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Decker concept for Neo Tokyo Missions.

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kyoto kid

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« on: (18:10:13/12-26-18) »
...OK been working on a Decker character for Neo Tokyo. 

Going more for a stealth instead of combat Decker with the Like a Boss Quality, so she won't be bricking things.  This doesn't men she can't create other mischief like editing a smartlink to eject a clip when the trigger is pulled, or having a pursuing vehicle slam on the brakes. As long as it doesn't cause matrix damage she can do it.

So one question to do this I imagine she would just need to hack the device get a couple marks and edit the code for whatever system she wants to affect. Or does she need knowledge of vehicles and firearms to do so?

The one downside to make her as stealthy and effective in the Matrix as possible, she sacrifices a bit in the meat world.  Since this is Neo Tokyo, where all guns are rated "F" which means the inability to use Looper rounds as they only work in firearms (would be so nice to loop an external camera without having to climb up to attach a data cable to it).  Not having a very high Agility (and not enough skill points), Palming (which is necessary for hiding a holdout or light pistol) is out.

For initiative boost in the meat world, mainly relying on Cram rather than a permanent augmentation (decks just take way too much out of resources).  She also further augments her logic and intuition with Psyche. Both drugs are Designer grade which reduces the interaction roll by 1 (eliminating the risk of instant crash) and she has the Narco genemod which increases attribute boosts by +1.  Yeah, here she is tiptoeing on ice, but both are psychological (Logic test) only and the higher grade reduces the addiction test threshold by -1.

The main part I am struggling with (since I last played one in 3ed) is which would be the most effective programmes to use and figuring out all the Matrix actions.

The character build is still a WIP so open to suggestions.




« Last Edit: (16:47:35/12-27-18) by kyoto kid »
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kyoto kid

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« Reply #1 on: (16:47:51/12-27-18) »
OK so how does one embed a PDF in a post?  Seems when adding an attachment the only way to see it is to download, there is no "view" option and I can understand why some may be apprehensive about doing so.  In the art thread people can put images in however this is on my system at home so there is no URL to insert between the flags.

Really not into having to hand type everything out as I have severe arthritis.
« Last Edit: (23:21:01/12-27-18) by kyoto kid »
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: (09:35:42/12-28-18) »
Here's a quick copypasta:

Quote
NAME: Violet 2.0
METATYPE: Human AGE:
SEX: HEIGHT: WEIGHT:
HAIR: EYES: SKIN:
STREET CRED: 0 NOTORIETY: 2 PUBLIC AWARENESS: 0
COMPOSURE: 7 JUDGE INTENTIONS: 8 MEMORY: 14
LIFT/CARRY: 6 LIFT/CARRY WEIGHT: 45 kg / 30 kg PRIMARY ARM: Left
MOVEMENT: 8/16 (2m/hit) SWIM: 3.5 (1m/hit)
NUYEN: 20,770¥ KARMA: 8 CAREER KARMA: 0
PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES MENTAL ATTRIBUTES SPECIAL ATTRIBUTES INITIATIVE
BODY: 3 CHARISMA: 3 EDGE: 5 INITIATIVE: 8 +1D6
AGILITY: 2 (4) INTUITION: 5 CURRENT EDGE POINTS: 
REACTION: 3 LOGIC: 7 (9) ESSENCE: 1.84 RIGGER INITIATIVE: 8 +1D6
STRENGTH: 1 (3) WILLPOWER: 4   MATRIX AR: 8 +1D6
MATRIX COLD: 5 + DP +3D6
MATRIX HOT: 5 + DP +4D6
PHYSICAL LIMIT: 4 MENTAL LIMIT: 10 SOCIAL LIMIT: 4 ASTRAL LIMIT: 10
Audio Enhancement [+2] (Only
for Perception (Hearing))
Vision Enhancement [+2] (Only
for Perception (Visual))
Custom Ballistic Mask [+2] (Only
for Intimidation, Must be visible)
Securetech PPP: Arms Kit [-1]
(Must be visible)
Vashon Island: Sleeping Tiger [+1]
(Must be visible)
ACTIVE SKILLS
SKILL RTG POOL
Archery AGI
(Crossbow +2)
4 8
Computer LOG 2 11
Cybercombat LOG 3 12
Electronic Warfare LOG 6 15
Etiquette CHA
(Corporate +2)
3 6
ACTIVE SKILLS
SKILL RTG POOL
Hacking LOG 6 15
Hardware LOG 2 11
Perception INT
(Visual +2)
3 8
Software LOG 2 11
* Electronics 2
KNOWLEDGE SKILLS
SKILL RTG POOL
English INT +1
(Speak +2)
2 8
Japanese INT +1 Native
Area Knowledge: Neo-Tokyo INT
+1
3 9
Cybertechnology LOG +1 1 11
Data Havens INT +1
(Asia - Pacific +2)
2 8
Mathematics LOG +1 2 12
Matrix Gangs INT +1 2 8
Matrix Threats LOG +1 2 12
Puzzles INT +1 1 7
Security Procedures LOG +1
(Matrix +2)
1 11
Yakuza INT +1
(Turf +2)
1 7
Violet 2.0 file:///C:/Users/BC Shelby/Desktop/violet 2.0.htm
1 of 4 12/26/2018, 3:08 PM
QUALITY
Addiction (Mild): Psyche SR5 77
Addiction (Mild): Cram SR5 77
Code of Honor: Like a Boss DT 46
Exceptional Attribute: LOG SR5 72
Impenetrable Logic KC 76
Quick Config DT 46
Reduced Sense (Smell) RF 159
PHYSICAL DAMAGE
TRACK STUN DAMAGE TRACK
    -1
    -2
    -3
Down OVR  OVR
OVR  Dead
Natural Recovery Pool
(1 day): 6
    -1
    -2
    -3
Down   
Natural Recovery Pool
(1 hour): 7
RESISTANCE POOL
Radiation 7
Judge Intentions 7
RESISTANCE - SPELLS POOL
Combat Spells
Direct, Mana 4
Direct, Physical 3
Indirect, Defense 8
Detection Spells 13
Health Spells
Decrease Attribute - Body 7
Decrease Attribute - Agility 8
Decrease Attribute - Reaction 7
Decrease Attribute - Strength 7
Decrease Attribute -
Charisma 7
Decrease Attribute - Intuition 9
Decrease Attribute - Logic 13
Decrease Attribute -
Willpower 8
Illusion Spells
Mana 13
Physical 14
Manipulation
Spells
Mental 13
Physical 6
RESISTANCE - DAMAGE
TYPE STUN PHYSICAL
Damage 23 23
Fire 27 27
Cold 23 23
Electricity 29 29
Acid 23 23
Falling 23 23
Fatigue 7
Sonic 4
RESISTANCE - TOXINS
AND PATHOGENS CONTACT INGESTION INHALATION INJECTION
Toxin 7 7 Immune 7
Pathogen 7 7 Immune 7
RESISTANCE - ADDICTION NOT ADDICTED YET ALREADY ADDICTED
Physiological 5 9
Psychological 11 11
IMPLANT ESSENCE GRADE
Antennae 0.08 Alphaware CF 74
Antennae 0.08 Alphaware CF 74
Antennae 0.08 Alphaware CF 74
Bone Lacing (Plastic) 0.40 Alphaware SR5 454
Cerebral Booster 2 0.40 Standard SR5 460
Datajack Plus 3 0.12 Alphaware KC 65
Biofeedback Filter; Configurator; Signal Scrub; Universal Connector Cord (Meter);
Mnemonic Enhancer 1 0.10 Standard SR5 460
Muscle Replacement 2 2.00 Standard SR5 455
Narco 0.20 None CF 159
Orthoskin 3 0.60 Alphaware SR5 459
Tetrachromatic Vision 0.10 None CF 161
Violet 2.0 file:///C:/Users/BC Shelby/Desktop/violet 2.0.htm
2 of 4 12/26/2018, 3:08 PM
ARMOR VALUE EQUIPPED
Custom Ballistic Mask +2 ** RG 74
Gas Mask
Vashon Island: Sleeping Tiger 13 ** RG 61
Custom Fit; Fire Resistance 4; Newest Model; Nonconductivity 6; Ruthenium Polymer Coating 3;
Holster
Total of equipped single highest armor and accessories 19
Other Armor
Securetech PPP: Arms Kit +1 RG 70
WEAPON POOL ACCURACY DAMAGE AP MODE RC AMMO [LOADED]
Ranger Sliver Pistol
Crossbow
8 7 (10) 4P - SS 2 4(m)   RG 23
RANGE S M L E
Heavy Pistols 0-5 6-20 21-40 41-60
Personalized Grip; Smartgun System, Internal;
WEAPON POOL ACCURACY DAMAGE AP REACH
Unarmed Attack 3 4 4P - 0 SR5 132
NAME RTG QTY
Bolt: Stick-n-Shock
w/Static Shaft
(Crossbows)
- 20 RG 24
Contacts 3 1 SR5
443
Image Link, Vision Enhancement rating 2;
Cram (Designer Grade) - 4 SR5 1
NAME RTG QTY
Earbuds 3 1 SR5
445
Audio Enhancement rating 2, Sound Link;
Fake SIN (Motoko
Kusanagi)
3 1 SR5
442
Fake License rating 3 (Cyberdeck License) ,
Fake License rating 3 (Projectile License) ,
Fake License rating 3 (Restricted Cyberware
License) ;
Fly on a Wall - 1 DT 57
NAME RTG QTY
Monocle 2 1 SR5
444
Smartlink, Vision Magnification;
Psyche (Designer Grade) - 3 SR5 1
Smoke and Mirrors - 1 DT 57
DEVICE CATEGORY RATING ATTACK SLEAZE DATA PROC. FIREWALL
Novatech Navigator Cyberdecks 3 6 3 4 5 SR5 439
Armor, Blackout, Browse, Commlink Functionality with Camera, Micro, Chip Player, Credstick Reader, Earbuds, GPS Guidance System, Micro
Trid-Projector, Music Player, RFID Tag Scanner, Shock- and Water-Resistant Case, Touchscreen Display; Decryption, Defuse, Edit, Encryption,
Hardening ×2, Program Carrier (Baby Monitor) , Sim Module, Hot, Smoke and Mirrors, Universal Connector Cord (Meter), Vectored Signal
Filter, Virtual Machine;
Pulse Wave Commlinks 6 0 0 6 6 DT 17
Commlink Functionality with Camera, Micro, Chip Player, Credstick Reader, Earbuds, GPS Guidance System, Micro Trid-Projector, Music Player,
RFID Tag Scanner, Shock- and Water-Resistant Case, Touchscreen Display; Receiver;
LIFESTYLE LEVEL COST DURATION
The Dump Low 2,000¥ 1  Month SR5 369
Cramped; Obscure/Difficult to Find; Grid Subscription (Public Grid);
Violet 2.0 file:///C:/Users/BC Shelby/Desktop/violet 2.0.htm
3 of 4 12/26/2018, 3:08 PM
CONTACT LOCATION ARCHETYPE CONNECTION LOYALTY
Neo Tokyo Yakuza Soldier 3 3
Metatype: Human
Sex: Male
Age: Middle-Aged
Preferred Payment
Method:
Service (Free-Labor Jobs)
Hobbies/Vice: Social Habit (Cigarettes)
Personal Life: None of Your Damn Business
Type: Support
Dr Okada Neo Tokyo Physician 4 2
Metatype: Human
Sex: Female
Age: Middle-Aged
Preferred Payment
Method:
Cash (Credstick)
Hobbies/Vice: Gardening
Personal Life: Single
Type: Networking
Mr. Moto Neo Tokyo Fixer 5 2
Metatype: Dwarf (Koborokuru)
Sex: Male
Age: Middle-Aged
Preferred Payment
Method:
Cash (Credstick)
Hobbies/Vice: Noodle Carts
Personal Life: None of Your Damn Business
Type: Swag

Some random observations/thoughts:
3x antennae seems overkill.  although if you took them more for Rule of Cool than mechanical necessity, then never mind :)

Programs? With 20k nuyen left over, just buy all of them. There's no reason not to.

The Muscle Replacement cyberware is a curious decision.  Looking at the whole context of the character, I'm guessing you're using it to make up for glaring weakness left in physical stats after going for 7 Logic?  (and not trying to be an Action Jackson per se?)

Skills: Ouch. Skills are usually the toughest area for me when I make a character, and I'm usually not even happy with the outcome of A priority skills. You gotta make do with what you got.  One recommendation I'd make is to go ahead and swap Computer and Electronic Warfare.  It looks like you put your 2 group points into Electronics.  That's fine for Software and even Hardware (for a beginning decker) but you'll really wish you had more than 2 in Computer.  On the flip side, Electronic Warfare is one of the least relevant "hacker" skills around.  I'd bet that if you were to go ahead and break the Electronics group and put some points in Computer at the price of not being in EW instead that you'd be happier with the result in play.
Oh, and of course the usual advice about "put some points in Etiquette/Negotiation/Sneaking after play begins first chance you get..."

Combat Option:   I'm not sure if smartgun tech is legal on crossbows, but looks like Chummer let you do it. Regardless, a dice pool of 8 (10) isn't getting the job done except against Paul Blarts and Surprised Opponents... so it's really 6 of one and half a dozen of the other no matter what combat skill you pick.  Something you might think about are  touch attack options, where you hit anyway on ties (tasers, shock gloves, and I'm not familiar with shock arrows but maybe those already are touch attack projectiles anyway). The weapon that makes maximum offensive value out of a limited die pool is grenades... everything after 3 hits is wasted anyway! Yeah yeah it's Neo-Tokyo, but I didn't say explosive grenades... you could look into some fun gas and smoke options!

Combat Option pt 2: Since you have 20K you've got to do something about, you could still get a combat pet in the form of a drone and let it do your fighting on your behalf! Best of all it can fight while you do hacking stuff! You don't necessarily need piloting skills- just spend money on a decent pilot program and autosofts.  Double bonus: EW skill will be of heightened relevance if you do routinely operate a drone!

Qualities: Not to suggest you change them, but some lovelies I enjoy are Go Big or Go Home (DT 44), Overclocker (RF 148), and of course when Better than Bad is SRM legal every Hacker will take Instinctive Hack (2 karma; you get a free matrix action before the first pass of the first turn in a combat)

kyoto kid

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« Reply #3 on: (16:11:43/12-28-18) »
...thanks.  A little cluttered but I made a copy and will edit out the busy stuff to make it more readable. Really wish there was just a "view" option for an attachment instead of only downloading.

Yeah, skills are problematic for me as well. I did a couple switches (which will be in the revised post of the character) but not sure what group would make sense as most others are Charisma or physically based (middling attributes in both).  For missions I don't believe you can break a skill group at chargen.  Deckers really need skills at Priority B  but that means really crappy attributes, particularly if the character is human (important in Neo Tokyo)

  Yeah the muscle replacement seems a bit incongruous bit nice to have a little more Agility than 2 for movement purposes when things get scary.  Went though a couple different concepts including Cyberlimbs (full synthetic arms which could work nicely into a backstory) or Muscle Toner bioware but both were more expensive.

As to bows and crossbows, yes you can get an internal smartlink (no "top mount" so the external doesn't work).  I believe Static Shock/S&S bolts still have an effect on a matched hit result (I know incendiary bolts do but those are rather illegal everywhere).  The issues I have with grenades is they can be easily avoided with a -5 interrupt action, and are indiscriminate meaning she could catch her chummers in the effect as with a low STR, she wouldn't have a decent range matrix.  Not sure I like being the "up close and personal" type (touch attack) with her low physical attributes and again, low pool which would be easy to dodge as well as a low Physical Limit. One weapon I thought about that uses archery skill which could be interesting the Ares Giantslayer slingshot using capsule rounds that can be filled with all sorts of fun chemicals.

Really wanted to use Looper Rounds (don't need someone to climb up and attach a data cable/tap to a camera) but that means using a gun which is "F" in Neo Tokyo (even light pistols and holdouts).  Sort of surprised they didn't also have Looper Heads for bolts & arrows, seems more plausible (considering there are S&S heads) than the Arrowlink.

The last time I played a Decker was in 3E (which also had an alternate build point system that made it easier to customise a character) where one was able to get up to 1 million in resources one and could build a decker with a fairly good deck who was great in the matrix and more functional/survivable in the meat world.  Just isn't possible in 5th. The last one I had then was able to afford to compensate better for her lacking physical attributes with augmentations.
« Last Edit: (16:59:41/12-28-18) by kyoto kid »
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: (17:03:36/12-28-18) »
Some more decker-centric thoughts:

I played a decker for 2 seasons worth of the Chicago campaign.  I did Attributes A, Skills B, and Resources C. The schtick was the character was a former urban brawler. (and therefore I wanted non-decker physical attributes...)  The point is, I started with a 58K Microdeck Summit cyberdeck and it worked out fine.  Eventually I upgraded to a Hermes Chariot, and subsequent to that I ended up capturing and claiming a NPC's Sony CIY-720. 

It's very easy to over-pay for a cyberdeck.  Remember that until your skill pool is more than 3x the best limit you really don't need a more expensive deck yet (and don't forget that pre-edging means your ASDF stats are meaningless...). Hell, a Summit coupled with the Overclocker quality is all the deck you need until your die pool gets into the neighborhood of 18 dice. The Overclocker quality is huge, but you can also enhance your cheap-o deck's limits via even cheap-er programs. The real limitation of a cheap deck, unfortunately, is the low Device Ratings which in turn limits your program options... but you've already got the Datajack Plus to help get around that as well.

Something I'm intrigued by are the new decks in Kill Code. Particularly the security decks... they're locked with a Sleaze of 1, but you go ahead and run Smoke-n-Mirrors and go right around that achilles heel.  I suspect there's a gem in there but haven't pursued it since I play a covert ops char now in Neo-Tokyo.

Speaking of my current Neo-Tokyo character... here's some Neo Tokyo Campaign thoughts:

Guns being forbidden is not THAT big a deal.  Shooting people is also forbidden, and that's not about to stop you, is it? :D  My philosophy is go with a pistol and palming.  A nice small pistol if you're going for utility ammo anyway (like Looper rounds) since it's less likely it'll be found.  And if it is found, remember that per the FAQ you basically are offered a social encounter to bribe your way out of trouble.  Pay a couple hundred nuyen as a penalty for failing your palming check :D

Being a metahuman is also not that big a deal.  My Neo-Tokyo character is not only an elf, but also female, AND a gaijin American. I actually kinda get morbidly excited when we meet a NPC where I hit the trifecta of all three prejudices. And even then, it's not a HUGE deal.  So if you are tempted at all, don't let "but it's Neo-Tokyo" sway you out of it... the priority array implications is generally enough as is! :D 
« Last Edit: (17:10:53/12-28-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

kyoto kid

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« Reply #5 on: (20:39:55/12-28-18) »
...the background concept for this character is more of a stealth rather than in your face combat Decker, so for her sleaze rating is very important.  For a number of matrix actions she'd routinely use, Electronic Warfare is fairly important skill for the pool.  So trying an alternate build where I switched skills with attributes.  Yeah it's a big hit as several attributes are 1 point lower, but then I can take the Electronics group at 5. She's is more the type who will get her marks get into an item and mess with it rather than brick it, like editing a Smartlink to drop the clip when the trigger is pulled, or have a pursuing vehicle suddenly slam its brakes on (she also has the Cats Paw programme which can add negative modifiers).  Because of her "Like a Boss" quality she cannot cause actual matrix damage, but that doesn't preclude her from engaging other wireless based mayhem.

This version has Pistols skill so she can use S&S, Looper, or capsule rounds.  I gave her one full obvious cyberarm on her primary hand (with Custom Agility and Armour 3 along with one synthetic cyberhand on her other both with the Snake Fingers option which aids in palming tests, specialised palming in Legerdemain (concealing). This was less costly than the Muscle Toner and still added to both her overall Strength and Agility (+1). In her primary hand she has an Agility of 4 so that should work for her pistol skill. I then gave her a Browning Ghost which has a base conceal of -3 (which in NT adds to the palming test giving her 12 dice) and is extremely quiet along with a concealed quckdraw holster (total conceal -4).

The downside of lower power decks is not just the number of programmes that can run simultaneously but their effectiveness against noise. Yeah, you can install a programme carrier to add a single programme but unless you are really quick at switching programmes and attributes (and/or have a lot of edge to blow to overcome limits) you can find yourself in a heap of trouble if an alert occurs . 

For myself, a rating 3 Deck is the minimum I'd ever to go with, adding a programme carrier and using the new Datajack Plus which would give me a total of 7 progammes.  Instead of the ambient rating 2 background count that Chicago has, Neo Tokyo has a persistent noise level of 2 so you need a lot of noise reduction, particularly if you are using programmes like Smoke & Mirrors to cover your tracks. As I currently have the character set up, she has noise reduction of 10: Deck rating (-3) Datajack Plus (-2), Signal Scrub (-2) and 3 antennae (-3 total).  AS with the CZ, there are can be local areas in Neo Tokyo where the noise is higher than the ambient.

I rarely play metas in 5E because it means something else like skills or resources take a hit.  I'd rather have a few more points of edge, particularly if the character has several lacking areas.

One quality I was hoping to see in Kill Code was something like "To Smart to be Hit" which would allow a character to use his/her logic in place of willpower for full defence.   There is a quality that allows for that but it only applies when in the Matrix.  I would think such a quality would make more sense than "Too Pretty to Hit" as a highly intelligent character is generally on edge and very calculating. 

Well back to the alternate version.  I'll post both later.
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« Reply #6 on: (22:39:35/12-28-18) »
ugh the auto-formating makes this stuff much harder to read then it needs to be.
Clearly hacking almost all in the advantages these days.
Like a Boss is a perfectly reasonable option but it does clearly demarcate a decker hacking method. I personally prefer the overclock perfect timing build if your gonna run the straight sleaze HotF method, it's a solid method.,

Finally double addiction is just kinda lazy, we have so so many, negative qualities now. I mean everyone favorite dead sin is here.
 
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kyoto kid

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« Reply #7 on: (23:40:51/12-28-18) »
...Exceptional Attribute kinda takes a big chunk of Karma and I believe it has to be taken at chargen. The plan is to later get Genetic Optimisation (Logic) and increasing the attribute to 10. 

The alternate version I'm working on has both perfect time and quick configuration so she can swap programmes and deck attributes at whim (she also has Configurator on her Datajack Plus).  Sadly her physical states take a little extra hit as like mentioned above I swapped skill and attribute priorities as for a stealth Decker as Electronic Warfare comes into play for several pools.  Everybody is always bricking stuff with Hammer I am more interested in being a bit more "sly" and "creative" about messing up other people's tech.
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kyoto kid

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« Reply #8 on: (15:15:32/12-29-18) »
...yeah under the Priority System and reduced resources, I realise I just cannot create a Decker who can do a few more things than just hack systems like I had in 3E. 

Ended up dumping the Exceptional Attribute to move that Attribute point into Charisma which frees up the Karma spent (she will need for contacts) and instead took Silence is Golden (which effectively negates the base ambient noise of NT). Also replaced Like a Boss with Faceless and Electronic Witness (more appropriate).  If Missions allowed for Sum to Ten I'd go 4: Resources 3: Attributes 3: Skills, 0: Metatype 0: Magic,  Yeah that would leave her with two less edge but then she'd have a slightly better Bod, Agility, Reaction and Charisma
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« Reply #9 on: (00:58:49/12-30-18) »
I maintain the cyberarm method is the most reliable method for combat decking. You can leave most physicals at very low, and just let the arm do the work.
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« Reply #10 on: (01:07:53/12-30-18) »
...yeah that was the idea.  So if the arm is her primary hand does its Agility rating for that count for the pool when she's using her pistol? 
« Last Edit: (13:49:19/12-30-18) by kyoto kid »
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #11 on: (12:17:22/12-30-18) »
...yeah thatwas the idea.  So if teh arm is her primary hand does its Agility rating for that count for the pool when she's using her pistol?

Cyberlimbs inherently rely on GM's whim, so that's a turn-off for some in SRM since there's the potential for a GM you've never played with to view things differently than you/your past GMs.

So the way it works is this:
Quote from: SR5 Cyberlimbs, pgs 455-456
Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings.
When a particular limb is used for a test (such as
leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute
for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the
average value of all limbs involved in the task. If a task
requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the
value of the weakest limb. The attributes of partial limbs
(including cyberhands and –feet) may be enhanced, but
their attributes only apply for tests directly involving
those limbs (such as a Strength Test when gripping something
with an enhanced cyberhand).

There's a good bit to unpack there. The first GM whim is determining whether the task you're doing can be done solely by a single cyberlimb or not.  The next whim is "if not", then what limbs are involved (and just as importantly which are not) for the purposes of averaging the attributes across the parts of the body involved in the task.

So taking a break to digest what we have so far: If you go to thwack someone with a Katana, you might have one GM say you can just use the stats of one arm.  The next GM might insist katanas are meant to be used two handed, and you have to use two arms.  The third GM might say that not only do you use two arms, the two arms can't perform a task together without the foundation of your core, and since the torso is a potential "limb" as recognized by the cyberlimb rules, you average 3 'limbs' in the two arms and core body.  Etc.

The next whim is whether or not the task involves "careful coordination of several limbs".  If so, then there's no averaging but simply using the worst value of any body part involved. 

Then finally another GM whim is triggered in the event you do partial limb replacements as to whether or not the task can be done by a partial limb.

Something I find of interest is how Chummer calculates AGI/STR when you have cyberlimbs.  (I bring it up since it appears you're using it, too)
Chummer treats the body as having 6 limb slots (4 limbs, torso, skull) and gives you an augmented AGI/STR value based on averaging across 6 'limbs': 2 arms, 2 legs, torso, skull.  Bear in mind the rules don't actually call out an augmented bonus to AGI/STR based on cyberlimbs, so Chummer is kind of reaching.  In giving an augmented bonus, what it's really doing is showing you what your average stat is if the task at hand is averaged across all 6 limbs, including the agi/str of your head!.  The GM deciding a task involves all 6 limbs is slim.  And if the GM invokes "careful coordination between limbs", you just go with the lowest. If that's your natural stat, it's just that.  There technically is no augmented bonus (unless it comes from something other the cyberlimb)

Chummer example: say you have an AGI of 2, but you buy a single cyberarm and end up pushing its AGI to 9. Chummer will show your AGI stat in the attributes block as 2(3), and down in the gear it'll specify your Cyberlimb as 9.  If you go to shoot a SMG, and the GM insists you have to use 2 arms, you don't average 9 and 2(3) you average 9 and 2.  And if the GM says shooting the SMG with two hands involves careful coordination, you just roll 2 not 2(3).
« Last Edit: (13:06:51/12-30-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

kyoto kid

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« Reply #12 on: (14:01:19/12-30-18) »
...got that.  Yeah never used cyberlimbs before (even in 3E) as they just seemed so complicated. For something like a light pistol, I can see the limb's full agility coming into play as that is usually fired one handed.  I also can see that if you just have cyberarms, it makes sense they shouldn't affect your running speed. I do get the +1 bonus to Palming for the dual snake fingers in Chummer, so that at least works. and the average of the two (the right is only the base 3 Agility while the left, her primary hand, has a Custom 4 Agility. However, if I add custom agility to the right it doesn't change the pool (one would think it would).  I mainly got the full arm so she had a better pool with pistols as the world outside of NT (the 2018 CMPs) is a lot rougher. 

I'll have to ask my local Missions group how they handle cyberlimbs.  We do have one character with a totally maxxed out full cyberarm who is pretty scary with it (like busting down doors with a punch).
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Marcus

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« Reply #13 on: (14:51:24/12-30-18) »
The accepted definition based upon the core book rules is so long as the weapon only uses the arm, it uses the arm's stats.
That comes from the core example:

Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings.
When a particular limb is used for a test (such as
leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute
for that limb (natural or cyber);


No one has successfully argued another interpenetration on this board for that specific example.

After one yes it gets more complex, but keep in mind, most activities aren't going to involve more then two limbs.
Averaging two limbs when one is max possible rating is still going to give you a large bonus, for a low cost.

So yes arm are little complex but keep this in mind, A max limb will probably runs you 50k ish depend on what you put in it. But that arms plus 6 skill+ spec into pistols, and a smartllink you can easily hit 18 dice while shooting.  It does other things as well it gives you extra health box and some pretty good armor. Yeah it takes some reading but a beefy cyberarm can do wonders for combat effectiveness.

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #14 on: (15:03:27/12-30-18) »
...
No one has successfully argued another interpenetration on this board for that specific example.
...

That's kind of a strange thing to say.

There's no need for any other interpretation, as the rules say what they say (and were quoted upthread).

I'm not sure if this is your point, but the rules don't say that any and all attacks ignore the rules regarding averaging across limbs or using only the lowest values in the case of "close coordination".  It only says attacks that "lead" with the cyberlimb ignore averaging/lowest value.  That is, pretty much just unarmed attacks?  If you lead with the tip of your knife or edge of your katana you're not leading with your cyberfist... if you're attacking via pulling a trigger you're "leading" the attack with the point of a bullet... etc.