NEWS

Grey Cyberware ??

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Marcus

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« Reply #30 on: (19:11:44/11-30-18) »
It's ok for it just to be an opinion SSDR. It's ok that we won't all agree. Ever game will always be a little different. It's one the fundamental realities with RPGs from the very beginning of D&D. Your game's Seattle will never be the same as my games Seattle, and I'm sure both of ours will be different from's Hobb's Seattle.   I'm sure when i read ever piece of ware's description i'll probably find a couple that I will be naa that won't work for grey. If or when that happens I'll say so, and say why I ruled that way, and if it's an issue we can discuss it.

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PiXeL01

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« Reply #31 on: (19:29:23/11-30-18) »
Greyware might not make it into Missions because of the “obvious” part. There would need to be a massive list as to what can be considered “obvious” because otherwise it’ll be GM fiat.

As it stands (or at least my understanding is) only cyberware qualify no matter what. Also the implant need to either be obvious (if this is to be taken literal then only cyberlimbs qualify here) with a Visual component or have a wireless bonus which is stripped no matter what.
As for the visual component what that could be is something that cannot be hidden but up to GM/player I guess. The rundown I saw earlier could cover some, but no matter what I would not allow surgeon scars to be that component. Cords running under skin, sure, chrome plates which aren’t covered by skin etc.

With the exception of NPCs these implants will never make it into Mirror Shade games, while Pink Mohawk players rejoice.

Greyware sounds like a 30 year retrofashion backblast which is kind of awesome imho.


Marcus

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« Reply #32 on: (19:53:26/11-30-18) »
I don't think anyone is gonna cry if grey ware doesn't make it to missions. Or even if is only applicable to very short list of items. Limbs, eyes, and ears. But I do agree it is a Retro-fashion backblast and I am all for it.
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #33 on: (03:08:44/12-01-18) »
@Marcus

The point is that the author just clarified that only ware with a "wireless bonus" and not just wireless functionality qualifies. The three (four) pieces I listed are the only ones in core that fullfill those criteria.
And it doesn't help to say, that you could implant gear with wireless capabilities, because those implants are independent pieces of cyberware and most of them aren't obvious i.e. break the skin.

In this case RAW is a lot more permissive than RAI.
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Marcus

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« Reply #34 on: (13:26:15/12-02-18) »
@Marcus

The point is that the author just clarified that only ware with a "wireless bonus" and not just wireless functionality qualifies. The three (four) pieces I listed are the only ones in core that fullfill those criteria.
And it doesn't help to say, that you could implant gear with wireless capabilities, because those implants are independent pieces of cyberware and most of them aren't obvious i.e. break the skin.

In this case RAW is a lot more permissive than RAI.

That's a perfectly fair point Jack. I don't have any issue with it. I agree there's lots of possible interpretations of "obvious" arguing about them isn't going take us anywhere useful.  We have a tautology present by the author if the issue comes up at a table i'm running, I will compare the piece of ware to that and make my choice.  I think every GM should do the same. For missions ether let Opti give us the exact list he had in mind, make up a list the Dev are comfortable with, or just bane it. With the armor add on, I don't think this hugely critical.
« Last Edit: (13:29:55/12-02-18) by Marcus »
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Ixal

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« Reply #35 on: (09:32:48/12-03-18) »
Going away from the exact wording for a bit, imo the intention is pretty clear.
To make a cyberware grey you need to have a disadvantage because of it. Either because the cyberware is not hidden anymore or because you lose a wireless bonus. If both does not apply then it can't be grey because there is no free lunch...

« Reply #36 on: (13:15:33/12-03-18) »
That's kinda the jist I see working as a limitation envisioned by the RAI but made different in practice by the RAW:

Greyware can be any cyberware (not what was RAI) but any cyberware that IS greyware must be both obvious and lack all wireless functionality (my interpretation of the RAW)

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #37 on: (17:39:01/12-03-18) »
Quote p. 158:
*GreyWare always counts as obvious cyberware when applicable and never provides wireless bonuses. If a piece of cyberware cannot be obvious and has no wireless component, it cannot be taken as GreyWare. Further, in addition to Magic lost due to decreased Essence, Awakened characters lose an additional point of Magic, as well as a one-point reduction in their maximum Magic, per item of GreyWare installed.

Assuming this quote is correct (I don't have the book), it is pretty clearly laid out that there exists some cyberware that cannot be Grey Cyberware. Based on the sentence I underlined it definitely applies to cyber that is neither obvious nor wireless. If it is neither, it definitely isn't grey. The debate is whether that is a boolean "and" or  not.

IF (NOT Obvious AND NOT Wireless) THEN NOT Grey

To me, it reads as: the cyberware must either have a wireless component or be obvious in order to qualify for Grey. The author chiming in that it must be both was surprising to me, because as has already been pointed out, that potentially means that very little cyber would actually qualify (assuming by wireless component we mean has a wireless bonus).
« Last Edit: (17:41:00/12-03-18) by Kiirnodel »

« Reply #38 on: (17:53:55/12-03-18) »
"Obvious" is has a serious problem if meant to be a criterion for what qualifies for greyware (as opposed to what all greyware must be, as I prefer to read it.)

List a piece of cyberware that you say cannot be obvious, and I'll respond with a description of a NPC where that cyberware is obvious.

Bone lacing? You can see a hexogonal pattern of metal fused to his skull just beneath the skin of his forehead.

Wireless reflexes? You can see shiny chrome jutting up along her spine from the collar of her jacket right up into the base of her skull.

Internal Air tank?  You see a suspicious bulge under his shirt right where a pistol might be concealed, but seeing your attention he sighs and lifts his shirt, displaying a steampunk style arrangement of tubes going between into his ribcage and a retro-stylish dial indicating some kind of gas supply..


etc.  Any cyberware is potentially obvious if you just describe it as such.

Ixal

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« Reply #39 on: (18:49:41/12-03-18) »
The only category of cyberware where obvious is a official keyword I could find is cyberlimbs.
So if you accept that limitation greyware can only be used for obvious cyberlimbs or 'ware with a wireless bonus (which gets removed).

Finstersang

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« Reply #40 on: (09:02:41/12-07-18) »
The only category of cyberware where obvious is a official keyword I could find is cyberlimbs.
So if you accept that limitation greyware can only be used for obvious cyberlimbs or 'ware with a wireless bonus (which gets removed).

And, if you interpret the RAW as both conditions having to apply, you can`t even take it for them, since Cyberlimbs don`t have a wireless bonus per default  ::)

If (what I previously assumed) the point of greyware was to encourage players to take obvious "retro-style" Cyberware instead of non-obvious (internal or covert) Chrome, restricting it to cyber that is obvious per se totally defeats the purpose. In fact, it would have made more sense restrict it to cyber that is usually not obvious, like Wireless Reflexes or Cybereyes. The fluff in Chrome Flesh mentioned a new augmentation trend of "Exoware" that goes in the same direction. I actually liked this idea so much that I already made some houserules to reward overly-obvious Chrome, so maybe I am a bit biased in my initial interpretation of the greyware crunch.

However, if it is - by the fabled will of the original writer - really supposed to be RAI that Greyware can only be chosen for obvious Cyberware, then this means that greyware is not really rewarding players for making their chrome obvious, but for losing wireless bonuses. Which would be less of a cool idea IMO, but hell, why not? Maybe the "Exoware" trend is further elaborated on in a second augmentation supplement instead?  ???

And then there is the question on how to interpret the AND/OR relation between both conditions and the fact that Greyware is, in fact, more expensive than Alphaware and not cheaper as advertised in the fluff. Which might be explained by assuming that the original writer - missed the fact that Alphaware in SR5 has a cost modifier of 1,2 and not 2,0 like in SR4.

Let`s face it: Greyware is yet another typical SR5 crunchbomb where the general idea may (or may not) have been really good, but the RAW fails to reflect it. This is what should be done now, instead of pointlessly arguing around in the forum or dashing of ill-considered clarification attempts that further drives the whole thing in the ground:

  • Determine what the actual "point" of greyware is supposed to be.
  • Determine the Interpretation of the RAW fits that vision in the best possible way. F.i., if greyware is mainly supposed to reward making cyberware obvious, restricting it to cyber that already is obvious is - obviously - not the right way to go. There is no shame in backpedaling here  ;)
  • Pass it on to errata.

To take the edge off: I`d love to more of these "excentric" cyberware grades in the future! What about ware that, instead of not offering wireless bonuses, treats every bonus as a wireless bonus (and offers none when jammed)? Or plagiarized ware, which is cheaper, but always illegal because it breaks copyright law? Or rules for renting/leasing ware that getś tracked by the original owner and taken away if you fail to pay up (Repo Men, anyone?  ;D)...   
« Last Edit: (10:31:02/12-07-18) by Finstersang »
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