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Does a matrix user in the AR user mode have a Persona?"

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #15 on: (02:37:17/12-01-18) »
Maybe it would be easier to look at the matrix user as a technomancer.
The technomancer can do cybercombat in AR, you can attack him in AR and if he gets converged its gonna hurt. And he would use his physically initiative all along.

This is an excellent point.

A living persona is useable in AR (pg 251, 12th line).  Yet if you can't see personas in AR, how do you target a technomancer's living persona with matrix actions when he's in AR?  You think it's intended that technomancers are mechanically untouchable on the matrix when in AR?

If technomancers are special and only they get to have a persona in AR, then why aren't they immediately obvious as being technomancers because they're the only personas in AR?
« Last Edit: (02:42:15/12-01-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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Reaver

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« Reply #16 on: (04:55:05/12-01-18) »
I admit, this confused me for like, forever...
AR: is the standard way the Average Joe uses the Matrix. (and yes, he has a persona). This is the guy today walking down the street while reading the SR forums (I'm not the only one that does this.. am I???).  So, while you are on the matrix, you are not in the matrix. (your meat is still under your control).

VR: This the advanced mode of use, used by those that require that better connection speed by cutting the meat from the command chain. This is that Asshole that just has to try out his VR headset on the public street... (and you point and laugh at as when he wanders into traffic and gets hit..or, again, is that just me???)
When you use VR, you are not just on the matrix, you are in the matrix. And since you are in the matrix, your meat is sitting somewhere, growing potatoes...  (Cause we all know what the hygiene of a VR junkie is like...)


Naturally, both AR and VR has its own set of advantages and disadvantages... but both are using the matrix, both have personas, and both use matrix actions.


For me, the way to remember was a single line on page 234:
" When is a device not a device? When itís a persona! "

and when is a Persona formed? When someone uses the matrix.....
« Last Edit: (18:51:48/12-01-18) by Reaver »
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #17 on: (05:15:33/12-01-18) »
I bounced this question off of one of my friends, and I think I figured out where the disconnect is. Remember, unless something is being done to specifically augment the matrix, it isn't a 100% 1-for-1 representation of the world around you. Personas and devices exist on the matrix, not just floating around. The matrix is a black plain flatland under a black sky, lit by the glow of devices. It's a projection of the world made flat (page 217). It never says that visualization is 100% overlaid onto the real world when you are looking around in AR. That's why when you spot a Matrix Icon you need to get 2 MARKs and perform a Trace Icon action to be able to find out where it is physically.

One way to visualize this in our current terminology would be like having a visualization of Pokemon GO pulled up in your display. The game shows the various icons of the things around you, but it isn't always 100% accurate, and it isn't necessarily going to match up with the physical objects around you. So, those people walking around on the streets, when you look around you in the Matrix will instead have those people's Personas walking around instead. The reason why none of the adventure descriptions include the descriptions of personas walking around is because by default the authors aren't assuming that someone is trying to walk around in full Matrix vision mode. When you are just walking around normally, it would be much more practical (if you still want to keep an eye on the Matrix) to have your Matrix viewpoint set up as a window in your HUD, sort of like a more detailed compass/radar in most video games. Trying to do a complete layover would be either noisy and overly confusing (too much data) or simply not useful (too many filters). So by default, the view they give most descriptions is one where that data is filtered.

Now, you ask, what about all those AR signs and billboards, or ads coming from the Matrix. We see those overlaid onto your ImageLink on top of our normal vision. Wouldn't those be on the Matrix vision? Shouldn't that mean that we see the Matrix view?
Quite simply, no. AROs are a special object specifically tied to a physical object or location. It is something specifically set up to be seen even by people who aren't paying attention to the Matrix perspective.

Hobbes

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« Reply #18 on: (10:08:51/12-01-18) »
To do a Matrix Action you need to form your Persona.  You can choose AR, Hot Sim or Cold Sim.  But any Matrix action a character does requires a Persona because you need your ASDF.

Everything in the Matrix is an Icon.  If it doesn't have an Icon, its not in the Matrix.  People Icons are Personas. 

If you're simply talking about aesthetics and not mechanics, you can absolutely fluff your AR Matrix Persona as a small pair of eyes and hands that are where your characters eyes and hands are.  The Cutting Ace's Source book gives you all kinds of Cosmetic Persona options that are intended to be used in AR.

Marcus

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« Reply #19 on: (11:19:44/12-01-18) »
I've read the sections, and there isn't that quote. But I have made the case clearly. My interpretations are equally valid and only require re-interpreting one section on Convergence. One that was actually was not possible to occur when that section was written (As you couldn't actually trigger convergence from a commlink until DT.) So I have no issue disregarding that section. Your method straight up invalidates ever section that describes AR, and all the other descriptions I have discussed. Nothing you have said changes that fact.  If you guys are correct the all the AR description need to completely re-written, and all introduction description all need to updated across all cannon material. To me that makes no sense I will certainly not proceed under that basis. I don't foresee the powers that be making those changes ether.

Also you would need re-define Matrix Fame, under my method the flaw works, you don't have a clearly recognizable persona verse your method, where everyone apparently does have constantly up recognizable persona. So everyone who saw your persona would know you are that famous internet person.

Ok Kiir so are you saying that you commlink in AR doesn't display Persona's without some specific setting to do so? In effect persona are by default filtered out as visual noise? 
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #20 on: (11:35:06/12-01-18) »
Marcus, Kiirnodel's last post illuminated something for me that maybe explains why you have trouble accepting what everyone is saying:

Quote
Remember, unless something is being done to specifically augment the matrix, it isn't a 100% 1-for-1 representation of the world around you.

The discussion spiralled out from my saying that someone could attend a meet with Tanaka-san in AR, and (my understanding of) the foundation of your complaint with my claim has been basically "then why don't we see descriptions of AR personas flying around in the corpus of area descriptions".

Let's back things all the way up to my claim in the SRM thread that you can attend the meet with Tanaka-san virtually, in AR.

All things being "normal", ok you're right in that visiting a remote host in the matrix doesn't work as a direct matrix analogue for Astral Projection.  If a matrix user in Seattle wants to access the host for a Neo-Tokyo business, his persona doesn't appear to people in Neo-Tokyo... the host he's accessing is simply perceptible to him across the matrix in Seattle.

But that's not what I was referring to.  I was referring to the examples of people's matrix avatars (both AR and VR) interacting with people in contexts such as those described for Dante's Inferno and the Neo-Tokyo business downtown... the key thing that makes it work is both the "ghost" and the perceiver must be logged into that same host that provides the functionality for the ghost to see a 1 for 1 digital rendering of the physical world and for people physically present to see the persona interacting with that rendering.

So yes, technically, when I said "you can just AR ghost to the meet with Tanaka-san" that was including an unstated but I thought understood provision that "so long as you, Tanaka-san, and the rest of the team all are logged in to a host that permits such an interaction".  That's not a reasonable assumption for meets in places like a burned out warehouse, but it is (imo) fairly so in the kinds of places you meet in the Neo-Tokyo SRM campaign.

But the key thing is, since you can't see across a Host's matrix event horizon (those inside a host can't see icons outside the host, and those outside a host can't see icons inside the host) THAT's why you don't see descriptions of matrix personas (AR or otherwise) zooming around the AR landscape in the corpus of canon.
« Last Edit: (11:41:58/12-01-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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Hobbes

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« Reply #21 on: (11:55:55/12-01-18) »
I've read the sections, and there isn't that quote.

User modes P. 229

"When you interact with the Matrix, you can do it in one
of three modes. In augmented reality, or AR mode, you
deal with reality directly, and you use your meat body
to interact with the Matrix through AR overlays. "


P. 229
"AUGMENTED REALITY
As weíve described, AR is normal living in physical
space with an AR heads-up display. You can see the
Matrix if you like, either by creating a virtual window
or display screen and viewing it like a camera, or by
overlaying device and host information on your normal
vision. Your persona can go anywhere in the Matrix using this view. "

AR mode forms a Persona. 

Edit:  That came out a little blunt, apologies.  Please imagine some kind of verbal padding around the sentence fragments.... :)
« Last Edit: (12:01:51/12-01-18) by Hobbes »

Hobbes

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« Reply #22 on: (12:17:11/12-01-18) »

Let's back things all the way up to my claim in the SRM thread that you can attend the meet with Tanaka-san virtually, in AR.


I can think of a couple CMPs where the initial meet is in the Matrix. 

If the initial meet isn't specifically in the Matrix I can see the GM applying some negative modifiers to whatever social checks.  If Tanaka-san asks to meet you physically you should show up physically.  Depending on the nature of Tanaka-san of course.  IIRC one of the Season 9 contacts is more Old School and would probably be offended (Negative Social modifier applied) but Virtual or Astral attendance would still count as showing up.

Some Tanaka-Sans probably wouldn't even blink though and carry on as normal. 

Just my GM call.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #23 on: (16:57:16/12-01-18) »
I must admit I am utterly lost why apparently we're debating whether or not AR people have personas. But leaving that ridiculous debate aside, I'm a bit out of date on matrix sourcebooks (Kill Code isn't available for agents yet) and was wondering: I know you can't change a persona normally but I thought the type of persona looks depended on the commlink, not on your own physical looks?_? What source-stuff am I missing regarding that a personal would look like the runner?
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #24 on: (17:54:20/12-01-18) »
Kill Code swung the pendulum a little too far in one direction, without cleaning it up.

The very first time someone "logs in" to a device, the Foundation gives birth to their persona.  It is a collection of, among other things, brain waves, GPS location, usage patterns, etc.
Unfortunately, Kill Code didn't also reinforce that a Persona can look like anything - within the guidelines such as humanoid, and roughly Metahuman sized (compared to the rest of the icons).

This also brings up other "glitches" that I don't think anyone has considered yet...  Such as the back end of the Persona - all the stuff that is used to identify users and authorizations - never changes.  If Michael Chandra works as a wageslave at ShadowCorp by day, and then goes running at night as a Decker, all the digital trails he leaves behind is still Michael Chandra regardless of how you've changed the appearance of the Persona..  So don't go and hack your Corp.  :P

PiXeL01

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« Reply #25 on: (18:29:12/12-01-18) »
Data Trails had base Persona per model of device you were using but you were free to change from that. Thereís even a matrix action allowing you to change appearance fit in within CRB.

If what ISP writes is true then itís the end of hackers. They would be too easy to track down and no matter what you did your signature, like that of magicians would be the same.
If Tom Bradyís a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

PiXeL01

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« Reply #26 on: (18:34:14/12-01-18) »
No matter what though, whenever you logon to the Matrix you have a Persona.
AR is slightly viewed like today on 2d screen or in a window in your retina or as an overlay to the area you are in, while VR is just that.
I think many fall into the trap of thinking that AR anchors your location based on your physical location, but nothing actually stops you from surfing the matrix without VR.
If Tom Bradyís a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

Marcus

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« Reply #27 on: (12:26:42/12-02-18) »
Marcus, Kiirnodel's last post illuminated something for me that maybe explains why you have trouble accepting what everyone is saying:

Quote
Remember, unless something is being done to specifically augment the matrix, it isn't a 100% 1-for-1 representation of the world around you.

The discussion spiralled out from my saying that someone could attend a meet with Tanaka-san in AR, and (my understanding of) the foundation of your complaint with my claim has been basically "then why don't we see descriptions of AR personas flying around in the corpus of area descriptions".

Let's back things all the way up to my claim in the SRM thread that you can attend the meet with Tanaka-san virtually, in AR.

All things being "normal", ok you're right in that visiting a remote host in the matrix doesn't work as a direct matrix analogue for Astral Projection.  If a matrix user in Seattle wants to access the host for a Neo-Tokyo business, his persona doesn't appear to people in Neo-Tokyo... the host he's accessing is simply perceptible to him across the matrix in Seattle.

But that's not what I was referring to.  I was referring to the examples of people's matrix avatars (both AR and VR) interacting with people in contexts such as those described for Dante's Inferno and the Neo-Tokyo business downtown... the key thing that makes it work is both the "ghost" and the perceiver must be logged into that same host that provides the functionality for the ghost to see a 1 for 1 digital rendering of the physical world and for people physically present to see the persona interacting with that rendering.

So yes, technically, when I said "you can just AR ghost to the meet with Tanaka-san" that was including an unstated but I thought understood provision that "so long as you, Tanaka-san, and the rest of the team all are logged in to a host that permits such an interaction".  That's not a reasonable assumption for meets in places like a burned out warehouse, but it is (imo) fairly so in the kinds of places you meet in the Neo-Tokyo SRM campaign.

But the key thing is, since you can't see across a Host's matrix event horizon (those inside a host can't see icons outside the host, and those outside a host can't see icons inside the host) THAT's why you don't see descriptions of matrix personas (AR or otherwise) zooming around the AR landscape in the corpus of canon.
Well clearly I lose on this one. So add AR description to the errata list.

But leaving that ridiculous debate aside,

I'll be sure to keep your opinion in mind Michael.

As to the other Meta-data exists now, just b/c a neural network can do something, doesn't actually mean it can explain how it did it. Fake IDs are going to continue to work, sure over time good enough scripts will sort the the ID into similar categories, but that's the advantage of large populations, you share those categories with millions of others. Now in a world with true AI, they can probably do better. But without specifically looking very deeply i doubt they could reduce it to a useful number of possibilities, inside a actionable time frame. How actually capable G.O.D. is, is left up to the GM, i'm sure that could be used as a basis for tracking a truly skilled hacker should they ever really tick someone off, but that someone would probably have to be like Lofwyr.

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Reaver

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« Reply #28 on: (14:20:51/12-02-18) »
The other side of the coin too is just how much data there is out there. 

If ISP is right (haven't read kill Code yet, so I will take him at his word) and a Persona is made up of Brain Waves, GPS, sugar and spice and everything nice, so is everyone elses'. That's a LOT of users to sift through. Add in that all devices everything are storing data constantly... well, things get lost under the flow and may never be actionable on.

Else, the Shadow community could be in for a wake up call as every runner everywhere gets nabbed due to "brain wave convergence"...
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Marcus

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« Reply #29 on: (14:54:03/12-02-18) »
After some quick googling Research into this does suggest brainwave patterns may well be unique to each individual. But they are still just electrical signals as far as the machine is concerned, and as such could easily be adjusted via filter or spoofed to whatever recording method is used. If it looks likely G.O.D. was about making brain pattern library, I'm sure the community could easily adept to foil it.
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