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How much do you use the matrix in your games ?

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #60 on: (22:23:17/02-23-19) »
The SINless don't have the rights of citizens.  They're treated like subhumans, and in certain jurisdictions they're pretty much legally not even people.

But a Nuyen coming from the SINless spends the same as a Nuyen from the SINner.  And they're a ton cheaper to employ than SINners.  You gotta comply with safety regulations, taxes, and all sorts of annoying things on SINner employees...


Look at the example of the Seattle Ork Underground.  Most everyone is SINless, and most everyone actually has a paying job working for "The Man" as janitors or dock workers other menial labor above ground.  The arrangement works out for everyone involved... the SINless get money, and the city gets a place where the SINless can literally go out of eyesight when they're done with their shift.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #61 on: (05:57:38/02-24-19) »
We don't have the requirement, yet, to electronically broadcast the equivalent of a green card.
And if that day comes, you're still going to find that plenty of people are willing to look the other way if Diego Garcia wants to buy some potato chips and beef jerky with cash at the corner store.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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CanRay

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« Reply #62 on: (12:44:33/02-24-19) »
UCAS$ are a thing in my game as it is going, and my group is having to deal with the fact that they're getting fat stacks of the stuff rather than Nuyen in an electronic format (Thousands of Nuyen take up less space in credsticks than Tens of Thousands of UCAS$ in bills, even if they are $1000 bills!).

They do like that it is untraceable, and appreciate being handed a briefcase or suitcase of money rather than a pocket protector with a "pen" in it.
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #63 on: (19:34:32/02-24-19) »
Most everyone is SINless, and most everyone actually has a paying job working for "The Man" as janitors or dock workers other menial labor above ground.

That sounds suspiciously like a Day Job (Run Faster, page 154).  And as we all know, that requires a legit SINner quality, or at least a Rating 4 Fake SIN to hold down.

I can even see it being part of the hiring process:

"Now, you do know you need a SIN, Mr. Zork?  Not to worry.  We can get you one.  We will cover the money up front, and then dock you pay until you pay it back.  With interest, of course.  Assuming you want some money to take home each pay period, it should take about...  Five years to pay it all back.  If you should quit or be terminated before that time, you will owe the remainder immediately."

Again, SINs are required to be broadcast at all times. The last thing you want is to have the local LEO's show up for another matter and notice that your work force doesn't have any SINs...

And if that day comes, you're still going to find that plenty of people are willing to look the other way if Diego Garcia wants to buy some potato chips and beef jerky with cash at the corner store.

Individuals?  Yeah, sure.  Maybe.  But how many of those individuals will be in a position to do legitimate business with the SINless?  The falafel cart on the corner, maybe the local grocery store.  Whatever Mom & Pop Shops can squeeze out a living in the corporate world, perhaps...  But that will be truly risky for them.

Let me put it another way.  The local gang trashes the Stuffer Shack and makes off with a couple of bags of Stuff'ed Burritos and a bag or two of Shack Sliders.  Do you really think that the Shacks insurance company will honor the claim when they find out there wasn't a SIN checker covering the door?

Sure, the gang likely won't be broadcasting any SINs, and if they do they will be fakes.  The Shack manager is just living up to the corporate motto "Always CYA."
If the SINs are fake, at least there is info for the LEOs to follow up on.  Yeah, Jane Smith and John Doe probably won't amount to much...  However the Shack manager did their job.
And if the SIN checker didn't detect any SINs, then the LEOs would have been alerted to the presence of vagrants automatically.  It will be the LEOs fault if they didn't show up in time.

The last thing you want when you are a cog in the machine is an unforced error.  Even a Rating 1 SIN checker will CYA.

Reaver

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« Reply #64 on: (20:41:51/02-24-19) »
You are only required to broadcast a SIN in 'A' rated areas of the city. Which is usually the downtown financial areas and the high class neighborhoods.

Everywhere else, they don't care.

What you are forgetting is even the law enforcement is privatized, and that officer assigned to your stuffer shack robbery is given 'X' hours to solve the crime.

I forget the book but they pegged the typical allotted time for a murder investigation at 100 man hours.... or about 2 full days for a pair of officers.

Crime is a daily fact in SR and as long the unwashed masses are kept well away from the Uber wealthy and the movers and shakers of the city: The rest can burn.

(And by the way, you would be hard pressed to find a stuffershack in an 'A' rated area. They are too 'Blue collar' for all those Suits to eat at.)
« Last Edit: (21:51:42/02-24-19) by Reaver »
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Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #65 on: (20:55:15/02-24-19) »
Let me put it another way.  The local gang trashes the Stuffer Shack and makes off with a couple of bags of Stuff'ed Burritos and a bag or two of Shack Sliders.  Do you really think that the Shacks insurance company will honor the claim when they find out there wasn't a SIN checker covering the door?
Stuffer Shack doesn't need insurance. Stuffer Shack is a subsidiary of Aztechnology, and the AAA corp will certainly cover costs like these. So you see, Stuffer Shack won't be eager to check the SINs of potential customers if Aztechnology doesn't want them to, and if Aztechnology wants to harvest the credstick nuyen of the SINless (spoiler alert: they do), then Stuffer Shack isn't going to be checking the SIN of everyone who walks through the door, nor will it require a broadcast of a SIN. Though as Reaver pointed out, you'd never be expected to broadcast your SIN in a Stuffer Shack neighborhood anyways.

Furthermore, you fundamentally misunderstand what a SIN checker is. You think that whenever a SINless walks through the doorway of a building, a blaring alarm sounds and 60 KE officers show up, break his legs and lock him in a cell with Bubba the love troll, who has been given enough Viagra to make an elephant hard. That's not how it works at all; SIN checkers do not constantly check everyone in an area around them. They are handheld devices that figure of authority can use to check individual commlinks for the SINs of their owners. The process is more like having your ID checked at the border (most common use of SIN checkers, by the way) or when an officer pulls you over. For less risky encounters, think of the SINless as 16 year olds and SIN checks as bartenders asking for ID: as long as you're ordering food (items with no restrictions on them), there's no issue. But once you start asking for alcohol (restricted items), you better have some good fake ID or they'll kick you and your friends out. And if it's a strip club (restricted zone)? Well, they'll check your ID at the door. Maybe you'll get lucky and pass for an adult (a SINner) because you dress and act like one, but don't ever count on it.

(And by the way, you woukd be hard pressed to find a stuffer shack in an 'A' rated area. They are too 'Blue collar' for all those Suits to eat at.)
But then how do the rich people get their beef jerky, potato chips and gas masks in one convenient stop?
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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RiggerBob

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« Reply #66 on: (20:59:29/02-24-19) »
We know that SIN scanners are everywhere because you need a Fake SIN just so you can hit up the Stuffer Shack without them calling the authorities on you for being a vagrant.
No, SIN scanners aren't everywhere. The SIN you broadcast is an alphanumerical string (created by a complex algorithm from vital statistics like name, date and location of birth and the nation/corp that issued the SIN), nothing more.

Everything else is in several databases (local, government, corporate, global...). Running these databases costs money, so in a world where everything is about the money you can bet accessing them isn't free.

That's the whole point of different SIN scanner ratings. The low rating ones (R1-2) will only check if the presented number is a valid SIN-string or just something completely random. Better scanners may query some database if there is an entry at all (R3) or even look at the basic vital statistics (metatxpe, age, sex). Only the high-end scanners (R5+) start to look at the details and cross-reference several databases.

Could a StufferShack use a high-rating SIN scanner? Sure... But why would they? The scanner costs money, the check costs time (more time for a more detailed check) which again costs money. And when they find a fake SIN they lose the money that customer would have spend. So StufferShack checks if there is a SIN broadcasted at all, maybe have some very low-rated scanner, to keep the SINless out and that's it.

Basically the same is true for many buildings. Some may be more interested in keeping low-lifes with a cheap fake-SIN out, but once there is a higher influx of visitors than in your local StufferShack checking them all extensively gets expensive.

Since SINs are required to be broadcast at all times, it is nearly impossible for a Shadowrunner to even enter a non-public area in a building.
Entering non-public areas is something mostly unrelated to (fake-)SINs. Or do you think having a real SIN helps you, if you are detected somewhere you don't belong?

Either you get in (and around) there undetected or you use the (stolen) SIN of someone who belongs there. In the second case it's more a matter of getting in (that's where the checks take place). Constantly checking everyone's SIN is too expensive, if you want better security you beef up the entry checks or do some random checks inside (which can be avoided).

Then, of course, that doesn't take into account that Personas are made of - among many other things - "usage patterns."  That means it is easy to imagine that if you don't operate the icon/device you are manipulating in the same way as the person your imitating it could trip security.
A bad analogy would be think of typing speed.  If you don't type at the same speed as the person you are imitating, the system can detect something is wrong and trip security.

Which brings us back to the SIN databases and every other info about someone, be it typing pattern, shopping history or anything else, linked to SIN or not.

The corporations aren't keen on sharing, as every piece of data may have some value (see: data-balkanization). If they would, creating profiles would be possible. But in the world as written that's simply not the case. Even a SIN discovered and flagged as fake is not guaranteed to be updated across all databases in time (or at all) (see: SR5Core, "Burned SINs")


Remember: It's all about the bottom line. Always.

Why spend the money to eliminate a runner, if they can file the info about you away for the next time they need someone competent to do a job?
Why share data, if it may have some value?

SIN, fake-SIN or non at all. It's never a question if a corporation can get enough information to identify, find and punish you. They can, given they invest enough ressources. They could even do it much easier if they would actually share information. But they won't if it isn't cost-efficient.

That's one of the basics of the setting since day one.
« Last Edit: (21:05:16/02-24-19) by RiggerBob »

Reaver

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« Reply #67 on: (22:00:09/02-24-19) »
Let me put it another way.  The local gang trashes the Stuffer Shack and
...
But then how do the rich people get their beef jerky, potato chips and gas masks in one convenient stop?
Well, they get their beef jerky from that delicatessen that charges them $19.95 a gram.

The rich don't eat "soy-chips"... They have their robo-butler make them REAL potato chips from REAL potatoes at a cost of $4.95 a potatoe.

The Rich don't wear "gas masks", those clash with everything that is not "Garbage Bin Punk". They do however buy rebreathers from Zoe-Armani at $5000 a pop. Of which they will have several to match their outfits and styles. And they will be custom designed for that "unique" look that every "I have more money than brains" always must have.


Oh, and one stop shopping is for plebs. Obviously. As they are too busy doing pleb things to enjoy the real things in life like shopping.
And now back to my goose pate while trying on 20 karat gold baby toe rings..   
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RiggerBob

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« Reply #68 on: (23:07:52/02-24-19) »
They have their robo-butler make them REAL potato chips from REAL potatoes at a cost of $4.95 a potatoe.
Robo-butlers went out of style years ago... if you have the money, you pay human servants  ;D

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #69 on: (01:09:59/02-25-19) »
The Rich don't wear "gas masks", those clash with everything that is not "Garbage Bin Punk". They do however buy rebreathers from Zoe-Armani at $5000 a pop. Of which they will have several to match their outfits and styles. And they will be custom designed for that "unique" look that every "I have more money than brains" always must have.
Fashion Gas Masks are only 300 bucks, and a fashion respirator rating 6 only 450. My Transporter character wore one alongside his suit.
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Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #70 on: (08:03:48/02-25-19) »
Put both in your Custom Ballistic Masks, and that'll get you into some certain esoteric dinner parties...
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Reaver

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« Reply #71 on: (12:33:51/02-25-19) »
The Rich don't wear "gas masks", those clash with everything that is not "Garbage Bin Punk". They do however buy rebreathers from Zoe-Armani at $5000 a pop. Of which they will have several to match their outfits and styles. And they will be custom designed for that "unique" look that every "I have more money than brains" always must have.
Fashion Gas Masks are only 300 bucks, and a fashion respirator rating 6 only 450. My Transporter character wore one alongside his suit.


You're forgetting the "you're too rich for brains" sur-charge....


Case in point: the $25,000 Iphone 6.... (gold leaf outcase).
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #72 on: (13:01:02/02-25-19) »
Ah yes, the 'one born every minute' force-multiplier.
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neomerlin

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« Reply #73 on: (18:04:18/03-01-19) »
I've frequently seen this line of thinking that you can't so much as buy Amber Gel from the Stuffer Shack without a SIN. If you want to run your game that way, okay, but I've never seen the value in it. The game rolls up your basic purchases of food and clothing and hot water into Lifestyle costs because even the designers didn't think it'd be fun to make dwell on those details. For everything else, I basically go on how the world works today. I need to show ID to buy alcohol, so that's a SIN check if my players do that, but not a significant one. Buying a car? Yes and a more significant SIN check than getting alcohol. For some reason, I put more thought into banking. If a player has a high rated fake SIN or a real SIN, they can get a real bank account and as long as they pay their taxes and don't do anything to attract an audit, I'm happy for the bank not to ask questions (because, for realz, banks in the real world are happy to turn a blind eye so long as you pay their fees and have lots of money). Or we can say money laundering is part of your lifestyle costs. For everyone else, you can keep it on cred sticks in your mattress or find a Yak run bank and it works out just as good. Really, for my game, I try to balance what highlights the interesting and oppressive details of the setting with what is fun for the game.

That said, I love your idea, CanRay, of using UCAS$ as a physical and less traceable currency to pay runners. That works in a way I've never felt Corp Scrip would be appealing to runners who know what they're doing. What black market arms dealer is going to take Aztech scrip?

As to that other question of how much the Matrix comes up in my game. Every session. Matrix Searching and Matrix Perception are in constant use by deckers and riggers and since I usually have a decker, there's plenty of decking going on during the run and during the legwork. Most of my players lean towards White Hat in most respects, so when they need info, they much prefer the decker to steal it off (or through) a commlink than interrogate for it. They also like to be quiet... Whenever possible... Which isn't as often as they'd like... But, yeah, it's a weird session if the Matrix doesn't come up at all. Even if the matrix focused characters aren't attending that session, the players will call on friends and Contacts to assist.

Fast Freddy

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« Reply #74 on: (09:12:41/03-04-19) »
got to agree with a lot of the posts - deckkers take up a one to one isolated session for them to do stuff in the matrix - a solution could be to hire one in who will do their dekker thang remotely from the safety of the hotel room via some device the player runners cart around with them