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Does a matrix user in the AR user mode have a Persona?"

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« on: (19:06:47/11-30-18) »
So SSRD, does you persona specialization on Cyber Combat count when attack someone in AR?

Uh, yes?  If you perform a Matrix action in AR it works exactly the same as in VR (excepting of course the potential +2 dice for Hot Sim...)
 
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I don't agree that AR is in the matrix, it's meat world primary it's simple augmented by the matrix technologies.

Well, not to get all hostile but you're simply wrong.  There are tons of examples of AR being a mode of using "the Matrix".  Just as a single example off the top of my head:
You get a flat +2 bonus to technical skills when in AR due to being able to access the matrix for blueprints/schematics.

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We don't start runs with Persona descriptions we start runs with Character descriptions. That's consistent across the game unless someone is only there via the matrix. Only then do we get a Persona description.

Well, A) that sounds like a player/group preference.  B) Usually people's personas are just what they physically look like anyway, as described in the quote I made upthread.


Actually, Jayde Moon (or another mod) maybe we should break the "Is AR 'The Matrix'" discussion out into the rules thread?  This has gotten way off SRM-relevance.
« Last Edit: (22:08:25/11-30-18) by AJCarrington »

Marcus

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« Reply #1 on: (19:18:33/11-30-18) »
I agree this should be broken off.
Accessing something implies your not in something SSDR. So as far as I can tell your own statement supports my position.

It's not a preference, it's how the game is run. We have lots of cannon example, fluff examples, how to run examples. That is simply a fact SSDR, it's not an opinion, it's not wishie washy. All of them go the way I stated. They don't go if your character in AR describe all character with active personas.
« Last Edit: (19:20:25/11-30-18) by Marcus »
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: (20:05:56/11-30-18) »
For the purposes of the for-SRM discussion, can we agree that a wheelchair-bound paraplegic runner has reasonable opportunity show up in "the matrix" (without having to argue about whether that runner may be in AR or must be in VR) and be perceived by everyone else present who ARE using the AR matrix mode during many/most meets with Tanaka-san?  (as described for places like Neo-Tokyo stores on pg 232 and Dante's Inferno on pg 220)

For the potentially split-out "Is AR 'the matrix'" line of discussion:

The description of user modes of the matrix (pg 229) makes clear that AR is just one of three modes of using the matrix. (the other two being Cold Sim VR and Hot Sim VR).  There's nothing in that entire section to support the argument that a Persona only forms in the two VR modes. In fact the gist of the section makes clear that the matrix rules work exactly the same no matter which mode you're in, barring the specific examples of how they don't.
« Last Edit: (20:18:33/11-30-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

Marcus

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« Reply #3 on: (20:27:04/11-30-18) »
Cold sim VR is still going into VR there for creating a persona as I understand it. Which is not the same as AR.

The rest we can carry on in the other thread.
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Marcus

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« Reply #4 on: (20:44:51/11-30-18) »
Dang it, Please take this to other thread SSDR. I think both agree we are way off topic here.
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #5 on: (22:44:22/11-30-18) »
I posted earlier, but I think it was removed when things got re-integrated?



First, some definitions (from the glossary of terms at the start of the Matrix chapter [pg. 215]):

avatar: The icon of a persona.
persona: A user, agent, or other autonomous or semi-autonomous
icon in the Matrix.

Personas are defined long before they get into device modes. Personas are the combination of the user and the device they are using to connect to the Matrix. When you connect to the Matrix, you form your persona on whichever device you are using (f.e. commlink or cyberdeck). If you are connected to the Matrix, you are represented by your persona regardless of whether or not you are VR.

Check out the description of Personas on page 218 again and then look at the run-down of user modes on 229. Both of them just refer to users "being on the matrix" it never mentions forming the persona as part of being VR specifically. In fact, the description of AR includes mention of being able to control your persona. Last sentence of first paragraph under Augmented Reality.

TL;DR: No matter what device mode (AR/VR) you are using, you have a Persona.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #6 on: (22:46:08/11-30-18) »
Yeah the "Do you have a Persona in AR" discussion got moved.

(the thread titles are all wonky, I've been manually editing my replies to keep the threads distinct.. they technically still both have the same thread title)


Dammit I've been replying in the restored SRM discussion.  Gonna go over there and clean my posts out of that thread.
« Last Edit: (22:53:21/11-30-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #7 on: (22:57:35/11-30-18) »
Ok for THIS thread, rather than re-posting my wall of texts... I'll summarize:

AR is a Matrix User Mode just like Cold Sim VR and Hot Sim VR are.  They're all equally "in" the matrix.

AR allows you to do everything you can do in VR (with the sole exception of using your rigger cyberware to Jump Into a vehicle/drone)

AR suffers Convergence by virtue of not being excepted from it.  And VR has its own special effect, if you're using it at the moment of Convergence, which is an indirect but unmistakeable confirmation that you can be in AR and suffer Convergence.

All of these things, plus of course what Kiirnodel said, support the stance that "Yes, you DO have a Persona in AR".
« Last Edit: (23:04:26/11-30-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

Marcus

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« Reply #8 on: (23:18:11/11-30-18) »
You can take the physical action as well, which you can't do in VR (when you're in the maxtrix.) I could make a list of possible physical action you cam take, and it will be a much longer then your list, but as I am not impressed a list I don't think you will be ether.

But, yes I continue to believe your not in the matrix.

Your device icon becomes a persona when you inter VR, and initiative becomes MATRIX initiative.

You have read the same examples as I have, so you think all the main book and decking book examples are wrong?
That seems very hard for me to believe.

Your argument would make qualities like Matrix famous make no sense, if you could AR up and display your persona, it would be child's play to convince anyone you were who you said you were. So how does that quality possible work under your system?

As to your Convergence argument, it can still occur, and your device can reboot, though it pretty meaningless as odds are over whelming that your comm-link suffering 12 matrix damage will be bricked, but you don't take any damage, which is clearly specified. Those rules were written before the matrix setup was fully codified, it was probably easier for whoever wrote it not go into great detail, and in the face off all the evidence to contrary, I don't find it anyway convincing.

In point of fact, Most people do not make their persona look like them, most use pre-programmed ones like an mmo avatar, it's discussed in the matrix book, along with super custom ones that do look like you or more accurately very artistically enhanced version of you. Or something completely different angels or stuff like that. Just look at the good old slamo his persona appearance has been famous for several editions.

So no in the face of every run introduction, never including Persona descriptions including several people noted to be using AR, literally dozens of mods I continue see no reason to believe it at all.

So now from your point of view All the mods are wrong, and all the book examples are wrong. Isn't it simply easier to except that your mistaken and everything else is correct?

Stupid thread confusion.
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Marcus

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« Reply #9 on: (23:22:54/11-30-18) »
TL;DR: No matter what device mode (AR/VR) you are using, you have a Persona.

Then how do you explain it never being described that way across all of Cannon Kiir?
It's way easier to accept that Persona are formed when you jump in, to suddenly have every introduction scene be wrong.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #10 on: (23:33:38/11-30-18) »
I fail to see how or why the ability to take physical actions in AR or the inability to do the same in VR has any bearing on whether or not AR is "in" the matrix.  If a magician is using Astral Perception instead of Projection, he's kind of using "both worlds" at once.  Same principle for AR... you're both "in" the Matrix and the Real World simultaneously.

Your device icon does NOT only become your persona when you enter VR.  The exact quote:

Quote
The fact that the device has a user overrides the device’s
normal icon status, turning it into a persona.

A commlink/cyberdeck/rcc ceases being a device and becomes a persona icon when it has a user.  AR is a valid user mode.  You have a persona when using the device to access the Matrix in AR.  This is inarguable, we don't even have to argue over whether AR is "in" the matrix as the device turns into a persona icon when it has a USER.  Not when the user "enters" the matrix, however we disagree about what that means.

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As to your Convergence argument, it can still occur, and your device can reboot, though it pretty meaningless as odds are over whelming that your comm-link suffering 12 matrix damage will be bricked, but you don't take any damage, which is clearly specified. Those rules were written before the matrix setup was fully codified, it was probably easier for whoever wrote it not go into great detail, and in the face off all the evidence to contrary, I don't find it anyway convincing.

But it doesn't say your device reboots.  It quite explicitly says your persona reboots.

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So now from your point of view All the mods are wrong, and all the book examples are wrong. Isn't it simply easier to except that your mistaken and everything else is correct?

Like what.  Cite me something.  I cited you all kinds of things like devices run your persona icon (pg 218), you have to have SOME kind of icon when using the matrix and it has to be a persona if for no other reason there's no other eligible icon type (217), most people DO have their personas look like themselves (218).  To add another one:

Quote from: Augmented Reality Matrix User Mode
Your persona can go anywhere in the Matrix using
this view. You can even enter hosts, although your
icon will appear jerky and slow compared to a VR user
in the same node.

This proves that the cute cyber-ghosting girl you're flirting with at Dantes Inferno (pg 220) or in a Neo-Tokyo shopping store (232) can be using the AR user mode.  Her persona would just be jerkier and more artificial than if she were using the VR user mode.

I'm not saying "all the mods and books are wrong"  I'm citing the core rulebook to you.  Cite me something that supports what you're saying, if you can.  What, exactly, conflicts with what I'm telling you? What is your icon when using AR, if not a persona?
« Last Edit: (23:49:54/11-30-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #11 on: (23:50:53/11-30-18) »
SSDR beat me to the punch on quoting the description in AR mode. It explicitly calls out how you can still control your persona while in AR mode.

Then how do you explain it never being described that way across all of Cannon Kiir?
It's way easier to accept that Persona are formed when you jump in, to suddenly have every introduction scene be wrong.

Because introduction "blurbs" don't include every angle that can be described. I can't think of an example of introduction scenes that include what things look like in the Astral either.


A "user" on the matrix is represented by a persona (pg 216). If you are connected to the matrix, you are a user, plain and simple. I can't think of anything that contradicts that.
« Last Edit: (23:53:28/11-30-18) by Kiirnodel »

Marcus

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« Reply #12 on: (01:44:27/12-01-18) »
If you review the section where is defined in core (page 221) No where does it discuss seeing persona, it goes on AROs for two pages, but no one mention of personas. In-fact it talked about glowing auras around friend making the various colors as they relate to you but nothing al all talks about personas, ether yours or anyone elses.

I can cut and paste in the whole section if you like. It seems very odd that if everyone has persona, which should be visable in AR that it's not all discussed in the section specifically addressing what you see.

A persona is more or less what it sounds like: a person
in the Matrix. A persona is the combination of a user
and a device that gets the user onto the Matrix. The
fact that the device has a user overrides the device’s
normal icon status, turning it into a persona. A persona
is usually based on a commlink, cyberdeck, or rigged
vehicle or drone, although technomancers are a sort of
device-less persona.

It is equally valid to interpret this as only as VR. As all device and ability discussed involved full VR and it doesn't specifically reference AR anywhere in here. In point of fact Rigged vehicle implies full VR.




PANs
Most individuals have multiple electronic devices
on them at once, and having icons for each one show
up would provide too much visual clutter in the Matrix.
Often, what shows up instead is an icon representing an
individual’s personal area network. This icon often looks
similar to the physical device that serves as master for the
network, such as a commlink, but individuals will sometimes
choose a design or logo that means something
to them (such as sports team logos, Concrete Dreams
album covers, or corporate designs). Some devices are
not merged into the single PAN icon; if an individual is
carrying a wireless-enabled gun—or any other wireless
device that might kill you—it will show up separately so
that it can be identified rapidly. Unless, of course, the
user has gone to the trouble to hide that icon, but that’ll
be covered later.

If your correct and any time you connect to a device that connects you to the matrix your Commlink becomes a persona, and there for not a device icon. So if is a device icon it not a persona.  So a commlink in its normal function mode is not a persona. So ether the interpretation that it's AR persona is wrong, a commlink doesn't connect to the matrix, or this section is wrong.

It's also worth noting, concerning convergence when the core was released it wasn't possible to converge on commlink.  Without some additional hardware released in DT a lot matrix action were actually impossible.  You need dongles to really make  convergence on commlink actually possible, as you can't actually take those matrix action without the attack and sleaze matrix attributes.
(I can cut and paste the section if you want, but it's true and I don't feel like wasting the space.)


ONLINE FAME
COST: 4 KARMA
Congratulations, you’re famous! Well, sort of. You are
only famous as a Matrix persona. Maybe you’re a famous
blogger, an online gaming hero, or a cyberpunk
roleplaying-game freelance author (be still your beating
heart). People know your icon and your signature,
but even your most ardent fan wouldn’t recognize you
if they passed you in the street on a brightly lit day. Further,
none would actually believe you if you tried to tell
them (quite the opposite, in fact). You gain +2 dice to
your Social tests and +2 dice to your Social Limit when
interacting with someone who knows you, but only
when you interact with them via the Matrix. Characters
who see your icon are able to identify you with a successful
Intuition + Logic (2) Test.
Any character who is able to see both your icon and
your physical self is thrown into a conflict. Either they will
believe you are truly him, or they will refuse to believe
and think you are trying to impersonate, erm, yourself.
If they believe you, your bonus becomes +3 on Social
Tests and Social Limit toward your ecstatic fan, which
now applies to all interactions, not just Matrix ones.
However, if they do not believe you, you suffer –4
to all Social interactions. In addition, the character may
outright attack you or call the police to report you.
To determine a character’s reaction, the gamemaster
may roll a single D6. On a roll of 5 or 6, the character
believes you. On any other roll, the character does not.

So how do they possibly disbelieve you? If what you're saying is true.

DT 66
Persona Firmware: With two packs of parts, you can
add the ability to run a persona to a device. If the device
already has this capability, you can’t add it again.

So not ALL device that connect to the matrix have the ability inherently.


DT 176
AUGMENTED REALITY
Augmented reality mashes together the Matrix run with
the physicality of the traditional run. Noise, or simply
an overwhelming firewall, can prevent a hacker from
accessing a secure system from a safe distance. The
good ol’ days of hackers hiding away from the action
alone in the Matrix are over. To be successful, hackers
may need to get personally involved in the run with
their fellow shadowrunners. They must keep an eye on
the happenings in meatspace and cyberspace, sometimes
seeing an overlay of both realities at once. This
technique requires that the gamemaster keep close
track of both scenarios and feed stimuli to the player in
real-time. Here are a couple of tips for gamemasters to
get the most out of this method into their games:
• Rolling Tests: Gamemasters should intersperse
the hacker’s tests with those of the other players
so as not to break up the gameplay between the
two groups. During Combat Turns, characters
are limited by their actions and the pacing of
the scenario. A hacker has to monitor the Matrix
while also making certain a security guard
doesn’t pop a cap in her ass.
• Hacking During Combat: Make certain that the
scenario includes areas that hacking can directly
affect. If the team is squaring off against security
and a call for reinforcements goes out, the hacker
may be able to delay the message or possibly
reroute it. Hackers can seal entrances, jam
monitoring equipment, open locks, and disrupt
communications.
• Bricking: A hacker with enough skill can brick
enemy gear, tap into their commlinks, and generally
make their lives miserable.

This was considerably more compact but notice it also doesn't mention persona, anywhere.


In summary All section addressing AR do NOT address persona's so nothing in the core or any hacking book suggest you see them in AR at all. In fact the discussion of seeing people suggests you see something totally different. Next It's possible to read you quoted section specifily from the view of VR only, and the language rigger suggest it requires VR. So i'm saying again, do you think more likely that all introduction are wrong, and all section on AR are wrong, and example are wrong, or do you think it's much more likely as is implied repeatedly that Persona only occur in VR?

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DigitalZombie

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« Reply #13 on: (01:55:13/12-01-18) »
Didnt read the original thread, but I agree with SSDR and Kiir.

As an astrally perceiving mage is both on the astral and in the meat world at the same time, he would be using his meat initiative. So would a matrix user in AR be on the matrix and in the meat world be using his meat initiative.

Maybe it would be easier to look at the matrix user as a technomancer.
The technomancer can do cybercombat in AR, you can attack him in AR and if he gets converged its gonna hurt. And he would use his physically initiative all along.

The astrally perceiving mage can do astral combat, and mana bolts, astral beings can attack him back, and he would be using his physical initative as well.

That said, there are many oddities regarding the matrix. Example kill code specifically mentions that the user is made from his unique brain waves etc.... but DNI isnt really required for the matrix. You could easily enough access the matrix from your commlink - with no trodes or anything.. or even a laptop if you are crazy old school, so how would the matrix get a hold of your unique brainwaves then? 

Edit: spelling, and Marcus posted while I was writing this, he has some solid points. I'll go read the original thread for more info.
« Last Edit: (02:02:03/12-01-18) by DigitalZombie »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #14 on: (02:20:52/12-01-18) »
Alright Marcus.  You're arguing negatives and opinion.

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...No where does it discuss seeing persona...

They DO in fact have examples of seeing personas.  Look at the descriptions, plural, where matrix users can remotely interact with people at Dante's Inferno and in Neo-Tokyo's shopping districts (pages 220 and 232).  You. Can. See. Personas.  Furthermore, the explanation of the Augmented Reality User mode not only explicitly says you have a persona, it also says you can go do those "ghosting" visits to Dante's Inferno and Neo-Tokyo in AR mode. VR mode is not necessary for this.

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...It is equally valid to interpret this as only as VR. As all device and ability discussed involved full VR and it doesn't specifically reference AR anywhere in here. In point of fact Rigged vehicle implies full VR.

No, it flatly isn't equally valid.  There are three ways to "use" the matrix: AR, Cold Sim VR, and Hot Sim VR.  When a matrix user's icon is said to be a persona, it equally applies to all three ways to be a matrix user.  If you're going to argue that it doesn't apply to the AR user mode, you must provide citation saying so.

For example, the Jump Into Rigged Device matrix action.  Yes, that requires one of the two VR user modes.  Literally no other matrix action states this requirement.  You can't extend that one action's VR requirement beyond that one action.

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If your correct and any time you connect to a device that connects you to the matrix your Commlink becomes a persona, and there for not a device icon. So if is a device icon it not a persona.  So a commlink in its normal function mode is not a persona. So ether the interpretation that it's AR persona is wrong, a commlink doesn't connect to the matrix, or this section is wrong.

If someone's using a commlink, it's not a device.  If someone's using it to access the matrix (such as making a commcall via the Send Message matrix action) then it has a user and it is a persona icon.  See not just the repeatedly cited text on pg 218 but also the quote on pg 235: "When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon, so it’s basically gone from the Matrix until the persona jacks out." (bolded for emphasis) That doesn't say "but only in VR".

Again pg 229 also confirms explicitly that you have a persona in while in AR.

Quote
It's also worth noting, concerning convergence when the core was released it wasn't possible to converge on commlink.

Technically yes OS only results from Attack and Sleaze actions, which commlinks normally don't have the capability to perform.  But there are ways to get them even without the dongles from DT.  Regardless of how you managed to get to 40 OS, your persona suffers convergence no matter what hardware you're using AND no matter what matrix user mode you're using.

Quote
Online Fame....
...Any character who is able to see both your icon and
your physical self is thrown into a conflict...

How is anyone going to see both your icon and your physical self if your persona isn't visible in AR?

Quote
DT 66
Persona Firmware: With two packs of parts, you can
add the ability to run a persona to a device. If the device
already has this capability, you can’t add it again.

So not ALL device that connect to the matrix have the ability inherently.

Not sure what you're getting at here.  So you put persona firmware in your gun, and run your persona off your gun instead of a commlink.  Ok, your persona is still visible in AR (or not, as you're arguing), either way.

Quote
Data Trail's entry on AR:
....
This was considerably more compact but notice it also doesn't mention persona, anywhere.

Maybe because the core rulebook already did, both explicitly and implicitly say you have a persona in AR?

Quote
So i'm saying again, do you think more likely that all introduction are wrong, and all section on AR are wrong, and example are wrong, or do you think it's much more likely as is implied repeatedly that Persona only occur in VR?

Ok, show me some citation.  If you're right and Personas only appear in VR, then it should say that somewhere.  Cite it.  I've cited examples that say in no uncertain terms that AR users do have personas.  Don't tell me I'm wrong.  Don't tell me the rules I'm citing are wrong.  If this is truly something akin to the "can you dodge fireballs" situation where some rules HAVE to be wrong due to direct contradiction, you should be able to at least cite any rules that in contradiction with what I cited.  Show me a quote, if you can find one, that says personas only are in VR or are never in AR.  An omission or failure to reiterate is not a contradiction.

And while you're at it, cite what users' icons are in AR if they're not personas.  That cute AR girl (you hope!) you're flirting with in Dante's or Neo-Tokyo: What IS her icon if not a Persona?



« Last Edit: (02:59:01/12-01-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »