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Some Rigging question

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The Crippled Decker

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« on: (18:06:02/02-11-19) »
One of my players, a Rigger, was looking through the Rigger 5.0 book and was confused at some of the modifications. He tried asking me and when I was looking though I was just as confused.

He was wondering what the difference between, the Universal Mirror Material and the Faraday Cage was. Since they both do the same thing on different scales, he was wondering what one should he do to protect the car and his stuff.

He also questioned about fule upgrades like Multifuel Engine, Suncell, and Gridlink Overdrive did. I know that it saves fuel, but is something like that GM dependent? Because if it is, I'll tell him it doesn't matter since I handwave stuff like fule away
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fseperent

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« Reply #1 on: (18:46:01/02-11-19) »
Not my normal style, but I'll give it a shot.

Gridink Override allows your vehicle to use energy from the Gridlink system, without the dangers of someone in Gridlink controlling your vehicle.

Suncell and Multifuel Engine are for those cases where Gridlink is not available.
Suncell absorbs sunlight to charge an auxiliary battery.
Multifuel Engine can take almost any raw material and convert it into energy.

No clue about Faraday Cage or Universal Mirror Material.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: (18:46:17/02-11-19) »
The first thing that's important to realize is there's two separate modification systems presented in R5.0.

The Drone modding rules on pgs 122-128 are technically optional.  You can ignore them entirely and just use the vehicle modding rules on pgs 151-171.  I'd caution doing so however.  Despite being optional, the game presumes you're using the optional Drone modding rules. If you don't use them, drone balance goes out the window.

Universal Mirror Material vs Faraday Cage: They both protect the vehicle, but they protect it against different things.  UMM is a Special Armor Modification (R5 pg 159) and as such it adds its rating to the armor value vs one single damage type.  (I can't find what UMM gives additional soak dice for, but I'd have to assume laser weapons).  OTOH, Electromagnetic Shielding (aka Faraday Cage) is another type of modification entirely- it gives no additional soak dice vs damage. What it does is defined on pg 231 of SR5: It flat out stops Matrix Actions.  While that's handy in protecting yourself against hostile hackers, it also sucks because NOONE can perform matrix actions inside or upon your vehicle. (remember, jumping in or remote controlling the vehicle are both matrix actions and therefore you can't do it) It's got niche applicability, but if being hack-proof is that important to you, that's what you can get.  Honestly, if you're afraid of hackers you should just Run Silent or in extreme cases turn wireless off completely (again, you can't use matrix actions on the vehicle while wireless is off completely but at least you can turn wireless back on after the hacker's been dealt with).

Fuel: It is important as the plot says it is.  In SR5 everything is presumed to be fully electric (or at least hybrid electric) unless specified otherwise.  Vehicles routinely draw power from Gridlink as they travel (basically like trolley cars).  So unless the mission takes you into the wilds or barrens, fuel is freely and constantly available.  The GM decides how long/far a vehicle or drone can go without being powered by GridLink.

Gridlink override: Gridlink is awesome.  Unlimited power, constant traffic updates, hell your car will even drive itself with virtually perfect safety.  However, the cops can track and even shut your car down thru Gridlink.  You probably don't like that.  So with a Gridlink override you don't have to decide whether or not to disable your vehicle's Gridlink!  Draw all the free power and data updates, and enjoy none of the tracking or shutting down of your vehicle!







RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #3 on: (21:17:18/02-11-19) »
Universal Mirror Material is a fabric and as such it is an upgrade to worn armor. You can't install it on a vehicle. It provides a Noise penalty to anything concealed inside the worn armor. That means any Matrix actions targeting those items are a bit more difficult, but not impossible, and this Noise can be overcome with the right equipment. A Faraday cage, on the other hand, blocks electromagnetic signals entirely; there is no hacking something inside a Faraday cage when you're on the outside. No ifs. No ands. No buts. When installed in a vehicle, a wire can be run through the cage so that some features or systems can penetrate the cage, effectively allowing it to be selective. It is an excellent option for the properly paranoid.

Now as for fuel and whatnot.....in day to day life, Gridlink is enough to never have to worry about fuel. On runs, 99% of the time Gridlink and Gridlink Override is enough to never have to worry about fuel. You'll have unlimited mileage in the city, and your tank is large enough to handle runs out in the barrens. However, if you don't prepare for it, that 1% can bend you over, pull your pants down and you get the idea. So while Improved Economy, Multifuel Engine and Suncell are not necessary modifications, I would strongly recommend having at least one of them, Suncell in particular since it doesn't take up Power Train slots.

Overall, a rigger needs to pick their modifications carefully, thinking about what's going to be useful in pretty much every run, what's going to be useful in less common cases, and what is going to save your ass when shit hits the fan. I could give examples, but it would be pretty much just me listing the modifications on my Ares Roadmaster and explaining why I got them.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: (22:21:48/02-11-19) »
Ah yes Universal Mirror Material is defined in RG pg 84.

Still, R5.0 allows it (without defining it) per pg 159.

Personally, I'd just rely on the rules for turning Wireless Off (pg. 421, SR5) if you need protection from being hacked.  It's free, and you can just as easily un-do it to restore your full capabilities with the vehicle when the hazard's passed.

As a GM, I'd rule that leaving wireless off on a vehicle or drone is a traffic safety hazard on par with driving at night without your headlights on.  Sure if you have thermographic you might not need your headlights... but the Po Po are STILL gonna pull you over eventually for being a menace to everyone else on the road.  Same thing if your car isn't communicating with the Matrix... so going "hackerproof" should be something you only do temporarily.
« Last Edit: (22:30:37/02-11-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Tarislar

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« Reply #5 on: (22:47:29/02-11-19) »
Is driving with Wireless off really that dangerous?

I mean, we have cars testing self driving today around town & I pass them all the time.

If your manually driving your manually driving, and they still have to have distance/visions sensors to tell them that its not clear to change lanes right?   

Its not like grid link does EVERYTHING for them right?   

Again, I'm assuming Gridlink is a bonus/addition to the pilot skill/system of the car which can still drive itself if it had too.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #6 on: (22:54:41/02-11-19) »
It's not that it's dangerous to you... as I said if you have great thermographic vision you don't need headlights at all.  But if you don't turn your headlights on at night, despite you being fine you're not visible to other drivers.

"Everything" is supposed to be wireless in 2080.  If you're not on the matrix your car isn't broadcasting its location, speed, etc to Gridlink.  Gridlink thinks the space you're in is vacant, and directs cars around you accordingly... If you make your 2000kgs of plastic and metal invisible to passive sensors, yeah that's gonna get your ass pulled over...

Sure, the cars around you might have active sensors that detect you at the stop light and stop the car before gridlink drives them right into you.  But removing that layer of safety is absolutely something that'd be illegal in any 'civilized' municpality (i.e. anywhere with working Gridlink...)
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #7 on: (09:01:47/02-12-19) »
Personally, I'd just rely on the rules for turning Wireless Off (pg. 421, SR5) if you need protection from being hacked. It's free, and you can just as easily un-do it to restore your full capabilities with the vehicle when the hazard's passed.
You're not thinking about this thoroughly enough. Turning off wireless means diddly-squat when you have a MacGuffin constantly broadcasting a signal, a wageslave with an implanted commlink, a CEO with a commlink up their nose (thanks, Kill Code), a G-man with an implanted cyberdeck, an unfriendly technomancer, tracking tags, a teammate prone to forgetting to go wireless when he needs to, etc. A Faraday cage grants absolute control over the signals coming in and out of a vehicle, allowing you to slowly extend your middle finger to circumstances and variables that might otherwise ruin your day.

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As a GM, I'd rule that leaving wireless off on a vehicle or drone is a traffic safety hazard on par with driving at night without your headlights on.  Sure if you have thermographic you might not need your headlights... but the Po Po are STILL gonna pull you over eventually for being a menace to everyone else on the road.  Same thing if your car isn't communicating with the Matrix... so going "hackerproof" should be something you only do temporarily.
It's not that it's dangerous to you... as I said if you have great thermographic vision you don't need headlights at all.  But if you don't turn your headlights on at night, despite you being fine you're not visible to other drivers.

"Everything" is supposed to be wireless in 2080.  If you're not on the matrix your car isn't broadcasting its location, speed, etc to Gridlink.  Gridlink thinks the space you're in is vacant, and directs cars around you accordingly... If you make your 2000kgs of plastic and metal invisible to passive sensors, yeah that's gonna get your ass pulled over...

Sure, the cars around you might have active sensors that detect you at the stop light and stop the car before gridlink drives them right into you.  But removing that layer of safety is absolutely something that'd be illegal in any 'civilized' municpality (i.e. anywhere with working Gridlink...)
I disagree. If Gridlink had no ability to detect things that weren't wireless, then it would have no way of dealing with people or animals that wander onto the street, vehicle wreckage too damaged to broadcast a signal, throwback vehicles and any large inanimate object that happens to fall onto the road. Furthermore, if driving a vehicle with the wireless off was illegal, then throwback vehicles would be double illegal, yet we see nothing to suggest that this is the case.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #8 on: (09:54:33/02-12-19) »
Turning off wireless means diddly-squat when you have a MacGuffin constantly broadcasting a signal...

True.  I wasn't saying EM Shielding was a waste of money; it absolutely has its uses above and beyond simply turning your car's wireless off.

I was saying that if your concern is making your car hackerproof*, then turning your car's wireless off is the option that's free, costs no mod points, and is easily reversible.

*yeah yeah Data Taps are a thing.  But if someone has access opportunity to plant a Data Tap, EM shielding probably won't protect either.

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If Gridlink had no ability to detect things that weren't wireless, then it would have no way of dealing with people or animals that wander onto the street, vehicle wreckage too damaged to broadcast a signal, throwback vehicles and any large inanimate object that happens to fall onto the road.


I think we're talking about two different things.  I wasn't saying that if you turn your wireless off you'd BE hit by cars that can't see you.  I was saying doing so would be violating modern traffic laws.

They're absolutely related but not at all the same thing.  Even if your car had a malfunction and it was cut off from the Matrix, presumably everything else moving on the road should be able to adapt.  "Should be able" is the operative phrase.  Taking away a redundant layer of traffic safety shouldn't result in a crash, but it will do so when (for whatever reason) the remaining redundant layers are also absent.  If the car coming up on the intersection has faulty sensors and you're off grid, it's both your faults when you get wiped out in a T-Bone collision.

Think about why Cops pull people over for having broken brake lights.  Other drivers should be paying attention and not need to be alerted that you're braking, right? They should be maintaining a safe following distance and be able to visually tell you're slowing down in time to safely avoid hitting you.  But despite that, you bet your ass you'll be pulled over eventually for having broken lights anyway.

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Furthermore, if driving a vehicle with the wireless off was illegal, then throwback vehicles would be double illegal, yet we see nothing to suggest that this is the case.

I get what you're saying, but it's a questionable argument.  Guns can be legally owned as well, but yet it's still illegal to shoot people with them.  The way I see it, you can own a 20th century car with no Wireless, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's "street legal" in 2080.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ixal

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« Reply #9 on: (10:38:14/02-12-19) »
I vaguely remember that GridGuide not knowing you are there and routing traffic through your space was mentiones on a book.
Or am I wrong?

The Crippled Decker

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« Reply #10 on: (11:24:32/02-12-19) »
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True.  I wasn't saying EM Shielding was a waste of money; it absolutely has its uses above and beyond simply turning your car's wireless off.

I was saying that if your concern is making your car hackerproof*, then turning your car's wireless off is the option that's free, costs no mod points, and is easily reversible.

*yeah yeah Data Taps are a thing.  But if someone has access opportunity to plant a Data Tap, EM shielding probably won't protect either.[Quote/]

What about making everything inside the car hackerproof?
When you have a wheelchair, a deck,a gun, and good allies you never need legs.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #11 on: (11:32:52/02-12-19) »
It's a free action to go fully wireless off. You can do it with your car, and your team can do it with their everything.

But sure, maybe you are transporting an extractee or a macguffin and you have no signal scanners or hackers, and you're worried your cargo could be broadcasting a tracking signal.  At times like that an EM shielded space is very valuable indeed.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #12 on: (11:55:05/02-12-19) »
Turning off wireless means diddly-squat when you have a MacGuffin constantly broadcasting a signal...

True.  I wasn't saying EM Shielding was a waste of money; it absolutely has its uses above and beyond simply turning your car's wireless off.

I was saying that if your concern is making your car hackerproof*, then turning your car's wireless off is the option that's free, costs no mod points, and is easily reversible.
Not that you have many reasons to let your car run wireless. When you're operating it from the inside, the only reason to have your wireless on is to use your Gridlink, and once you have the override installed I should think that your vehicle and your Gridlink are separate Matrix objects, even if they don't appear that way.

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*yeah yeah Data Taps are a thing.  But if someone has access opportunity to plant a Data Tap, EM shielding probably won't protect either.
It would, actually. A Faraday cage is a grounding system, so unless they connect to a wire that you've run through the cage, not even a Data Tap would work.

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I think we're talking about two different things.  I wasn't saying that if you turn your wireless off you'd BE hit by cars that can't see you.  I was saying doing so would be violating modern traffic laws.

They're absolutely related but not at all the same thing.  Even if your car had a malfunction and it was cut off from the Matrix, presumably everything else moving on the road should be able to adapt.  "Should be able" is the operative phrase.  Taking away a redundant layer of traffic safety shouldn't result in a crash, but it will do so when (for whatever reason) the remaining redundant layers are also absent.  If the car coming up on the intersection has faulty sensors and you're off grid, it's both your faults when you get wiped out in a T-Bone collision.

Think about why Cops pull people over for having broken brake lights.  Other drivers should be paying attention and not need to be alerted that you're braking, right? They should be maintaining a safe following distance and be able to visually tell you're slowing down in time to safely avoid hitting you.  But despite that, you bet your ass you'll be pulled over eventually for having broken lights anyway.
Nonsense. With the plethora of obstacles out there with no Matrix presence, Gridguide must depend on sensors just as much as, if not far more so than, matrix devices talking to each other. Otherwise it would make vehicles crash into fallen trees lying on the road, to say nothing of pedestrian collisions. Besides, look at modern anti-collision systems and try to tell me with a straight face that the corps wouldn't have developed something just as good if not better 60 years down the line. If anything, having faulty sensors would be equivalent to having broken brake lights, not going wireless.

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I get what you're saying, but it's a questionable argument.  Guns can be legally owned as well, but yet it's still illegal to shoot people with them.  The way I see it, you can own a 20th century car with no Wireless, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's "street legal" in 2080.
And yet, there is nothing in the setting details to suggest this.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: (14:22:57/02-12-19) »
Ghost Rigger, we're arguing whether five plus one is six or half a dozen.  It's kind of pointless.  My final thoughts on the topics we've been discussing:

If you want a vehicle to be remotely hackproof: turning wireless off works.  As does installing the EM shielding modification. There are pros and cons for either.
Wireless off: it's free, is quickly reversible, isn't subject to losing hacking protection if a door opens or if a window is shot out.
EM Shielding: stops potential tracking signals originating from inside the vehicle, not AS easy to Data Tap (requires power tools to drill a hole thru the body or undercarriage, more time/access, etc)

It's a matter of my personal opinion that the costs involved in EM shielding render it unnecessary given a free option already exists for the same hacking protection. EM shielding is only worth its cost for the purpose holding outgoing signals from going out, as far as I'm concerned.  If you don't agree, we don't agree.  Opinions tend to vary, and apparently ours do on this topic.

The consequences of being "dark" on gridguide: There are no rules for it because it's inherently locale-dependent.  Even in the same sprawl, the consequences for not being visible on GridGuide vary from Seattle's Downtown core and Redmond Barrens.  As far as I'm concerned, it's as inconceivable that it'd be permissible to drive on public, gridlink-equipped roadways without an active gridlink as it would be to drive at night with your headlights off.  For all the same reasons.  That cars "should" be able to avoid non-gridlink equipped hazards doesn't excuse a vehicle from the obligation to be on gridlink.  Except of course in places where it'd make sense that the law/cops don't care (rural areas, obviously places that don't have active Gridguide, etc)

Look at the example on pg 260 where the shadowrunner flips a Yooie on the 502. The Shadowrunner told gridguide she wanted to make a U-turn, and gridguide moved traffic out of her way to accomodate her desire.  That only works when the other cars on the 502 are on autopilot working with gridguide, but it's the sort of every-day occurance that sheds light on how out of the ordinary it'd be for your vehicle to NOT be on gridguide.  If it proves nothing else, this example shows that cutting your car off from the Matrix should be resulting in tougher thresholds for vehicle tests since you can't ask Gridguide to get people the frag out of your way.  But ultimately, it's all GM dependent.
« Last Edit: (14:26:43/02-12-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #14 on: (18:11:38/02-12-19) »
The consequences of being "dark" on gridguide: There are no rules for it because it's inherently locale-dependent.  Even in the same sprawl, the consequences for not being visible on GridGuide vary from Seattle's Downtown core and Redmond Barrens.  As far as I'm concerned, it's as inconceivable that it'd be permissible to drive on public, gridlink-equipped roadways without an active gridlink as it would be to drive at night with your headlights off.  For all the same reasons.  That cars "should" be able to avoid non-gridlink equipped hazards doesn't excuse a vehicle from the obligation to be on gridlink.  Except of course in places where it'd make sense that the law/cops don't care (rural areas, obviously places that don't have active Gridguide, etc)
It's funny how you keep talking about this like the police are A) capable of seeing whether or not your vehicle is on Gridguide and B) constantly looking for vehicles that aren't on Gridguide. In any event, you're severely underestimating how important sensors are. If a tree falls on the road, or a kid runs in front of your car, the matrix isn't going to tell you to stop, your sensors are. If there is, for some reason, any discrepancy between where the car in front of you is and where it's telling the matrix it is, your sensors will correct it before it becomes a deadly mistake. If a corp or the government decides that a certain vehicle of theirs needs to operate off the grid, you need your sensors to realize it's there. If we assume that the engineers behind Gridguide have any brains at all, then the matrix is used only to direct traffic and enforce speed limits. It is not used to prevent vehicles from crashing into things; there are just too many ways for that to go wrong. Sensors are not a matter of "should", they are enough to avoid any hazard. If your sensors aren't good enough for that, then you're driving blind and deaf.

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Look at the example on pg 260 where the shadowrunner flips a Yooie on the 502.
You mean the tow truck driver who probably has "Gridguide, tell people to get out of my way" privileges that other people don't?

Yeah, yeah, wageslaves and the other normies use Gridlink. In fact, it's so ubiquitous that no one will even think to check you for it. Bit of a pointless argument, since any smart runner is going to have an override and keep their gridlink on except for when they want to avoid detection anyways.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide