NEWS

Looking for a good spell to use against Drones and Vehicles (noob)

  • 59 Replies
  • 1124 Views

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • *
  • Posts: 7540
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #15 on: (07:37:00/02-12-19) »
Here's the test for Levitate:
You have to beat a threshold equal to the subject’s mass divided by 200 kilograms,
rounded up.

If you’re trying to levitate an item held by a living being, or levitate an unwilling living being, that being
can defend against the Spellcasting Test with Strength + Body.

Easier to stomach than OR on cars or smaller.
So what you're saying is that you believe Levitate against non-living beings should be completely unresisted? The only way to resist Levitate is being alive?
CorpSec when an alarm is triggered;: "This is so sad, Alexa play Shoot The Runner"

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1544
« Reply #16 on: (14:15:31/02-12-19) »
Here's the test for Levitate:
You have to beat a threshold equal to the subjectís mass divided by 200 kilograms,
rounded up.

If youíre trying to levitate an item held by a living being, or levitate an unwilling living being, that being
can defend against the Spellcasting Test with Strength + Body.

Easier to stomach than OR on cars or smaller.
So what you're saying is that you believe Levitate against non-living beings should be completely unresisted? The only way to resist Levitate is being alive?

My reading is that yes, objects have a threshold to beat based on weight, not a resistance test. I think that is intentional so levitate can do what its primary purpose is, which is lift heavy shit with magic. If you faced a OR test you'd lift either nothing or objects you could probably move around anyways, so why are you using a high force spell.  In 3e(maybe 2e my memory is shit) it had a table where it explicitly excluded levitate from the OR test. Obviously different editions and sometimes the effective copy and paste of language across editions causes issues, like magic fingers which also wouldn't face OR(though for a different reason) IMO should probably also have a reaction attribute as some physical skills that could be controlled by telekinetic hands use reaction, but when the spell was written there was no reaction attribute. So maybe the intent in this edition is for it to face OR and the wording was not updated, but the rules IMO are that it doesn't.  They are very explicit when OR is faced in a manipulation spell in the main book, so my assumption is the intent and rule is that when they don't mention it its not faced.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Troubleshooter
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1464
« Reply #17 on: (14:34:38/02-12-19) »
Every spell must have a resistance test; it's a mechanical necessity.

Otherwise spells without them are immune to Counterspelling.  (of course, that particular rule is STILL a problem in 2019 with regards to Indirect Area Combat spells; near as I can tell the generally accepted House Rule for counterspelling Fireballs is to just add the dice to the soak roll rather than the nonexistent defense test).

I'm of the opinion that spells like Levitate and Armor do have to overcome Object Resistance BECAUSE no resistance is given, not in spite of it. 

fseperent

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 361
« Reply #18 on: (14:54:20/02-12-19) »
So I have to beat OR to lift something light like a set of keys with Levitate?
How does that even make sense?

Ugh, I can see this going round and round.
Is there someone from the errata team to settle this?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Troubleshooter
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1464
« Reply #19 on: (15:04:49/02-12-19) »
So I have to beat OR to lift something light like a set of keys with Levitate?
How does that even make sense?

Ugh, I can see this going round and round.
Is there someone from the errata team to settle this?

Well let's presume there is no OR. How then does a mage counterspell you levitating the keys?  And if it's impossible, why should Levitate be impossible to counterspell?
« Last Edit: (15:39:34/02-12-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

fseperent

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 361
« Reply #20 on: (16:54:33/02-12-19) »
So I have to beat OR to lift something light like a set of keys with Levitate?
How does that even make sense?

Ugh, I can see this going round and round.
Is there someone from the errata team to settle this?

Well let's presume there is no OR. How then does a mage counterspell you levitating the keys?  And if it's impossible, why should Levitate be impossible to counterspell?

Levitate is a sustained spell so dispelling applies.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Troubleshooter
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1464
« Reply #21 on: (17:25:43/02-12-19) »
But how would the mechanics work for a Counterspell applied at the moment Levitate was cast?  (if not being a bonus to the OR)

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • *
  • Posts: 7540
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #22 on: (17:41:22/02-12-19) »
So I have to beat OR to lift something light like a set of keys with Levitate?
How does that even make sense?

Ugh, I can see this going round and round.
Is there someone from the errata team to settle this?

Well let's presume there is no OR. How then does a mage counterspell you levitating the keys?  And if it's impossible, why should Levitate be impossible to counterspell?

Levitate is a sustained spell so dispelling applies.
So you're saying Levitate cannot be Counterspelled, only Dispelled?
CorpSec when an alarm is triggered;: "This is so sad, Alexa play Shoot The Runner"

fseperent

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 361
« Reply #23 on: (17:54:48/02-12-19) »
But how would the mechanics work for a Counterspell applied at the moment Levitate was cast?  (if not being a bonus to the OR)

As a negative to the # of hits the Levitate scored.
If the number of hits on Levitate drops below threshold, the object drops.

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1544
« Reply #24 on: (18:28:46/02-12-19) »
So I have to beat OR to lift something light like a set of keys with Levitate?
How does that even make sense?

Ugh, I can see this going round and round.
Is there someone from the errata team to settle this?

Well let's presume there is no OR. How then does a mage counterspell you levitating the keys?  And if it's impossible, why should Levitate be impossible to counterspell?

Levitate is a sustained spell so dispelling applies.
So you're saying Levitate cannot be Counterspelled, only Dispelled?

A object not in the control of someone can't be counter-spelled. If it is in someones possession they can resist so a counter spell would work. It wouldn't be the only instance in this edition of spells avoiding counter spelling, maybe they should fix counter spelling someday.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5981
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #25 on: (19:01:20/02-12-19) »
Keep in mind too, you need LOS to the target of the spell... (and levitate had a range of touch, if I recall right...)

So your options are limited (remember, most glass in SR is one way!). So you are trying to float a vehicle and all occupants - gonna be heavy!

As for 'under care and control', well if there is someone driving the car (heck even sitting in it!) They are in 'control' of it for the purpose of the spell -so they can resist it.
(Don't even try the argument of keys and not touching, etc - that gets you a rulebook upside the head)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

fseperent

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 361
« Reply #26 on: (19:05:50/02-12-19) »
Levitate lists LOS as range.

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1544
« Reply #27 on: (20:26:32/02-12-19) »
Keep in mind too, you need LOS to the target of the spell... (and levitate had a range of touch, if I recall right...)

So your options are limited (remember, most glass in SR is one way!). So you are trying to float a vehicle and all occupants - gonna be heavy!

As for 'under care and control', well if there is someone driving the car (heck even sitting in it!) They are in 'control' of it for the purpose of the spell -so they can resist it.
(Don't even try the argument of keys and not touching, etc - that gets you a rulebook upside the head)

While it is LOS your other point covers probably 90% of the combat uses of the spell as almost everything you want to lift for the purpose of a fight will be in someones possession to some extent. Its pretty much drones that might have a issue, and a lot of the combat drones are heavy and its not doing much to stop them shooting you anyway as they have a turret.

Kiirnodel

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • *
  • Posts: 1408
« Reply #28 on: (21:25:42/02-12-19) »
The way I see it is OR always applies unless the spell (or spell category) specifies a different kind of resistance test.  Even spells that don't specify any resistance test at all, like Armor.

So Levitating a troll (over 200 kg) that isn't resisting is easier than an unattended commlink? The troll would be unresisted, but has a threshold of 2, while a commlink would get Object Resistance of 15+ dice? That doesn't sound right. Levitate specifies that there is a resistance test only if the subject of the spell is trying to avoid being levitated.

Object Resistance is used (for Manipulation spells) in the defense tests. Spells that don't need to be defended against wouldn't require a test. Armor and Levitate don't normally allow defense tests. Levitate in particular specifies the circumstances when you get a defense test. "If you're trying to levitate an item held by a living being, or levitate an unwilling living being, that being can defend against the Spellcasting Test with Strength + Body." That seems to be rather specific about when you get to defend against the Levitate spell.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Troubleshooter
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1464
« Reply #29 on: (22:47:35/02-12-19) »
The way I see it is OR always applies unless the spell (or spell category) specifies a different kind of resistance test.  Even spells that don't specify any resistance test at all, like Armor.

So Levitating a troll (over 200 kg) that isn't resisting is easier than an unattended commlink? The troll would be unresisted, but has a threshold of 2, while a commlink would get Object Resistance of 15+ dice? That doesn't sound right. Levitate specifies that there is a resistance test only if the subject of the spell is trying to avoid being levitated.

It sounds exactly right to me.  Yes, a credstick that weighs a couple grams is harder to levitate than a big honkin' rock or tree limb.  That's exactly how Object Resistance works.  That's how OR is meant to work.

Quote
Object Resistance is used (for Manipulation spells) in the defense tests. Spells that don't need to be defended against wouldn't require a test. Armor and Levitate don't normally allow defense tests. Levitate in particular specifies the circumstances when you get a defense test. "If you're trying to levitate an item held by a living being, or levitate an unwilling living being, that being can defend against the Spellcasting Test with Strength + Body." That seems to be rather specific about when you get to defend against the Levitate spell.

From the Manipulation Spells universal rules:
Quote
Physical: These spells affect physical forms and are
usually defended against with a living targetís Body +
Strength or an inanimate objectís Object Resistance dice
pool.

Since Levitation calls out Body + Strength for a resisting, living target... it sounds to me like OR is not just appropriate for Levitate (a Physical Manipulation spell) but it's implicitly invoked.