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How does Extraterritoriallity work?

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ThievesHand

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« on: (19:06:05/12-21-18) »
Okay, so I know what it is in general: Corps of sufficient size are granted extraterritoriallity; their territories may have their own laws and enjoy certain diplomatic things. These territories often have corporate citizens working for corporate cred they can only use in their own shops.

What I want to know is what are examples of these territories? How big are they, and how many does one corporation have? How are the borders protected? What surrounds these territories? In other words, I understand the concept of extraterritoriallity, but I have no idea how this would show up in my games.

Sorry if this is in the wrong category. I am new to these kinds of forums...

Reaver

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« Reply #1 on: (19:53:56/12-21-18) »
OK, you are on the right track with your thinking. An other way to think of it is that extra-territoriality just like the boarder between nations. (because it effectively is!)

Currently there is a number of companies that are large enough of warrant extra-territoriality (so many in fact that i forget them all), in game terms, any company that is AA or larger in status has extra-territoriality.

As to their size, they are as big as they need to be to encompass entity in question. So they could be as small as a single building (a few hundred square feet) , to as large as an industrial complex (a few dozen kilometers!).

An entity will have as many extra-territoriality zones as they have separate facilities.  Meaning if Ares has 15 buildings spread across a town, EACH one is an Ares extra-territoriality zone!

Now, along with that extra-territoriality comes some responsibilities:

1: The area must be "clearly marked", and "clearly divided" from the adjacent territoriality.
  This is a fancy way of saying they have to mark their boarders and property.  This can be done as easily as posting signs, and a property divider (some sort of barrier like a fence, wall, hedge, etc). - Really, this is no different then the way any business or individual marks the boundaries of their own property now.

2: They are liable everything that happens on their property, and the effects that may have on adjacent territoriality. Which basically means, that while they can get away with just about anything on their own property, they are responsible if something harmful leaves that property. (toxins, wastes, lead)

So, how this all works in your game:

The Aztech Pyramid in Seattle is a giant mall and office building. Everyone in the city shops there. However, what many people that shop there may not realize is, the Entire Pyramid is An Aztechnology extra-territoriality Zone! Meaning that you don't deal with UCAS law and law enforcement if you commit a crime there, you deal with Aztech legal system and enforcement!
       However, because the Pyramid itself is located in the heart of Seattle surrounded by the UCAS, and wants to do business with UCAS citizens it wouldn't employ lethal measures anywhere that the public would be endangered. (The security of the Pyramid would be staggered, with more and more harsh security the deeper up to the office structure you go)
      Now, out in Tacoma, Aztechnology also runs cutting edge research facility and is for employees only. The building is surrounded by a concrete barrier 3 meters high, and topped with razor wire. You try to get into the facility, they will shoot you dead! And they can get away with that type of action because they have taken steps to stop collateral damage from leaving their property (the concrete wall around the facility).


The important things to remember are:
It has to be clearly marked.
It has boarder.

So a covert research facility deep in the barrens does NOT have extra-territoriality. But an office building with a giant logo on it does!


Extra-territoriality is a double edged sword for Corporations.
While it allows them to get away with virtually anything on their grounds, it also limits them to their grounds.

So if you are on a Run, and things go south and security is hot on your tail, they can only legally chase you to the edge of their property, and not an inch farther.
This also means Knight Errant and Lone Star can't follow you onto Corp Property as well, as their jurisdiction ends at the city/state property line.
(this is handy for evading capture!)

***NOTE***  THIS DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE CORPS AND THE POLICE  DON'T CO-OPERATE! It just means that co-operation isn't automatic, nor explicit. It has to be sought out each time from the respective parties. But it doesn't stop a Corp from notifying the police that a BnE is in progress and assistance is requested. (So the police can take over after you're off the property)   

Does that help you any?
       
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: (19:56:56/12-21-18) »
Extraterritoriality is given some coverage in the core rulebook on pgs 21-22.

Bear in mind that extraterritoriality already exists in the real world.  The only fictional part is that (mega)corporations can be considered sovereign in the shadowrun universe.

Corporate extraterritorial enclaves can work very much like real world extraterritorial enclaves such as embassies where the enclaves are small and despite being fairly well-integrated into the local infrastructure (utilities, emergency services, etc) they do express full sovereignty (local laws don't apply, etc).

Some enclaves might be even more integrated into local conditions, such as the remaining possessions of the Knights of Malta.  Perhaps there are letters of understanding with local emergency services to allow routine access much like most military bases in the US have arrangements with civilian law enforcement.  Perhaps the enclave is officially extraterritorial simply to avoid paying taxes.  (probably happens A LOT in Shadowrun).

Some enclaves might be hyper secure and completely cut off from the local infrastructure.  Think Guantanamo Bay or a MCT Zero Zone. 

But also remember: perhaps the sites holding the most secretive/black operations aren't extraterritorial at all.  If you publicly declare your sovereignty there, you can't pretend it wasn't your guys doing whatever nasty things they were doing...

There's no real limit on sizes of enclaves, but there's surely diminishing returns when an enclave becomes big.  Administering a complete town or large portion of a city involves all sorts of unprofitable necessities that could have otherwise been left to the hapless local government.


ThievesHand

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« Reply #3 on: (05:28:41/12-22-18) »
Thank you Reaver and Stainless Steel Devil Rat (that name :P) for your answers. They are really helpful, and I think I have a better understanding of what extraterritoriallity is. Also, I was surprised about the quick replies, thanks ever so much!

Follow up question: SSDR said the following
Administering a complete town or large portion of a city involves all sorts of unprofitable necessities that could have otherwise been left to the hapless local government.
But does it ever happen? If so, is this where wageslaves often live? If not, I guess wageslaves live outside those borders, but go to work in corporate territories. Much like a person lives in a government neighbourhood, but goes to work in a factory or office owned by a corporations nowadays.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: (11:10:50/12-22-18) »
Thank you Reaver and Stainless Steel Devil Rat (that name :P)...

Hehe you're welcome.  And the name's a classical reference! :D

Quote
Follow up question: SSDR said the following
Administering a complete town or large portion of a city involves all sorts of unprofitable necessities that could have otherwise been left to the hapless local government.
But does it ever happen? If so, is this where wageslaves often live? If not, I guess wageslaves live outside those borders, but go to work in corporate territories. Much like a person lives in a government neighbourhood, but goes to work in a factory or office owned by a corporations nowadays.

As Reaver mentioned, there are the major extraterritorial enclaves like Seattle's Renraku Arcology and Aztechnology Pyramid.  I imagine that there's also much more minor enclaves around for company housing.  Ones that are essentially the same thing as gated communities today... just even more stuck up about their privacy!

For an entire municipality to be extraterritorial, it'd probably have to have conditions similar to the historical company towns. For example, a mining company town arose because the mine was remote and there were no roads leading there, so a railhead was put in and the company built barracks, stores, and etc...  The Sixth world is much more urbanized than the real world, so it's actually fairly plausible that some place that's not remote in the real world can once again be cut off from modern "sprawl centric" life in 2080.  Maybe AgriCorp found the freedom to be allowed to do whatever the hell they want worth the price of maintaining a city government and just took over a remote Iowa town to administer a bunch of farms.  Maybe ManufacturingCorp wants an entire Alabama town so that they can literally re-write the environmental regulations before building their planned factory. 

Whatever the needs of your story are is what's really dictating how big/expansive or even common the extraterritorial enclaves are in your world.

ThievesHand

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« Reply #5 on: (07:31:13/12-23-18) »
Didn't know stainless steel rat before, but after looking at it, it sounds like a Shadowrun character :p.

Thanks again for the replies. I think the way I want this to be in my game, is to really convey the idea of "okay, look, there is the border of Ares territory, so you better not f*& around in there". Municipality would be contained, but mostly by providing luxury but more importantly safety to its inhabitants. Wage slaves need to think that their lives is the best they'll get, while they're really just kept on a leash.

Ixal

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« Reply #6 on: (09:45:45/12-23-18) »
Didn't know stainless steel rat before, but after looking at it, it sounds like a Shadowrun character :p.

Thanks again for the replies. I think the way I want this to be in my game, is to really convey the idea of "okay, look, there is the border of Ares territory, so you better not f*& around in there". Municipality would be contained, but mostly by providing luxury but more importantly safety to its inhabitants. Wage slaves need to think that their lives is the best they'll get, while they're really just kept on a leash.

Thats pretty much the default.
Imo the gated community approach would be the most common. Ares employees live in an Ares community under Ares law and protected  by Ares security. Every day they leave Ares property, travel on roads and trains maintained by a national government (because there is no profit in that) to the place the work which is again under Ares law.
Living in an Ares community is a perk and the best they can hope for (at least thats what they are told) and it also ensures that they can be fully under surveilance, only get to hear what Ares wants them to hear and can only buy Ares goods (not that anyone else would accept their corp script).

There are exceptions though. Some employes are too unsignificant to house on corp property. They are left to live on government property or wherever else they manage to find a place to live.
On the other sides there are arcologies, fully contained cities owned by a corp where people live and work and technically never have to leave. Those are either created for prestige, like the Aztechnology pyramid or Neu-Essen (aka Lofwyrtown) or because they are so remote that nothing else is there to dump all unprofitable operations off to like a remote mining operation or underwater research station.
Among the employes in those acrologies are the very high paid ones you want to keep out of the hands of other corps so they are housed deep in the corps territory where they have as much control as possible.

One thing about jurisdictions as you mention Ares. For example in Seattle Knight Errant, Ares security service, also have the cities police contract so they have no trouble following you in and out of Ares owned territories.

Also, in some instances there will be agreements between corps to let others onto their premise, especially when dealing with retail or entertainment areas where non corp people are welcome. It would be kinda counter productive if Docwagon couldn't get to a client who has a heart attack just because he is in an Aztechnology owned Stuffer Shack.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: (05:34:14/12-29-18) »
Didn't know stainless steel rat before, but after looking at it, it sounds like a Shadowrun character :p.

Thanks again for the replies. I think the way I want this to be in my game, is to really convey the idea of "okay, look, there is the border of Ares territory, so you better not f*& around in there". Municipality would be contained, but mostly by providing luxury but more importantly safety to its inhabitants. Wage slaves need to think that their lives is the best they'll get, while they're really just kept on a leash.
MCT is the scariest btw: They practice zero-zone: Kill all intruders on sight.

Keep in mind that secret stuff won't be extra-territorial, while the public stuff is, and just watch a few embassy-episodes of stuff like NCIS if you want some mental prep for a run.
CorpSec when an alarm is triggered;: "This is so sad, Alexa play Shoot The Runner"

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #8 on: (10:10:49/12-29-18) »
The Stuffer Shack reference upthread merits a rebuttal, I think. Not EVERYTHING a corp with extraterritoriality owns will express extraterritoriality.  As mentioned, some 'black sites' may be publicly disavowed and hence don't have extraterritoriality.  But that's not the only time...

Yes, Stuffer Shack is a subsidiary owned by Aztechnology.  But it usually doesn't make profitable sense to enforce extraterritoriality in a convenience store.  Just let Lone Star (or whoever) come arrest the gang terrorizing the Stuffer Shack rather than bothering with sending corpsec.  There's probably some FASAnomics (to borrow a BattleTech fandom term) reasons why a given site might not benefit from extraterritoriality (maybe it's harder to sell and therefore depresses real estate value, it has higher overhead, or whatever).  Of course as an Aztechnology holding, a given Stuffer Shack might be an extraterritorial enclave. The rub is you can't SECRETLY be extraterritorial.  So maybe this extraterritorial Stuffer Shack is literally the cover for some Aztechnology operation going on below ground.  Finding out why a Stuffer Shack is classified as an Aztech enclave is the kernel for a shadowrun that almost writes itself.

Another interesting note on extraterritoriality goes beyond enclaves: Important figures in a sovereign organization (heads of state, so on) normally enjoy extraterritoriality in foreign jurisdictions in the real world.  In Shadowrun, it's beyond probable that high ranking megacorp execs enjoy the same immunity from "local" prosecution wherever they go when outside their corp's enclaves.  Think of the real-world U.N. diplomats wandering around ignoring the traffic laws of NYC, only with a lot more money and power.
« Last Edit: (10:16:47/12-29-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »