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Sustained spell preps?

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Chalkarts

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« on: <01-17-19/1002:09> »
Sustained spells last until you stop sustaining them.
What about preparations?
They don't require concentration to sustain so how long do their effects last?
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <01-17-19/1114:55> »
Since Potency fades 1 point per hour prior to the spell being triggered, it stands to reason it still fades after the spell is being discharged.

If nothing else, a sustained spell preparation shouldn't last longer than a number of hours equal to the potency it had when triggered.


Edit: I shoulda looked it up before voicing opinion.

Quote from: SR5 pg 306
If the
spell is sustained, it lasts for (Potency) minutes (or in
the case of a permanent spell until it becomes permanent).
« Last Edit: <01-17-19/1116:40> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Chalkarts

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« Reply #2 on: <01-17-19/1135:38> »
Ahh, ok,
I didn't see it in the SRcore.
So a sustained force 5 prep will last for 5 minutes.
Good to know.
I can make that work.
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« Reply #3 on: <01-17-19/1213:20> »
Notably this means that, in general, using a preparation to boost your drain stats while you make more preparations only works in some niche cases (need potency equal or higher than the force of the next preparation you are making, since it takes (force) minutes to make a preparation).

It also tends not to make them the most useful for surveillance or travel, but the duration is an order of magnitude or more than the duration of the average combat at least.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: <01-17-19/1227:00> »
Ahh, ok,
I didn't see it in the SRcore.
So a sustained force 5 prep will last for 5 minutes.
Good to know.
I can make that work.

It's not based on force.  A force 5 prep with 1 potency will last for 1 minute.  Force 5 with 10 potency will last for 10 minutes.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Chalkarts

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« Reply #5 on: <01-17-19/1309:58> »

It's not based on force.  A force 5 prep with 1 potency will last for 1 minute.  Force 5 with 10 potency will last for 10 minutes.


Ah, I misread.

I hate to ask such a basic question but how do I increase Potency?

I'm still learning the magic system, my last character was all cyber so I didnt bother much with the magic end of things.
I have just fallen in love with the concept of a Preparations Buffer.

I could make a bunch of command word healing preparations in the form of Ski Masks or Bandanas for the team to wear on the run, it hides their faces while being visible enough that as long as I have LoS i can trigger it.
If I were annoyed with the group I could put an Intuition boost in a clown wig and make them wear it into the firefight.
I paint the pavement.  It's what I do.  Check it out on Instagram, @Chalkarts

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #6 on: <01-17-19/1337:26> »
Pg 305: Step 5: Create the Preparation

Quote
After the time elapses for creation of the preparation,
make an Alchemy + Magic [Force] Test opposed by the
Force of the preparation. The net hits from this test become
the preparation’s Potency.

Note that when you trigger the preparation, Potency is rolled at the moment the spell is finally "cast" in place of the alchemist's spellcasting skill. (see using a preparation, pgs 305-306).

That illustrates a fundamental weakness in preparations vs cast spells:  with directly cast spells it's net hits directly determine the spell's effect.  With preparations, net hits generate potency which THEN are rolled to determine the spell's net hits.  In other words: your spellcasting hits are then rolled to get final hits with preparations.

Combat spells are a poor choice for preparations for this reason, but anything you can get away with having low Force is great as you'll score lots of Potency.
« Last Edit: <01-17-19/1355:07> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

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« Reply #7 on: <01-17-19/1355:54> »
I think I mentioned it above, the math for expected hits is:
Normal spell: 1/3 spellcasting dice pool
spell from a preparation: 1/9 alchemy dice pool + 2/9 spell force (so if you don't need a long life on the preparation (shelf life or sustained time), you want to go for as high a force as you can a) beat with your alchemy, and b) handle the drain for.
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Chalkarts

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« Reply #8 on: <01-18-19/1149:38> »
The character has multiple Vaults of the Ages so shelf life isn't a concern(unless the gm blows up his house and van).
He can make them in downtime and store them for the runs. Even if they only last 5 minutes once activated, the shelf life will last easily through a run.  If they aren't activated on the run they can go back in the vaults for later with an hour or two ticked off their shelf life.

I've tinkered with the math and gotten some help in another thread to get my dice pool up to 18-20ish for creating the preps.
I'm going to have to go back over the rules to figure out exactly what that means for potency, lol.

As for the drain, aside from making them in downtime, he's a quick healer and in time will have the centering thing from initiation(I hope) so I'm less concerned with the drain as much as I am with making them as strong as possible for later use.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #9 on: <01-18-19/1217:24> »
You'll roll your dice against twice the force of the preparation you're creating.  So in the case of F6, you'd roll 18 vs 12 dice, with net hits being the Potency.

When triggered, the preparation rolls Potency + Force (with a limit of Force) to determine the spell's effect.

So a P2 F6 preparation rolls 8 dice, and a P6 F2 preparation also rolls 8 dice, but their limits are different so obviously the higher force is worth it if you can get away with it.

OTOH while high Potency doesn't help you with the limit, it does help you with shelf life and duration.  And it's the easier value to pump up... you mathematically get a slightly better than 1:1 return by lowering Force! Also, one of the key advantages of preparing the spells ahead of time is you can blow resources like edge during downtime and then potentially recoup them before the next mission.
« Last Edit: <01-18-19/1221:23> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Chalkarts

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« Reply #10 on: <01-18-19/1537:56> »
OTOH while high Potency doesn't help you with the limit, it does help you with shelf life and duration.  And it's the easier value to pump up... you mathematically get a slightly better than 1:1 return by lowering Force! Also, one of the key advantages of preparing the spells ahead of time is you can blow resources like edge during downtime and then potentially recoup them before the next mission.

I wouldn't mind making force 5 preps just to make it easier.
My biggest reason for leaning toward preparations is I liked the idea of pseudomagic items, I love playing support characters and since I could pop multiple sustained spells with preps to buff the party it sounded really useful.

I also plan to use the leadership skill often.
A Dwarven Ganger hanging in the back calling out orders, activating preparations, and laying down cover fire sounds like fun.

Especially if there is a tweaked out Street Sam raging around covered in my buffs.
I paint the pavement.  It's what I do.  Check it out on Instagram, @Chalkarts

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #11 on: <01-18-19/1621:52> »
Yeah, the limit of 6 on a force 6 spell is wasted unless you've also somehow scored the 12 potency necessary to generate a P + F pool likely to hit 6 hits anyway.

Of course since the limit on the Alchemy test is the Force of the preparation, you're not going to be able to score a lot of potency in the first place unless you throw edge and/or reagents at the limit... if you don't you may as well go for max Force.

Edited in light of misreading the opposition dice pool in quoted rule upthread.
« Last Edit: <01-19-19/0925:41> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

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« Reply #12 on: <01-18-19/1644:03> »
One little trick is to buy the dedicated work space option on your lifestyle, to give you a +2 limit on the alchemy that you do in there, letting you run up higher potency on low force preparations  Combine that with a vault of ages for some storage and you can save up some pretty optimized preparations (if a home type of game.  In missions I'm not sure how they would handle that).
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: <01-18-19/1651:14> »
One little trick is to buy the dedicated work space option on your lifestyle, to give you a +2 limit on the alchemy that you do in there, letting you run up higher potency on low force preparations  Combine that with a vault of ages for some storage and you can save up some pretty optimized preparations (if a home type of game.  In missions I'm not sure how they would handle that).

I was just thinking about that myself.  In SRM anything done during downtime is required to be done via buying hits, which makes preparations exceptionally unattractive.  However the same is true of binding spirits, and I know for sure there's an exception to the "buying hits" rule for that.  Alchemy might as well, and if not could probably stand a test of reasonableness based on the binding spirit precedent.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

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« Reply #14 on: <01-18-19/1706:08> »
If nothing else, have a list of preparation you want to make, and as soon as your character gets the call from their fixer have them make up some preparations?
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