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How much do you use the matrix in your games ?

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #45 on: (13:12:37/02-19-19) »
There's a reason ejecting clips is an all-time favourite: Iirc (it's been a while) it's a Free Action to command, allowing it in the same turn as the mark.
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CanRay

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« Reply #46 on: (13:32:25/02-19-19) »
There's a reason ejecting clips is an all-time favourite: Iirc (it's been a while) it's a Free Action to command, allowing it in the same turn as the mark.
Just remember to jack the round out of the chamber at the same time.   ;D
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Reaver

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« Reply #47 on: (15:18:40/02-19-19) »
There's a reason ejecting clips is an all-time favourite: Iirc (it's been a while) it's a Free Action to command, allowing it in the same turn as the mark.
Just remember to jack the round out of the chamber at the same time.   ;D

Everyone forgets the one in the chamber...
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #48 on: (16:06:19/02-19-19) »
Yeah, heh.

Of course if you try to brick a gun, you need to one-shot it because once it starts taking matrix damage all it takes is a free action to shut the wireless off, and matrix damage doesn't impose any penalties (until the entire CM is blocked out).

Honestly I wish turning wireless off wasn't a thing the rules allowed, but then again I've got a soft spot for Deckers :D
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

kainite311

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« Reply #49 on: (19:11:11/02-19-19) »
Yeah, heh.

Of course if you try to brick a gun, you need to one-shot it because once it starts taking matrix damage all it takes is a free action to shut the wireless off, and matrix damage doesn't impose any penalties (until the entire CM is blocked out).

Honestly I wish turning wireless off wasn't a thing the rules allowed, but then again I've got a soft spot for Deckers :D

Isn't there a way to link lock a device like a persona? (or maybe use squelch, modified? or jamming? Most wireless switching on/off is done via wireless commands, the irony they can't turn off the wireless because the signal is blocked... who but a rigger or decker has more then 2 pts of noise reduction) and how long until they figure out why? 1 action wasted when it doesn't work right away and another observe in detail to try to figure out why, and another action to correct it... wasted maybe 2 passes (or about one combat turn for most. and you just do it again next pass...) Never underestimate tying up someone's actions for a pass or 2 while the rest of your team whittles them down...

Why not do other things instead? (action economy is still there, but with reckless hacking and a few other tricks can be done)
format/reboot pretty much will brick it right? (action economy is still there, but with reckless hacking and a few other tricks can be done)
Spoof command to: eject all ammo, engage safety, disengage electronic firing... or any other creative use)
Feed the smartlink corrupt data via edit? (neg to hit equal to net hits....)
just to name a few...

Are they as fast as the power combat mage/street sam/adept? maybe not...but they also don't require you to show any part of yourself so no worries about dodging bullets... also can be done thru walls/floors. Can be predone before they even reach combat range...

The reading I got from the core book was electronics were pervasive on all weapons unless throwback... (Think Ipad on modern day refrigerators... Heck, anything with an auto set clock essentially has a wireless connection to get the universal time/date)
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Overbyte

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« Reply #50 on: (04:28:34/02-20-19) »
Anyhow, thanks to the caseless ammo, it could be argued that the current firearms use a electronic spark to fire the round instead of a percussion explosion now, and that is the very thing that gets "bricked" when the gun is bricked... you can pull that trigger all day long, but no spark, no ingition of the propellant, no shooty stuff.

Don't want to be argumentative, but it seems that your electronic spark theory is specifically NOT the case since on p.180 of Hard Targets there is a weapon modification called "Electronic Firing":

With this modification, most of the weaponís moving parts are removed so that it can fire electronically, meaning that an electrical signal detonates the bulletís propellant.
Nothing is foolproof. Fools are so ingenious.

Spooky

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« Reply #51 on: (18:17:14/02-21-19) »
Alright, I accept that practically every gun should be brickable according to the rules. So how does this work out in practice? Have any of you had deckers try to brick everything? How did that work out?

I imagine during a spontaneous shoot-out, the decker won't be fast enough to do more damage decking than if they were shooting, but during a stand-off, the decker might be quietly hacking into the opposition's guns without them noticing. Bricking them will draw attention, but as long as they're just collecting marks and only start bricking stuff when the situation heats up, the decker could short-circuit the whole situation. Is that cool or will the decker deny the other runners their opportunity to shine?

Well, if you have an inventive decker/techno, they don't need to brick a gun right away... Example 1: I had the team traveling on the freeway away from the job in their party van (a Roadmaster), and a go-gang jumped them. Foour hot-shot cycles gave chase, each double mounted. Each cycle had a driver and a shooter. Team gunners shoot at the two on the left, and the matrixers took the two on the right. First thing they did: get into the gun wielded by the outside shooter, and reset the zero point. If you know guns, you can imagine the results. For those of you who don't resetting the zero point means the gun hits to the left or right or up or down from the point of aim. Decker resets the zero such that when the shooter  fires at the van, he hits the inside cycle driver's head instead of the van. Splat one cycle.... and reset the zero again to splat his driver next.... You can see where this goes, all with out bricking the gun. Example 2: well, Example 1 is probably enough to give you ideas, really. So enjoy.
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #52 on: (18:11:49/02-23-19) »
The reading I got from the core book was electronics were pervasive on all weapons unless throwback...

Unfortunately, this isn't true.  Electronics are pervasive in all items.


Quote from: Core Book, 2nd Printing, page 421, under "Throwbacks"
While throwbacks are immune to hacking via the wireless Matrix, all devices have a universal access port.
All being a throwback does for it is turn off wireless permanently.

I really wish there were three tiers of items.
  • Standard: These are the "normal" items.  They have some form of wireless functionality from the bare bones Advertisement ARO that your clothes give off, up to full Matrix interaction with comms or decks.
  • Lobos (short for Lobotomies):  These are what are currently Throwbacks.  They still have electronics, but no wireless so they aren't "smart"
  • Throwbacks:  These are the true mechanical only items.  There would be very few of them because so much must be broadcast to blend in with technosociety seemlesly

Until such a time, all items can be hacked - even bricked, even if there isn't a whole lot of mechanical benefit.  I'm not sure who the madman is that put electronics into an actual 1860's firearm, but even it can be bricked via direct connection.

--------------------------------

As for how much I use the Matrix in my games...

I want to use it all the time.  I am a technophile at heart, and would love to use it all the time.
Unfortunately, the 5e Matrix rules are such a fusterclucking hot mess they get in the way of the game.

Since SINs are required to be broadcast at all times, it is nearly impossible for a Shadowrunner to even enter a non-public area in a building.
  • If the internal sensors detect someone without a SIN?  Alert security.
  • You have a Fake SIN?  Does it fail a verification check?  Alert security, and they come out guns blazing because there is zero legitimate reason for a Fake SIN to be in a non-public area.  (Public areas have a bit more leeway because there is too much chance for collateral damage that can't be easily covered up)
  • You have a Fake SIN and it passes a verification check?  Too bad.  SINs = IDs, and it is stupid simple to check if the Fake SIN is authorized to be in the area.  Alert security.

We know that SIN scanners are everywhere because you need a Fake SIN just so you can hit up the Stuffer Shack without them calling the authorities on you for being a vagrant.
We also know that you can't duplicate someone elses SIN, in part because their SIN will be in use wherever they are.
So, if you follow the world as written, Shadowrunners can't even infiltrate a building without the tech alerting security.

Then there is the whole thing that there aren't any passwords/passcodes/access codes anymore because that is what your Persona is for.
And thanks to Kill Code, we know that a Persona can not be faked, forged, or hacked.  The best that can be done is Masquerade as another persona. (Kill Code, page 39)  This is not a simple thing to pull off.  You need 4 MARKs (two on the Persona you are trying to imitate, as well as two on the icon/device you are trying to manipulate) and that means the Overwatch Score timeclock is ticking.  If you or your target Persona logs off, your done.

Then, of course, that doesn't take into account that Personas are made of - among many other things - "usage patterns."  That means it is easy to imagine that if you don't operate the icon/device you are manipulating in the same way as the person your imitating it could trip security.
A bad analogy would be think of typing speed.  If you don't type at the same speed as the person you are imitating, the system can detect something is wrong and trip security.
What this does is anyones guess, but I imagine at the least it would be a re-verification of identity.  Kind of like "security questions."

For a game that is supposed to revolve around stealth to some degree, the tech and magic make all of it nearly impossible.

And before anyone wants to respond with something along the lines of "no [sane] GM would run the game like that," let me stop you before you start.
If your only counterpoint is that "no GM would run the game as it is written," then that is a prime example of how crappy the rules are and how much they desperately need a rewrite.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #53 on: (18:32:57/02-23-19) »
Well, I'm thinking you're overstating Big Brother somewhat.  Granted it's a thing, but not to the extent of being SINless/A Shadowrunner is impossible.  Challenging, yes.  That's the point.  But not impossible.

Remember Certified Credsticks are a thing.  They work like cash.  Stuffer Shack will certainly accept it.  They'll only check your SIN if you try to use non-certified nuyen. (if credsticks are analogous to cash, everything else is analogous to credit cards)

Likewise those "identity scanners" aren't necessarily reading your broadcasted SIN.  It's far more probable they're reading your Persona, since that's where your shopping and matrix browsing habits are encoded.  Since everyone who's not Amish is using AR constantly, your Persona is constantly viewable.  Unless you go wireless off/run silent, of course.  And honestly that's probably the go-to excuse everyone uses if some curious guards start asking "Why aren't you publicly broadcasting your Persona?":  "Because I don't want Spam!"
« Last Edit: (18:38:33/02-23-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #54 on: (20:56:09/02-23-19) »
I'm thinking you're underestimating the oppressive prejudice against the "undesirables."

I mean, can you come up with a reasonable explanation for why the local Stuffer Shack (not to mention the more paranoid corps) wouldn't have a low rating, door mounted SIN checker to make sure all customers are legal?
If only to keep insurance premiums down...

And, of course, they likely have a Host equivalent of an Agent running Matrix Perception looking for shirt and shoe ARO's...  Oh, and pants.  Definitely pants.

John Doe walks into the Stuffer Shack with his throwback clothing.  A big red circle with a line through it ARO immediately covers him blocking out what he looks like "underneath" it.
"Valued customer.  We have detected you are not wearing a shirt, or shoes and regret to inform you that you will not be served until you return properly attired."

Of course, it should be trivially easy to talk your way out of those things at the Shack (especially if you have a Contact there).  Once you step into the Restricted (or higher security) area of a corp building, easy goes out the window.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #55 on: (21:00:21/02-23-19) »
I mean, can you come up with a reasonable explanation for why the local Stuffer Shack (not to mention the more paranoid corps) wouldn't have a low rating, door mounted SIN checker to make sure all customers are legal?
Because their money is as good as anyone else's, simple as that.

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And, of course, they likely have a Host equivalent of an Agent running Matrix Perception looking for shirt and shoe ARO's...  Oh, and pants.  Definitely pants.
Anyone who walks into a Stuffer Shack wearing AROs.....in fact, anyone who wears AROs outside of fashion shows and high society.....deserves to have the shit beat out of them, and the local gangers will typically do the job.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #56 on: (21:52:23/02-23-19) »
...
I mean, can you come up with a reasonable explanation for why the local Stuffer Shack (not to mention the more paranoid corps) wouldn't have a low rating, door mounted SIN checker to make sure all customers are legal?
...

While the SINless don't have human rights in many jurisdictions of the Sixth world, they DO still have spendable nuyen.  May as well relieve the SINless of it whenever you can.

Now of course Michelin star restaurants won't be accepting the SINless in, but neither will they be welcoming in the hobos of the real world.

Quote
And, of course, they likely have a Host equivalent of an Agent running Matrix Perception looking for shirt and shoe ARO's...  Oh, and pants.  Definitely pants.

John Doe walks into the Stuffer Shack with his throwback clothing.  A big red circle with a line through it ARO immediately covers him blocking out what he looks like "underneath" it.
"Valued customer.  We have detected you are not wearing a shirt, or shoes and regret to inform you that you will not be served until you return properly attired."

Some places, sure.  Perhaps even "many" places.  I wouldn't count places like Stuffer Shacks among them.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #57 on: (22:09:10/02-23-19) »
Because their money is as good as anyone else's, simple as that.

While the SINless don't have human rights in many jurisdictions of the Sixth world, they DO still have spendable nuyen.  May as well relieve the SINless of it whenever you can.


So what?

I can point to current events in the US right now that imitates what Corporate rule would look like in the 2070+'s
Just imagine SINless every time "Undocumented Immigrant" comes up.
There are even studies that show that undocumented immigrants (as a whole) are vibrant, productive, members of society. At least usually.  And more usually than natural born citizens.

I could go even further into it, although I will likely be accused of bringing politics into the forums.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #58 on: (22:11:10/02-23-19) »
So what?

I can point to current events in the US right now that imitates what Corporate rule would look like in the 2070+'s
Just imagine SINless every time "Undocumented Immigrant" comes up.
Undocumented immigrant walks into a convenience stores, buys completely legal items, pays with cash, and the cashier never raises a fuss.

I don't see your point.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #59 on: (22:20:40/02-23-19) »
I don't see your point.

Because you are deliberately not looking.

We don't have the requirement, yet, to electronically broadcast the equivalent of a green card.

But hey, you do you.