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Do people actually use Aspected Magicans?

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #30 on: (07:38:30/02-12-19) »
Yeah I really wish Mystic Adepts were Aspected Magicians with Adept powers (pick one: Spellcasting, Conjuring, or Enchanting) rather than Full magicians with Adept powers.

Even then tho, why the hell would you play an Aspected Magician :(
I really want to work through FA's options for this.
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Marcus

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« Reply #31 on: (20:58:13/02-12-19) »
I do think MA needs to be reigned in, and further I do think  Aspected needs to be encouraged. The reality of the setting is Aspect should be a heck of alot more common then full mages. I would suggest lower aspect priority, and keeping them on a good magic and good magic skill level. Allowing Aspected to fall to second or third tier priority encourages more diverse builds.  Aspect can enhance plenty of other rolls.
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Ixal

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« Reply #32 on: (05:04:20/02-13-19) »
I do think MA needs to be reigned in, and further I do think  Aspected needs to be encouraged. The reality of the setting is Aspect should be a heck of alot more common then full mages. I would suggest lower aspect priority, and keeping them on a good magic and good magic skill level. Allowing Aspected to fall to second or third tier priority encourages more diverse builds.  Aspect can enhance plenty of other rolls.

Do you think it would be enough to give aspected the same MAG, skills and free spells (services for conjurers) as full mages get only at 1 priority lower?

Marcus

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« Reply #33 on: (05:10:07/02-13-19) »
I do think MA needs to be reigned in, and further I do think  Aspected needs to be encouraged. The reality of the setting is Aspect should be a heck of alot more common then full mages. I would suggest lower aspect priority, and keeping them on a good magic and good magic skill level. Allowing Aspected to fall to second or third tier priority encourages more diverse builds.  Aspect can enhance plenty of other rolls.

Do you think it would be enough to give aspected the same MAG, skills and free spells (services for conjurers) as full mages get only at 1 priority lower?

Probably too much lol. But it certainly would make a lot attractive lol.

I was thinking something like Priority C Aspected Magician Magic 5 Magic Skill Group 4. (Which is basically the current priority B) then Make Priority B Aspected Magician Magic 6 Skill Group 6
« Last Edit: (05:19:25/02-13-19) by Marcus »
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FST_Gemstar

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« Reply #34 on: (09:16:34/02-13-19) »
I love aspected magicians!

Even before FA!

People need to remember they are practical magicians, not magical experts. They use magic to compliment another specialty, their specialty isn't magic. 

In that respect, they are more like adepts, than magicians. 

Additionally, their sweet spot is that they are not most efficient with Magic 6 (usually). Really, they benefit from just having a magic rating. Because Magic D is the most bang for your buck D priority, aspected magicians can get a lot of value out of that rating without losing out on much. 

Magic 1 gets you a mentor spirit, access to a skill tree, spells/spirits/preps, assensing, [counterspelling], foci (particularly weapon foci), magic qualities, metamagics, and access to more Magic as your character develops, etc. 

I'll post some ideas/builds later: 

Wakshaani

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« Reply #35 on: (12:36:05/02-13-19) »
Removing Enchanting from Mystical Adepts is an attempt to balance them since trading Adept Powers for Astral Projection is most certainly not a fair trade. Honestly, Astral + Enchanting still isn't really but it's closer.

The big problem is that we let too much magic slide through the core chart and pulling that back at this stage would cause a riot.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #36 on: (16:28:54/02-13-19) »
So it was deliberate? Sigh... More proof that Pegasus just tries to errata blindly.
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Marcus

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« Reply #37 on: (19:08:31/02-13-19) »
Removing Enchanting from Mystical Adepts is an attempt to balance them since trading Adept Powers for Astral Projection is most certainly not a fair trade. Honestly, Astral + Enchanting still isn't really but it's closer.

The big problem is that we let too much magic slide through the core chart and pulling that back at this stage would cause a riot.

The longer you wait the worse it gets. I'd argue Jack the chart and roll it back. Anyone who is running a full developed MA know's that it's broken. The Riots will end, everyone will be better for it.
« Last Edit: (20:14:45/02-13-19) by Marcus »
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FST_Gemstar

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« Reply #38 on: (21:36:07/02-13-19) »
Building Aspected Magician Principles: 

Aspected Magicians are practical magicians, not expert magicians:
That is, they use their magic to compliment a non-magic specialty, unlike magicians who are optimized to be magical specialists. This makes them more like adepts than full magicians. Aspected magicians are deckers, faces, combatants, etc. with magical tools at their disposal. It should not be their job to cover the role of magical specialist solely if a magical specialist is required, though many aspected magicians can pick up some of those duties in a pinch or compliment a more traditional magical specialist.

Aspected Magicians take advantage of low Magic ratings: 
While aspected magicians are closest in design to adepts, their difference is that adepts scale with higher magic (more magic = more power points and more potential initiations = more power points) and aspected magicians don't. Their value is that they can keep a low magic and leverage it for their particular roles.

There are a lot of great things that you can do well with just Magic 1, including: Assensing, Counterspelling, wield a weapon focus, use other foci, have a mentor spirit, learn a metamagic, and access magical qualities. 

Ritual Spellcasting and Alchemy use Magic in dice pools, but they are not limited by Magic rating (but by magical lodge rating and reagents), allowing people to be good at them without a high Magic rating, cobbling dice pools together with mentors, specializations, qualities, and foci. Foci for these pools are more broadly applied than more typical spell/spirit ones. Ex. Magic 1, Ritual 6, Spec 2, Foci 4 gets 13 dice for ritual tests, which has very good odds against F4 rituals (eight dice). Mentor spirits, Restricted Gear with R8 foci, etc. you can get this much higher.

Priority D Magic is your friend (almost always):
Besides some niche builds that are probably better built as full magicians anyway, you want to take Aspected at Priority D. The step up from E to D is rather minor in every other category, but going from mundane to Magic is a huge deal, opening a ton of fun things to play with and avenues for future growth.

This is also a bonus compared to magicians and adepts, because you need minimal investment at character generation in Magic, letting your magical character take advantage of having high priorities in other domains. Being able to be a more priority intensive metatype, having resources for 'ware/foci/gear, having higher edge, etc. can be really valuable for your character!

Aspected magicians can see meaningful growth in play:
Unlike other shadowrun builds where even in the longest campaigns your characters aren't experiencing more than 20% growth (ex. 150 karma) and growth that happens is usually wide (ex. picking up a few new skills and such) instead of tall (ex.increasing maxed attributes), aspected magicians can see dramatic growth throughout their campaign. Ex. Raising Magic from 1 to 2 and picking up two metamagics is only 40 karma. This can ramp up a competent character at character generation into something much more interesting/powerful very early on. Compare to a Magic 6 magician who who needs 50 karma to initiate and raise Magic to 7. It's a a power boost, but it isn't all that dramatic in comparison nor change much about your character.

Basically, your initial build should be optimized enough to your non-magic specialty; you should have a character that highly competent in their role. But instead of investing in direct growth in that specialty, aspected magicians can target growth at the more dramatic and faster occuring magic area (learning new spells, metamagics, getting new foci, etc. raising magic from low to medium) that also indirectly makes you better at your specialty. 

Character Concepts
I have more of a list somewhere, and I can post more builds if people like. The forums don't have a spoiler option anymore so I don't like putting full builds into comments unless desired.   

Two characters I have played:
Intuitive Private Investigator -
Priority: EBDAC (human, any)
A social expert with minors (in this case infiltration and assensing/ guidance spirits) that takes up psychometry early in their career. This character type works just fine as a face, can mind their own in a fight, and brings unique magical elements to the table. This example character is an aspected conjurer, but works with any aspected magician (Aware and Apprentice included).   
Osmosis: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6kA-rvHAq-reHJ3TF9SU29ZQ1U/view

Channeling VR Decker -
Priority:  AEDCB (dwarf, conjurer)
This unique aspected conjurer is a VR decker that can summon its own body guard (F6 Guardian Spirit) when going VR limp. GM permitting, (I of course would allow it), after the character picks up channeling, the decker do matrix stuff in VR while a channelled spirit can animate their body--a VR decker that can leave its body functional in the hands of a spirit!
Waterloo: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6kA-rvHAq-rR3UyLUJfY29tMFU/view


Other concepts:
Anti-Magic Melee/Tank Cybersamuari -
A Magic 1 aspected sorcerer with high counterspelling and a weapon focus. This lets your physical focused character be able to be less vulnerable spells, particularly direct ones, and be able to go more toe-to-toe with creatures with hardened armor/astral. Compares to a melee adept, but trades some initiative/dodge for armor/hardiness/magical defense.

Channeling Melee Combatant
Priority: BADEC (ork,conjurer)
Basically max Agility and soft max all other physicals to be at max 7. Magic 4, Edge 3. Skills only go to a weapon, summoning, and basics. Use resources to get a weapon focus and a summoning focus, nice armor/outfits, cool car, etc. Once you get channeling, your combat prowess goes way up, getting a big initiative boost, a +4 to all physicals, and spirit powers. 

Troll Face Conjurer!
Priority: AEDBC (Conjurer, Troll)
There is always someone who wants to play a troll face magician. Aspected troll face conjurers are actually a lot of fun! A Magic 4 troll with a cyberarm and some charisma boosters can be an excellent face, pistoleer, and summon meaningful spirits!

Necromancer!
Necromancy is kind of a crappily worded metamagic that has a lot of past edition copy and paste issues. It is not worth it for a character who actually is good at summoning spirits and casting spells. But as an Magic D Apprentice, a character can fulfill the pre-req of being able to summon spirits of man and use rituals and learn Necromancy. Necromancy is a metamagic that has a lot of rituals to learn within the single metamagic (karma efficient), and its rituals take minutes instead of hours (making them more practical in more campaigns). With just a little investment in a Ritual spellcasting pool, you can have a competent shadowrunner who is also a Necromancer!
« Last Edit: (21:40:17/02-13-19) by FST_Gemstar »

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #39 on: (21:56:50/02-13-19) »
Osmosis: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6kA-rvHAq-reHJ3TF9SU29ZQ1U/view

People always seem to miss the fact that Essence loss reduces current Magic rating as well, meaning this character has lost all Magic.

Quote from: Core Rulebook, 2nd Printing, Page 278, under the heading "Magic"
Anything that reduces your Essence also reduces your Magic rating. For every point (or fraction thereof) of Essence lost, both your current Magic Attribute and your maximum Magic Rating are reduced by one.

You need to start with a Magic/Resonance of 2 if you want any implants - or you might as well make a mundane at that point.

FST_Gemstar

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« Reply #40 on: (22:00:27/02-13-19) »
Aspected D Magicians start with Magic 2. Taking one essence of of 'ware and you can keep Magic 1. I use Magic 1 as an example because you only need Magic 1 to do all sorts of amazing magic things. Aspected D magicians start with Magic 2, however (allowing them to take advantage of 'ware with minimal waste).

Osmosis started with Magic 2, took .99 essence of 'ware, lost a point of magic and max magic, so now has Magic 1.

There are also ways to just burn out and buy magic back in play, but none of my build suggestions (except some builds of a the counterspelling samurai), do that. Many builds also might decide to keep magic from hitting 0 using special points, but that is usually not all that useful for aspected magicians except in very particular contexts.
« Last Edit: (22:05:14/02-13-19) by FST_Gemstar »

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #41 on: (22:08:00/02-13-19) »
Aspected D Magicians start with Magic 2.

You got me.

I misremembered D being Magic of 1.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #42 on: (22:55:26/02-13-19) »
Removing Enchanting from Mystical Adepts is an attempt to balance them since trading Adept Powers for Astral Projection is most certainly not a fair trade. Honestly, Astral + Enchanting still isn't really but it's closer.

The big problem is that we let too much magic slide through the core chart and pulling that back at this stage would cause a riot.

The longer you wait the worse it gets. I'd argue Jack the chart and roll it back. Anyone who is running a full developed MA know's that it's broken. The Riots will end, everyone will be better for it.

Itís pretty late game to do an errata but better late than never I guess. MA got too much, aspected got too little. Regular adepts/mages are just right. Well sort of. I think the magic level # of free spells etc is right. Just some core elements of the magic game are kind of broke.

Glyph

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« Reply #43 on: (01:10:38/02-15-19) »
Mystic adepts have to expend 30 points from their limited pool of starting Karma to have 6 power points to start with, and one of those points should go towards astral perception so that the character can clean their astral signature.  After that, they progress at about half the rate of a regular adept (who gets a point automatically for raising their Magic and have the same option of getting one in lieu of a metamagic).  So they can't compete with a regular adept, at being an adept.  So, better to concentrate on being a mage with 6 points of adept powers which are likely to remain 6 points of adept powers, mostly.  Which is very nice, don't get me wrong, but the focused concentration: 5 quality gives you a similar (slightly weaker but more flexible) boost.  After character creation, advancement slows down a lot.  That is what I meant when I said they were front-loaded.  They are still often a slightly more optimal choice than a mage.

I guess I cringe whenever I hear something described as "OP", because that usually leads to either fun-sucking nerfs that worsen the game (background count, hackable cyberware, overwatch score, etc.), or passive-agressive douchebaggery from GMs,


Aspected mages are horrible in sum-to-ten.  Look at what they get  - they need to pick a metatype level with bonuses to even out start with a magic of 6.  Then they get skill groups instead of skills, capped at 4, so they need skills at C or better to even start out with their core skills at 6, and have to use starting Karma for specializations. And to top it all off, sorcerers don't get free spell points!  Yeah, I hear FA has an option that fixes the last one, but fixes shouldn't come in a magic rules supplement (and not even the first one).  If the eratta completely changes what technomancers get, why not not do the same for aspected magicians?  In SR3, I played sorcerers all the time.

I will note that Point Build fixes these problems.  Aspected magicians have a lower base cost (and mysads cost slightly more), everyone buys spells, and you buy what you want, skill-wise.  A full mage flat-out spends more than a sorcerer or conjurer if he wants spellcasting and summoning.  The only problem with Point Build is that it tends to make ALL non-adept builds weaker.

FST_Gemstar

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« Reply #44 on: (07:07:48/02-15-19) »
Apected Magicians are almost always only worth taking at Priority D.

They almost always should NOT have Magic 6.

For most, starting with Magic 1 or 2 and staying there works fine. 

The point of being an Aspected Magician is to leverage the perks of just having a Magic rating for characters who are not magic specialist.

See principles above.