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Buying off a negative quality at chargen?

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VanillaChai42

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« on: (23:42:06/02-11-19) »
So question is simple, it's specifically about the Uneducated quality most shapeshifters have but if it applies to anyone else, awesome.

So yeah, how does it work? Karma points ◊ 2 or just karma cost?

Thanks!

PiXeL01

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« Reply #1 on: (02:08:38/02-12-19) »
Im not sure whether you are even able to buy it off during character creation as it isnít mentioned anywhere in which case Iíd say it would have to be for karma cost x2 if you GM allows the move
If Tom Bradyís a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

fseperent

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« Reply #2 on: (02:57:01/02-12-19) »
During chargen, cost for removing negative qualities is normal.
It's only double after chargen.

PiXeL01

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« Reply #3 on: (03:33:09/02-12-19) »
This negative quality is not one bought through normal means but part of a racial package.
If Tom Bradyís a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #4 on: (05:07:23/02-12-19) »
Pixel, it is specifically mentioned in the "Creating a Shapeshifter" section on page 102 of Run Faster that the Negative Quality can be bought off with Karma. It simply specifies that a good reason is needed. In reference to Uneducated, you need a good reason why the shifter has been properly educated.

As for the cost, the only other instance of negative qualities needing to be bought off during chargen would be the Life Modules creation system. Normally, if you don't want a negative quality you simply wouldn't pick it, but like some racial-tied negatives, life modules can also apply negative qualities that you may want to remove before finishing up your character. Likewise, the life modules rules don't mention the cost being doubled at this step.

My opinion would be that since the character is not yet finished, the advancements costs don't apply. The cost to remove a Negative quality being valued at "Bonus Karma Value x2" is part of the character advancement rules. During creation qualities all just have values which are freely exchanged to and fro with karma, no need to double anything until after the creation stage is finished.

PiXeL01

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« Reply #5 on: (06:51:04/02-12-19) »
I stand corrected.  ;D

A good slap to get you back on the right track is needed now and again.
If Tom Bradyís a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

Wenlocke

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« Reply #6 on: (07:46:16/02-12-19) »
I stand corrected.  ;D

A good slap to get you back on the right track is needed now and again.

As a very wise Captain in a Gundam series once said:
"When a man strays from the right path, a kind man needs the courage to raise his fist and correct him."
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Mirikon

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« Reply #7 on: (10:21:43/02-13-19) »
Agreed that it would just cost the normal karma cost to remove a quality at chargen, but that is something you should talk to your GM about, both to make sure they are cool with it, and because the background of how a shifter, for instance, gets properly educated will likely have some bearing on the campaign.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #8 on: (10:30:12/02-13-19) »
...My opinion would be that since the character is not yet finished, the advancements costs don't apply. The cost to remove a Negative quality being valued at "Bonus Karma Value x2" is part of the character advancement rules. During creation qualities all just have values which are freely exchanged to and fro with karma, no need to double anything until after the creation stage is finished.

I also think this is a solid rationale.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #9 on: (10:28:00/02-15-19) »
Agreed that it would just cost the normal karma cost to remove a quality at chargen, but that is something you should talk to your GM about, both to make sure they are cool with it, and because the background of how a shifter, for instance, gets properly educated will likely have some bearing on the campaign.

Meh. This NQ and similar ones Iím more of the opinion you have to justify why you have them given how poorly designed they are. Not sure why they felt the need to add it to shifters as a base much less so many damn life path choices. Hey raised by wolves and are a shifter, thatís a start. Did you just leave your pack yesterday or something?  Itís not like itís not having a college education. Itís you are incapable of learning a wide range of knowledge skills and canít even guess. If you have been in society a year or so Iíd say thereís a rational for it being bought off. Hell there is more of a rational it was bought off than not after a year in society even as a runner.


Wenlocke

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« Reply #10 on: (12:04:44/02-15-19) »
You can usually tell when they haven't thought through qualities. We refer the honourable gentlebeing to Human lifespan from Complete Trog. A 10 point positive quality that has no effect other than to give you a roleplaying opportunity (based on average game length, even discounting death by violence you'll never get to the point where it's mechanically relevant (as there's no real boon/bane for age.)
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #11 on: (14:05:22/02-15-19) »
You can usually tell when they haven't thought through qualities. We refer the honourable gentlebeing to Human lifespan from Complete Trog. A 10 point positive quality that has no effect other than to give you a roleplaying opportunity (based on average game length, even discounting death by violence you'll never get to the point where it's mechanically relevant (as there's no real boon/bane for age.)

Yeah. I dug the spirit pact that gave you immortality in 4e? but it likely only put you back 5 points. 5 points is where I put the cost for pure RP qualities like a longer lifespan.  Also patch qualities like the alchemy ones should be 0 with a prerequisite or like 1-2 points.

Mirikon

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« Reply #12 on: (15:18:10/02-15-19) »
Agreed that it would just cost the normal karma cost to remove a quality at chargen, but that is something you should talk to your GM about, both to make sure they are cool with it, and because the background of how a shifter, for instance, gets properly educated will likely have some bearing on the campaign.

Meh. This NQ and similar ones Iím more of the opinion you have to justify why you have them given how poorly designed they are. Not sure why they felt the need to add it to shifters as a base much less so many damn life path choices. Hey raised by wolves and are a shifter, thatís a start. Did you just leave your pack yesterday or something?  Itís not like itís not having a college education. Itís you are incapable of learning a wide range of knowledge skills and canít even guess. If you have been in society a year or so Iíd say thereís a rational for it being bought off. Hell there is more of a rational it was bought off than not after a year in society even as a runner.
Well, remember that shifters are not people that turn into animals, they are animals that turn into people. Meaning they have, unless something else happens, an animal's lifespan. The average lifespan of a wolf in the wild is 6-8 years. So you're talking about someone that may be only 2-3 years old.
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #13 on: (16:34:59/02-15-19) »
Well, remember that shifters are not people that turn into animals, they are animals that turn into people. Meaning they have, unless something else happens, an animal's lifespan. The average lifespan of a wolf in the wild is 6-8 years. So you're talking about someone that may be only 2-3 years old.

Yes and no, Shapeshifters have a longer lifespan than the normal animal (originally thought to be similar to an ork's lifespan). I believe they initially mature at approximately the same rate as the base species, though. So a fully grown wolf shifter could be just a couple of years old, yes. But they aren't likely to die from old age in less than a decade. So a Shapeshifter PC could be closer to five or six without risking death from old age any time soon.

But as far as the reasoning goes for a Shifter having Uneducated? Yeah it makes sense. It's perfectly possible for you to be raised in an environment that leaves you with little to no education. And yes, you can then go on to educate yourself, but you are working from a disadvantage. Hence the negative quality, first you need to get that base education (buy off the quality) and then you can keep going. Makes perfect sense.
« Last Edit: (16:38:01/02-15-19) by Kiirnodel »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #14 on: (20:06:12/02-15-19) »
Sure thematically a shifter having a NQ called uneducated makes sense. The design of that NQ pretty much makes it make absolutely no sense at all for anyone.