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Some Rigging question

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #15 on: (18:55:31/02-12-19) »

It's funny how you keep talking about this like the police are A) capable of seeing whether or not your vehicle is on Gridguide and B) constantly looking for vehicles that aren't on Gridguide.

It's not a matter of being on the lookout.  It's noticing that the vehicle there can physically be seen, yet it has no corresponding icon in AR.  Remember, normal people are in AR every waking second. Traffic cops are absolutely included. So a car with no matrix presence is almost as obvious as a car running without lights on in the dark.  If a cop DOES see the car, he immediately knows something is very wrong with how it's operating (assuming, of course, that driving on gridlink is locally mandated).

If the team mage casts Improved Invisibility on your car, yet you remain on Gridguide, are you being a menace to traffic?  Hells to the frag yes you are. Being physically invisible but visible on the Matrix is just the inverse of being physically visible but invisible on the Matrix.

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In any event, you're severely underestimating how important sensors are.

No, I'm disagreeing that they're relevant to what I'm saying about being cut off from the Matrix is being a menace to traffic that's relying on Gridguide. Lemme try one more time:

Yes, I agree that sensors should pick up the jaywalker or the box that fell out of the back of the truck.  That's not the point.  The point is sensors, like head/brake lights, are SUPPOSED to be in working order but aren't always.  Yes, the car that hit you because it couldn't see you and couldn't passively detect you because you're not on GridLink will also be ticketed for having faulty sensors.  But even then, the collision wouldn't have happened if you just were on Gridguide/the Matrix.  THAT's why in-universe laws will often/usually/sometimes mandate Gridguide use.

What's more: having working sensors still won't always prevent a collision with a vehicle that's refusing to use Gridguide.

Consider the example I cited.  A driver tells gridguide "I'm gonna flip a Yooie here."  Gridguide moves the nearby cars just enough to accommodate that maneuver without a collision.  Oops, except it doesn't warn you or coordinate with you, since you're not on Gridguide.  A car suddenly pulls right in front of you without warning.  Crunch.  Riggers might get away with dodging that collision, sure.  But then again maybe not.  And it's quite easy to imagine Gridlink forcing an offline driver into a crash test that mathematically can't be succeeded upon without a rigger's advantages.

It doesn't have to be someone making a sudden U turn in front of you.  You could just simply be coming up on a 4 way intersection.  Stopsigns and red lights are a thing of the past in many intersections simply because Gridguide exists.  The cars detect each other's approach on the intersection despite buildings blocking LOS/preventing sensor acquisition, and Gridguide tweaks their speeds to time their passage through the intersection, allowing both to breeze thru without having dramatically change speed or stop.  But if you're going thru and gridguide can't account for you, you can just appear in front of a car with perfectly good sensors and it still doesn't have time to not T-Bone you.

And of course, again, sensors can be faulty.  If sensors alone could be relied upon to prevent collisions, then safe driving practices would also be enough to prevent collisions and noone would ever be pulled over for broken brake lights.
« Last Edit: (19:30:00/02-12-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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PiXeL01

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« Reply #16 on: (19:22:16/02-12-19) »
After reading the entry in Rigger 5 I was wondering you whether you could select just to install the mod in the truck or baggage box as long as you keep it cut off from the drivers compartment.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #17 on: (19:26:49/02-12-19) »
After reading the entry in Rigger 5 I was wondering you whether you could select just to install the mod in the truck or baggage box as long as you keep it cut off from the drivers compartment.

Probably a best of both worlds scenario.

I can imagine installing EM shielding on something like a U-Haul trailer.  Surely there's lots of "dumb" trailers being used on the roads of 2080 with no matrix presence other than some RFID trackers and license plate AROs.  The towing vehicle could easily account for the trailer with Gridguide.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #18 on: (10:17:55/02-13-19) »
No, I'm disagreeing that they're relevant to what I'm saying about being cut off from the Matrix is being a menace to traffic that's relying on Gridguide.
And you're wrong about how Gridguide works. It is not the case that cars on Gridguide don't crash into each other because they can see each other on the matrix, and after a little digging I can actually prove this. Skyguide is described thus:
Quote from: R5 pg 126
By linking with SkyGuide, a drone can use the network’s own guidance systems to get where it needs to be. The downside is that the system takes priority over the owner’s commands, allowing the drone to be controlled by the Guide, or Riggers employed by SkyGuide, against the owner’s wishes. The upside is that SkyGuide provides both a Navigation (6) autosoft and a Maneuver (6) autosoft to any drone while it’s logged in to the network.
With that description, we can think of the Skyguide host as an RCC with control over every drone linked to it. Does an RCC allow all the drones and vehicles it controls to see each other over the Matrix? No. That's not what an RCC does. What an RCC does is take data from and give instructions to the drones and vehicles it controls; they don't crash into each other or any known obstacles because that would be impossible to do while following their given instructions. If one of the drones or vehicles controlled by an RCC encounters a sudden, unforeseen obstacle and needs to avoid it, that's a Pilot+Maneuvering check. The RCC will then be informed of the obstacle and it might give out new instructions to compensate for it, but for that first encounter with the obstacle it's entirely on the sensors and pilot of that individual drone or vehicle to avoid a crash.

Can we also think of the Gridguide host (and long as we're discussing the matter, the Harborguide host) as an RCC? Common sense says yes, but just to be sure I read the original description of Gridguide given in Rigger 3. Everything checks out: the Gridguide of the 2060s takes data in and puts instructions out, self-driving autonavs follow those instructions and collisions are averted by a vehicle's sensors and autonav. It's not a perfect match, but it's definitely a system that would evolve into something you could think of as an RCC. What all this means is that Gridguide would be aware of any vehicles on the road that it doesn't control and could compensate for them. An off-grid vehicle would only be dangerous if driven incompetently and/or recklessly, so your notion that being cut off from the matrix makes you a menace to Gridguide traffic is affirming the consequent. All X may be Y, but not all Y are X.

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The point is sensors, like head/brake lights, are SUPPOSED to be in working order but aren't always.
Your argument is invalid because you're comparing an output device to an input device. Sensors aren't your brake lights in this analogy, they're your eyes and ears. As I said before, if your sensors are faulty then you are driving blind and deaf.

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Consider the example I cited.  A driver tells gridguide "I'm gonna flip a Yooie here."  Gridguide moves the nearby cars just enough to accommodate that maneuver without a collision.  Oops, except it doesn't warn you or coordinate with you, since you're not on Gridguide.
As I have already explained, Gridguide would still know that you are there and be able to compensate for your presence. In this scenario, the maneuver would be delayed until you were out of the way.

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Stopsigns and red lights are a thing of the past in many intersections simply because Gridguide exists.
Citation needed. You still need those for pedestrians, and there are some legitimate reasons to drive off-grid.

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And of course, again, sensors can be faulty.  If sensors alone could be relied upon to prevent collisions, then safe driving practices would also be enough to prevent collisions and noone would ever be pulled over for broken brake lights.
This is your argument: "Yes officer, I am completely blind and deaf, but the crash wasn't entirely my fault!"
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #19 on: (10:26:50/02-13-19) »
Let's take how Gridguide does or doesn't work to another thread.

Can we agree that for the purposes of THIS thread: turning wireless off and installing EM shielding are both options, with different pros/cons, to protect a car from being remotely hacked?

It seems like that's something you should be able to agree with me on.

Let's take arguing about the implications of one specific downside elsewhere.
« Last Edit: (10:41:13/02-13-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #20 on: (10:46:34/02-13-19) »
Let's take how Gridguide does or doesn't work to another thread.
I don't think there's anything left to discuss, but I'll start something in the gear section.

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Let's take arguing about one specific downside of not being able to easily put yourself BACK on the Matrix elsewhere.
Actually, you can still put yourself back on the matrix with a Faraday cage installed. The EM Shielding upgrade specifically states that a wire can be run through the cage during installation to allow certain systems or features to run wirelessly.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide