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Transportation for Characters without a vehicle

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Fatespinner

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« on: (03:52:18/01-10-19) »
Hi all,

how do all your Squatter und Low Lifestype characters get to bars, run locations or meetings with a Johnson? Sometimes you can ask your Rigger to pick you up, but depending on your location and the size of the Sprawl, it might be no option.

I was thinking about using a spirit with the movement power for my shaman? Would that work?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #1 on: (03:57:15/01-10-19) »
Public transport, or rent a cab.

Under RAW, a Spirit can only use Movement on others within their own Domain. Since Domains aren't defined and a normal summoned spirit wouldn't really have one anyway (Free Spirits sure, and maybe one can argue aspected background counts apply), they can't boost/penalize others.
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Fatespinner

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« Reply #2 on: (04:06:37/01-10-19) »
A summoned spirit doesn't have a domain? I was always under the impression that they have one. So the domain for a spirit of man would be a house or city.

A cab is a good idea. Public transportation can sometimes be difficult, but it is of course cheaper.

A bike would take to long and would be unstylish.

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #3 on: (04:44:33/01-10-19) »
This particular topic primarily only affects starting runners, the ones that don't prioritize getting a vehicle with their starting funds. It can actually be quite fun to talk about how everyone gets to their first run. I had one player wind up having a running joke about how he would leave super early to get to a run because he had to take the bus.

Now, a magician using a spirit to move around extra quickly would be problematic in multiple ways. For one, it would be extremely obvious and grab way more attention than you probably want to be getting on your way to a mission. In addition, the Movement power only makes you move faster, not more efficiently, safely, or without exertion. It wouldn't help you run longer, you would still be winded after just as much time, you would have just moved about six times farther. It also doesn't help you avoid tripping or avoid injury, and you can imagine how much face-planting at six-times speed would hurt.

As far as the spirit "domain" issue goes, the mention of a domain is primarily a hold-over from previous editions. And even still, it is not referring to a sense of ownership over a specific space. It would be much more accurate to attribute the limitation the Fatespinner suggested. A Spirit of Man can only apply movement in urban areas, a spirit of earth, only while touching the ground, water in water, and air in air (I would primarily apply this as while not in a confined space, such as underground).

Marcus

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« Reply #4 on: (04:48:30/01-10-19) »
We had a character in one game who began every run with trying to sneak out of his parent's house. It was always an amusing little opening vignette.

Public transport is the official answer, life style cost discuss a bus pass, or train pass.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #5 on: (05:06:13/01-10-19) »
This particular topic primarily only affects starting runners, the ones that don't prioritize getting a vehicle with their starting funds. It can actually be quite fun to talk about how everyone gets to their first run. I had one player wind up having a running joke about how he would leave super early to get to a run because he had to take the bus.

Now, a magician using a spirit to move around extra quickly would be problematic in multiple ways. For one, it would be extremely obvious and grab way more attention than you probably want to be getting on your way to a mission. In addition, the Movement power only makes you move faster, not more efficiently, safely, or without exertion. It wouldn't help you run longer, you would still be winded after just as much time, you would have just moved about six times farther. It also doesn't help you avoid tripping or avoid injury, and you can imagine how much face-planting at six-times speed would hurt.

As far as the spirit "domain" issue goes, the mention of a domain is primarily a hold-over from previous editions. And even still, it is not referring to a sense of ownership over a specific space. It would be much more accurate to attribute the limitation the Fatespinner suggested. A Spirit of Man can only apply movement in urban areas, a spirit of earth, only while touching the ground, water in water, and air in air (I would primarily apply this as while not in a confined space, such as underground).
The problem with that logic is that it makes spirit-terrorism way too easy, since any Spirit of Air would be able to look at planes and make them crash (especially since the description of Movement on Vehicles dates from 3e, which had way different rules for vehicle speed). And what would be the domain of a Guardian Spirit? Plus Movement is horribly overpowered if it's allowed to be used freely*, so restricting it to aspected makes more sense than allowing it to be used as long as you are 'in the city', 'in the open air', 'on a battlefield', etc.

*: In my campaign I had both a movement-rate percentual restriction and only allowed it when Channeling, and it was still so overpowered that the Rigger didn't feel like rigging anymore since people were faster than vehicles anyway.

tl;dr: Movement's description is in desperate need of significant errata, and allowing Movement to be used freely makes it way too powerful and game-breaking.
« Last Edit: (05:07:57/01-10-19) by Michael Chandra »
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Fatespinner

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« Reply #6 on: (05:21:35/01-10-19) »
This particular topic primarily only affects starting runners, the ones that don't prioritize getting a vehicle with their starting funds. It can actually be quite fun to talk about how everyone gets to their first run. I had one player wind up having a running joke about how he would leave super early to get to a run because he had to take the bus.

Now, a magician using a spirit to move around extra quickly would be problematic in multiple ways. For one, it would be extremely obvious and grab way more attention than you probably want to be getting on your way to a mission. In addition, the Movement power only makes you move faster, not more efficiently, safely, or without exertion. It wouldn't help you run longer, you would still be winded after just as much time, you would have just moved about six times farther. It also doesn't help you avoid tripping or avoid injury, and you can imagine how much face-planting at six-times speed would hurt.

Well that is true. But the mage in question is a troll mage. Maybe a Skateboard (with movement power, but not super faster) and using streets would be a more sensible way to go. Avoiding crashes would be the biggest problem, but if the spirit also has the guard power it might be much more safe.

Fatespinner

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« Reply #7 on: (05:22:20/01-10-19) »
We had a character in one game who began every run with trying to sneak out of his parent's house. It was always an amusing little opening vignette.

That is really cool. Something that I might steal for a future character.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #8 on: (09:40:52/01-10-19) »
This is borderline "needs a new thread" stuff, but the Movement critter power has always bugged me.  I routinely see SRM players summoning a big F9 Spirit of Man to give them a 100+MPH walking speed 'anywhere in the Sprawl', rendering vehicles basically irrelevant.  In the SR5 core rulebook it does call out that a critter can only use the Movement power inside its domain/terrain.  In earlier editions the concept of a Spirit's Domain was defined, but it isn't so in 5th.

However Street Grimoire DOES define domain: It's an area of aspected mana that is that way due to an emotional or psychological significance.  In other words, Domains are a kind of Background Count.

Limiting the Movement critter power to work only in BGC's aspected towards the spirit is a great way to instill some reasonableness as you might be able to walk in excess of 100mph, you won't be able to go FAR doing so because the domain can reasonably only be so big.

OTOH, the Movement critter power language in SR5 uses "domain/terrain" rather than simply domain. What sort of guidelines are there for terrain?  Can one summon a Spirit of Man and say the whole sprawl (in effect, the entire shadowrun 9 times out of 10) is his terrain if not domain?  Is it being a dick of a GM to say that a given Spirit of Man's terrain is just the streets and only the streets (or maybe even only certain streets)?  And another's is just a given neighborhood?  And another's is just this one campus or mall? etc... 

What I've been doing in practice is just denying that they're able to hit the raw speeds the math says they can hit by maxing out buffs and multipliers.  I keep vehicles relevant by expanding the tidbit in R5 that says any Winged movement speed is faster than any Rotor movement speed, which in turn is faster than any Ground movement speed, and etc.  So I say that any vehicle or drone is flatly automatically faster than any possible "augmented" walk speed, however much or little mathematical sense that makes.  Of course it'd only really matter in a chase, as being able to walk impossibly fast still more or less renders vehicles moot from a transportation point of view...
« Last Edit: (09:55:57/01-10-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

Sphinx

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« Reply #9 on: (09:56:57/01-10-19) »
I played a street shaman for a while who'd use the Shapechange spell to get around the sprawl as a bird when teammates weren't available to give him rides. Of course, there was the "no clothing or gear" problem, but he had Physical Mask and Personal Warmth spells to cover that angle.

Hackers should be able to arrange free rides in autocabs, anywhere GridGuide goes. You just need to beat a rating 2 or 3 Pilot program, and keep an eye on your Overwatch Score.

Lifestyle expenses (Low or better) would probably cover a bus pass or rail pass.

As a last resort, feet work fine when you're not in a hurry. You can cover a lot of ground in a few hours; and a lot more with a spirit's Movement power.

Fatespinner

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« Reply #10 on: (10:08:46/01-10-19) »
Hackers should be able to arrange free rides in autocabs, anywhere GridGuide goes. You just need to beat a rating 2 or 3 Pilot program, and keep an eye on your Overwatch Score.

Lifestyle expenses (Low or better) would probably cover a bus pass or rail pass.

As a last resort, feet work fine when you're not in a hurry. You can cover a lot of ground in a few hours; and a lot more with a spirit's Movement power.

This is really good advice. A hacker connection might be used to give you a free ride. Service trading is a common thing in the shadows and so this really fits the theme well.

It is sad that the movement power is so often misused. But normally traveling fast without some other protection would require some difficult skill tests. Plus this option is only available for mages that can summon spirits. So if you want to move equipment, go unnoticed, go safe or in bad weather, then you still need regular transportation. I can see that this power can reduce some fun, but I guess that it is often used to bypass boring traveling scenes. It is no game breaker or?

Reaver

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« Reply #11 on: (14:00:07/01-10-19) »
OTOH, the Movement critter power language in SR5 uses "domain/terrain" rather than simply domain. What sort of guidelines are there for terrain?  Can one summon a Spirit of Man and say the whole sprawl (in effect, the entire shadowrun 9 times out of 10) is his terrain if not domain? 

Well, if you want to go back and look at the evolution of Spirits in SR, then a Spirit of Man is just a hearth spirit from the early editions. That would make a Spirit of Man's Domain to be the interior spaces of buildings...



But yea, there is a host of issues with the movement power, that much is clear.


But i think we have touched on a more serious issue that either isn't covered enough, or has just been glossed over for what ever reason.

And that issue is:

IN THE UCAS AND THE CAS, MAGIC IS REGULATED, LICENSED, AND CONTROLLED!

Seriously, they really haven't done a good job of stressing just how badly all this is regulated in Shadowrun...

I think in all of 5e I may have seen a single paragraph on this topic in SG..
In all of 4e you got about 1/2 page on the topic (SM, page 13/14)
In 3e, you got a full page in MitS (page 11) and several other blurbs in other books.
In 2e, you had legal write ups for magic in several books (Neo A, and others.. Awakenings was surprisingly empty on the topic however)


The Basic gist was:

Walking while Awakened, while technically not a crime, gets you eyebrows if noticed and NOT registered.

EVERY mage who wants to cast any spell, (ANY. SPELL. FULL STOP) summon any spirit (ANY. SPIRIT. FULL STOP, again), or use a spirit ability, MUST be a registered, and licensed mage, with a permit to cast or summon said spirit.

Mages who use a spell in the commission of a crime is considered a "Premeditated Act" Meaning usually extra long, extra harsh sentences.
Mages are fully responsible for all actions a summoned spirit commits, EVEN IF ITS NOT UNDER HIS CONTROL! So a spirit breaks free from you, and burns down that apartment block... Premeditated Arson, And Multiple Premeditated Homicide charges. 

When a mage is encountered on the street, even for random questioning, they are treated as threatening, Armed, and Dangerous. (so expect a gun pointed at you even while just handing over your ID).


So your mage, using a spirit with the movement power could be up a seriously powerful creek without a paddle...
Does he have an Awakened SIN (legal or fake?)? Does he have permits for that summons? And that power usage? How far is he really moving when he is getting Astrally buzzed by KE patrols demanding he stop and wait for a physical unit to come by and check his ID.


(The 2e security and world books did a much better job of describing just how prevalent magic security was, where is was most encountered, how the police handled magic, and magic threats..)



We could really use and updated Laws, Lifestyle, and Lay of the Land  book.  (Hint hint writers :D)




« Last Edit: (14:05:31/01-10-19) by Reaver »
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Beta

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« Reply #12 on: (15:12:47/01-10-19) »
I mostly want to second everything that Reaver just wrote, but also quibble with one point:  I think Spirit of Man pulls together both Hearth Spirits and City Spirits.  (And having played an (urban) racoon shaman back in first edition, I remember well the issues created by losing your spirit every time you went in and out of a building, and how I always preferred to deal with issues on the streets because of the bonus for calling City Spirits.)
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: (16:03:29/01-10-19) »
With regards to legality of magic (and using spirits instead of vehicles)... the Neo-Tokyo setting in SRM has a fun suggestion representing the "Big Brother" police presence: an opposed Edge vs Force roll.  If the magician doesn't win versus the force of the spell/spirit he's using, the Po-po show up to investigate the magical "disturbance". Check SINs/Licences... and then there's no reason the cops can't just follow the suspicious shadowrunner around even if the fakes pass muster.  It'd be pretty awkward to show up to the meet with Mr. Johnson with the police following you.

Grizzly

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« Reply #14 on: (16:49:03/01-10-19) »
OTOH, the Movement critter power language in SR5 uses "domain/terrain" rather than simply domain. What sort of guidelines are there for terrain?  Can one summon a Spirit of Man and say the whole sprawl (in effect, the entire shadowrun 9 times out of 10) is his terrain if not domain?  Is it being a dick of a GM to say that a given Spirit of Man's terrain is just the streets and only the streets (or maybe even only certain streets)?  And another's is just a given neighborhood?  And another's is just this one campus or mall? etc... 

This is what my old GM used to do back in 1ed days, and it kind've went with the force of the spirit.  Calling up a low-level spirit got you something local, something representing the street you were on or neighborhood you were in.  Trying to tap into the spirit of the entire Sprawl would be a major feat facing down a seriously high-force spirit (and given that it's the Sprawl you're calling on, with a pretty mean-ass attitude to boot).