class and up get power, but the low and under get rationed levels. Streets are similar … main areas, like downtown, never have shortages. Once you move away from there, it comes down to how wealthy the area is. if you have money, you have power. if you're poor, it cuts off. If you're quite poor, you still have a gas-burner because there's never any juice in the road.


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Third, what is difference between driving off-grid and driving with a Gridlink Override? Obviously the Override lets you keep several benefits of Gridguide, but how do the vehicles around you react? Does a Gridlink Override provide the priorities and privileges granted to first responders, or at least some of them?

For that, you'd have a status chart:

1) First Responders
2) Priority vehicles (tow trucks, school buses, etc)
3) GrideGuide (tm) vehicles
4) Piloted vehicles
5) Operated vehicles

Over the past five years, forces have aligned to gradually make driving a worse and worse experience unless you submit to corporate control, so you wind up waiting longer for traffic lights, police officers pull you over more often, your insurance rates go up … there's just a constant string of minor nuisances that lead to people giving up freedom for a better experience. You're also seeing more cars being made without manual controls at all... why waste money on something you'll never use? Get a car with no pedals or a steering wheel, get a great deal on your insurance! You can just hop in the car, tell it where to go, then sit back, relax, and futz around on your commlink until you get dropped off at work.

There's a LOT of car stuff I want to talk about, but, I have to save something for (Future Product), right? :D I think that you can see the general goal, however. I have a lot to say about the psychology and sociology behind the change, why it wasn't earlier, when it progressed, when it fell back, some market forces … there's a lot of factors in this mix.

I love this stuff. :D

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #21 on: (13:38:52/02-17-19) »
You would have to account for Manual drivers because there will be some vehicles that aren't equipped for Grid Guide.

In 5th edition, actually, I don't think that's true. I don't have my Rigger 5.0 book handy at this moment but I'm positive there's a rule in there governing what it takes to remove GridGuide.  And like drones never saying they're rigger adapted (because they all are), vehicles never say they're GG compatible because they all are.

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Or for security reasons won't be linked to Grid Guide, like competing corporate interests.  Would make extraction damn easy if the target handed over the controls to the car...  Rerouting... Rerouting... Rerouting... Welcome to your new home.   8)

Nothing ever says hacking GG allows remote control of a vehicle.  In fact pg 202 says the opposite... cars guided by GG are under the control of the vehicle's autopilot.  You'll still need to hack the vehicle and get the 3 marks to exercise remote control, GG or no GG.
« Last Edit: (13:40:28/02-17-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #22 on: (13:43:55/02-17-19) »
Only privileged users can do privileged things on Gridguide:
You're missing my point.  My point isn't that anyone can be the one making the U turn into oncoming traffic, my point is anyone can be part of the oncoming traffic that has a U turn appear right in front of them.  If you're on Gridguide, there's no crash test necessary. GG received the intention to U-turn via the Matrix, and it accommodates that intention immediately by diverting oncoming traffic "like magic".  If you're not on GG it can't warn you
I'm going to stop you right there, because you're thinking about this backwards. If Gridguide can't warn you about a tow truck making a U-turn, then it considers you an obstacle and warns the tow truck driver about you. The U-turn will be delayed, and no one will crash.

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Seatbelt analogy: I'm not sure what your point is.  I don't know about where you're from, but I've lived in 8 states and 5 foreign countries. Seatbelt usage is pretty well commonly mandated, and in many places I've lived it was a stopworthy offense (it's not just an added offense when stopped for some other reason, you can be pulled over simply because the seatbelt wasn't on).  As far as I'm concerned, comparing GG to seatbelts is making an argument that GG participation can in fact be legally mandated.
When was the last time you heard of someone being pulled over for not wearing a seatbelt and no other offense? I'm going to guess it was decades ago, and if more recently it was in one of the poorer, less developed of those 5 other countries you've been to. My point is that due to the popularity of Gridguide, the police don't really look for off-grid vehicles, they look for vehicles being driven dangerously, almost all of which will be off-grid.

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Do we disagree that the paradigm carries over to GG?
Yes. As I said, the difference between turning with and without blinkers is how much time the driver behind you has to react to your turn. In Shadowrun terms, that difference in reaction time is the difference between having to make a vehicle test to not crash and not needing to make a vehicle test. Does driving off-grid force the vehicle behind you to make a vehicle test to not crash? No. Gridguide MUST have been engineered to accommodate off-grid vehicles to some degree: government and corps have their reasons to put off-grid vehicles on the streets, rigging overrules remote control and what if a vehicle suddenly loses its connection to Gridguide? To handle the first two cases, Gridguide must be able to handle a skilled driver (probably a rigger) using his signals and driving reasonably as a member of regular traffic. To handle the latter case, Gridguide must be able to handle a probably unskilled driver, but they only need to get themselves out of the stream of traffic so that they are not endangering anyone.

I'm not arguing that Gridguide isn't mandated in some areas, I'm arguing that off-grid driving isn't inherently dangerous and doing so won't immediately attract police attention. I must concede that most people are not skilled enough to drive off-grid safely and without getting pulled over, and that most of those who can do so are riggers.

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The context of Downtown GG raises another interesting thought: SR5 establishes the average speed of vehicles going thru densely urban areas on GG as 80kph.  That's like 50mph to "normal people"! :D  That's... awful fast in comparison to foot traffic potentially only a meter or two away over on the sidewalk. It sure sounds to me like Jaywalking is a MUCH bigger deal in GG areas than it is IRL.  So how DO they keep people from wandering into traffic causing crashes (again, Pilot ratings of most vehicles aren't up to the challenge of a probable crash test treshhold...)

Again, Gridguide increases that dicepool by providing a Maneuvering autosoft. But yeah, jaywalking is that much more dangerous now.

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A) Are GG roadways constructed similarly to Interstates in that there just ARE no roadside pedestrians (barriers, elevated roadways, etc?)  B) Is Jaywalking aggressively, even draconianally enforced? (Police drones swoop in to warn pedestrians if they so much as get close to the curb?)  C) do downtown GG roads reserve 80kph average speeds to the centermost lanes, and the curbside lanes require much slower speeds for exiting from/merging into the faster speeds in the center of the road?   I think C is the most probable answer.
This we can agree on. I think there would be places where A is the appropriate solution and having a few anti-jaywalking drones around certainly wouldn't hurt, but C is the most sensible option from an in-universe perspective, and it matches the literature and artwork of the setting.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide

Ajax

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« Reply #23 on: (13:46:06/02-17-19) »
I kinda like the idea of tiered GrideGuide service levels. GridGuide Basic™️ gets you from Point A to Point B, but you have to listen to fifteen seconds of curated and targeted advertising at every red light; GridGuide Green Lite™️ will automatically design a priority route to three destinations within your service area that will avoid all* red lights, construction zones, and other delays. “Never be late for work again!©️” GrideGuide Fast Lane™️ offers priority lane access and red light/delay avoidance to all destinations within your service area... and then there’s GridGuide Gran Tourismo™️, if you have to ask you can’t afford it.

* Well, most. See Terms & Conditions, sec. 45, paragraphs I through XLI.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #24 on: (13:48:11/02-17-19) »
I'm not arguing that Gridguide isn't mandated in some areas, I'm arguing that off-grid driving isn't inherently dangerous and doing so won't immediately attract police attention.

Ok. We agree it's (probably) mandated in some areas. 

We also agree that noncompliance is not the sort of thing that probably attracts immediate corrective action from traffic enforcement.

Can we agree then, in contexts where its use is mandated, that noncompliance with that requirement CAN result in a stop from traffic enforcement?
« Last Edit: (13:50:36/02-17-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #25 on: (13:50:12/02-17-19) »
Too many quotes. O_O Can one of you poke me once you reach consensus? My head hurts...
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #26 on: (13:52:19/02-17-19) »
Given how little info is out there about GG, I don't think either of us is willing to adopt the other's headcanon.

I'm more concerned with the root of the argument being my claim that it's plausible you could get into hot water with police attention for having a wireless-off vehicle on a road where GG participation is mandatory.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #27 on: (14:29:15/02-17-19) »
It'd be keyed to lifestyle. Low and Middle give you the basic program (Rating 4 autosofts) which are better than what your native Pilot program has, while high and Luxury give you the premium package (R6). Note that Luxury lifestyle people often get metahuman drivers to operate their vehicles as an example of opulence … these drivers get special permission to drive in GrideGuide(tm) required areas. Money! It gives you special rights.
Good to know. My rigger isn't the best at navigation, so I'll probably get some use out of the Navigation autosoft.

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Yeah, GridLink (different than GrideGuide!) … man. Lots about this one. I'd planned on having killed it off due to a whole host of things, but that didn't come to pass. It's a silly thing, IMHO, and undercuts a few things that would take a while to explain. BUT! I didn't get to pull that trigger.

Power issues in 2080 aren't a matter of generation so much as access. The corps *could* generate enough power to keep Seattle brightly lit up 24.7 if they really wanted, but, they don't. Access to juice is like access to real food, a way of marking privledge over your 'lessers'. As such, middle class and up get power, but the low and under get rationed levels. Streets are similar … main areas, like downtown, never have shortages. Once you move away from there, it comes down to how wealthy the area is. if you have money, you have power. if you're poor, it cuts off. If you're quite poor, you still have a gas-burner because there's never any juice in the road.
Kill Gridlink? Really? Well, I think it makes more sense to keep it around. Early Gridlink was a carrot to encourage people to obey the speed limit: you still had to pay for the power you got, buuuuut it was nice to not have to worry about recharging. Now that Gridlink power is free but you can't get it without submitting to Gridguide, that ups the carrot factor.

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For that, you'd have a status chart:

1) First Responders
2) Priority vehicles (tow trucks, school buses, etc)
3) GrideGuide (tm) vehicles
4) Piloted vehicles
5) Operated vehicles
Okay, so where on that chart is a vehicle with Gridlink Override? And just to settle the matter: can anyone on Grideguide make a U-turn on the 502, or is that sort of thing reserved for first responders and priority vehicles?

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Over the past five years, forces have aligned to gradually make driving a worse and worse experience unless you submit to corporate control, so you wind up waiting longer for traffic lights, police officers pull you over more often, your insurance rates go up … there's just a constant string of minor nuisances that lead to people giving up freedom for a better experience. You're also seeing more cars being made without manual controls at all... why waste money on something you'll never use? Get a car with no pedals or a steering wheel, get a great deal on your insurance! You can just hop in the car, tell it where to go, then sit back, relax, and futz around on your commlink until you get dropped off at work.

There's a LOT of car stuff I want to talk about, but, I have to save something for (Future Product), right? :D I think that you can see the general goal, however. I have a lot to say about the psychology and sociology behind the change, why it wasn't earlier, when it progressed, when it fell back, some market forces … there's a lot of factors in this mix.

I love this stuff. :D
I really would've liked to have seen this in Rigger 5.0, because it's important information for any riggers that focus on vehicles over drones. I really hope that future product comes out, though I don't know what sort of book it would be appropriate to discuss this in.

In 5th edition, actually, I don't think that's true. I don't have my Rigger 5.0 book handy at this moment but I'm positive there's a rule in there governing what it takes to remove GridGuide.  And like drones never saying they're rigger adapted (because they all are), vehicles never say they're GG compatible because they all are.
Rigger 5.0 doesn't explain how to remove your Gridlink, but it does state that it can be removed while presenting Gridlink Override as another option.

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Nothing ever says hacking GG allows remote control of a vehicle.  In fact pg 202 says the opposite... cars guided by GG are under the control of the vehicle's autopilot.  You'll still need to hack the vehicle and get the 3 marks to exercise remote control, GG or no GG.
Ah, but you forget: Gridguide is basically a very high powered RCC. The autopilot is in charge when it comes to things like 'don't hit that moose that just ran out onto the road', but Gridguide controls everything else.

Ok. We agree it's (probably) mandated in some areas. 

We also agree that noncompliance is not the sort of thing that probably attracts immediate corrective action from traffic enforcement.

Can we agree then, in contexts where its use is mandated, that noncompliance with that requirement CAN result in a stop from traffic enforcement?
Agreed.
« Last Edit: (14:31:12/02-17-19) by Ghost Rigger »
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide

RiggerBob

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« Reply #28 on: (15:08:02/02-17-19) »
When was the last time you heard of someone being pulled over for not wearing a seatbelt and no other offense? I'm going to guess it was decades ago, and if more recently it was in one of the poorer, less developed [...] countries.
As i was just pulled over last week for not wearing a seatbelt, i now feel sad for living in a poor and less developed country (Germany). Same thing happened to me a year ago on vacation (California; and it was much more expensive there  :-\ ).

Yes, not wearing a seatbelt without any other offense is sufficient to get pulled over in most countries (and in 2/3 of the states in the U.S.; i actually checked....). And checking for a seatbelt isn't that hard. Drive by, turn your head, done.

How much more difficult might checking for GridGuide be with all the AugmentedReality?
If there is a fine (and additional fees) involved and they can pull you over, they will  ;)

Hobbes

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« Reply #29 on: (15:43:36/02-17-19) »
You would have to account for Manual drivers because there will be some vehicles that aren't equipped for Grid Guide.

In 5th edition, actually, I don't think that's true. I don't have my Rigger 5.0 book handy at this moment but I'm positive there's a rule in there governing what it takes to remove GridGuide.  And like drones never saying they're rigger adapted (because they all are), vehicles never say they're GG compatible because they all are.

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Or for security reasons won't be linked to Grid Guide, like competing corporate interests.  Would make extraction damn easy if the target handed over the controls to the car...  Rerouting... Rerouting... Rerouting... Welcome to your new home.   8)

Nothing ever says hacking GG allows remote control of a vehicle.  In fact pg 202 says the opposite... cars guided by GG are under the control of the vehicle's autopilot.  You'll still need to hack the vehicle and get the 3 marks to exercise remote control, GG or no GG.

Either Grid Guide is driving or it isn't.  I mean... either you're letting Grid Guide get you from point A to point B, or you're not.  I have trouble seeing how you'd be able to skip traffic lights and all that cool stuff if you're driving.  The difference between the Autopilot driving to where Grid Guide sends it, and Grid Guide driving is pretty academic.  Ultimately Grid Guide decides where you're winding up.  And there are certainly going to be those who don't (and shouldn't) want that to happen.

And there are throw back vehicles without Grid Guide in production.  Thundercloud Morgan p. 52 Rigger 5.0 for example.  They may be oddities but they need to be accounted for.