NEWS

Why do dragons have this fearsome reputation?

  • 77 Replies
  • 5349 Views

Ixal

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 110
« Reply #60 on: (09:05:32/12-03-18) »
I once had Shadowrun dragons explained to me thus:
snip...
For being so superior dragons, especially normal ones, do get smacked around a lot.

Ghost Rigger

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
« Reply #61 on: (10:05:19/12-03-18) »
Adults get smacked around a lot too. Then they get back up and carry on, whereas a toddler in the same situation would, if not dead or unconscious, be crying loudly for its mommy. What point are you trying to get at? That because dragons aren't effortlessly winning at everything forever, you shouldn't be afraid of them? Because remember, you're the toddler in this metaphor. It doesn't matter if a particular adult is considered a loser and a failure by his peers. It doesn't matter if he's been smacked around a lot recently. He can still mentally and physically dunk on you all day, every day. If he wants to do something to you, only another adult can stop him. And did you miss my little anecdote about Lung?
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide

Ixal

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 110
« Reply #62 on: (13:12:44/12-03-18) »
Adults get smacked around a lot too. Then they get back up and carry on, whereas a toddler in the same situation would, if not dead or unconscious, be crying loudly for its mommy. What point are you trying to get at? That because dragons aren't effortlessly winning at everything forever, you shouldn't be afraid of them? Because remember, you're the toddler in this metaphor. It doesn't matter if a particular adult is considered a loser and a failure by his peers. It doesn't matter if he's been smacked around a lot recently. He can still mentally and physically dunk on you all day, every day. If he wants to do something to you, only another adult can stop him. And did you miss my little anecdote about Lung?

Well lets wait for Ditzelbachen or all the unnamed dragons we only hear about when Jackpoint talks about how this or that person has killed a dragon or when another dragonkilling group makes its appearance get back up again...

And yes, for beings which are so superior as you make them out to be, or at least cunning and dangerous enough for there to be a special warning given to shadowrunners to not deal with them I would suspect them to succeed more than they currently do.
It would be nice if the lore would match up, meaning that if you want to continue to use the "Never deal with a dragon" saying and have dealing with a dragon actually raise notoriety as the rules suggest, that there be an actual in game lore reason as for why dragons are so fearsome apart from nostalgia. Because in my opinion in the last few years of the metaplot dragons were not displayed as cunning and dangerous opponents, only defied at great costs, but as walking trophies which are defeated (either directly killed or their plans foiled) whenever some other character needs to be made look dangerous or badass. And that happened so often that by now dragons seem to be as dangerous as Saturday morning cartoon villains which are defeated at the end of every episode.


No, I did not miss your anecdote, but instead of Lung the exact same scenario could have happened with a metahuman triad leader, yet we do not have a "Never deal with the triads" saying.

Ghost Rigger

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
« Reply #63 on: (16:11:17/12-03-18) »
And yes, for beings which are so superior as you make them out to be, or at least cunning and dangerous enough for there to be a special warning given to shadowrunners to not deal with them I would suspect them to succeed more than they currently do.
Do I really need to regurgitate all the explanations that have already been given to you? Dragons succeed all the time. They succeed in private affairs that take place in the shadows, as well as more public ones. They succeed so often that it isn't even worth mentioning most of the time. 'Man bites dog' is front page news, 'dog bites man' is third page news, and 'dog bites chew toy' isn't news at all.

Quote
It would be nice if the lore would match up, meaning that if you want to continue to use the "Never deal with a dragon" saying and have dealing with a dragon actually raise notoriety as the rules suggest, that there be an actual in game lore reason as for why dragons are so fearsome apart from nostalgia.
Notoriety has nothing to do with it. Dealing with a dragon is tantamount to entering a white, unmarked van because some creepy-looking guy told you there was free candy inside; you're going to get fucked. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for you to grasp.

Quote
Because in my opinion in the last few years of the metaplot
Newsflash: there's more going on in the world than just the metaplot. Shadowrun is a huge, dynamic world where everyone is always up to something (multiple somethings, even), and you don't get to hear about all of it, period. In fact, you get to hear even less of it when you only pay attention to one plotline. While that one dragon whose name I cannot even be bothered to look up got screwed by the CFD saga, every other great dragon went on advancing their personal agenda and making bank. You know, business as usual.

Quote
No, I did not miss your anecdote, but instead of Lung the exact same scenario could have happened with a metahuman triad leader
Lung's actions were the opposite of what you'd expect from a metahuman Triad leader. Triads are families; they are described as taking care of and standing by their own, whereas some other syndicates have no qualms about disposing of spent assets. A metahuman Triad leader would've told the crew to abandon ship or to allow themselves to be arrested without resistance, promising them good lawyers and that their families would be taken care of if they were imprisoned. Lung killed them all because they had failed him, and this is an individual "described as a reclusive and patient dragon who tends to plan and manipulate things in the shadows, slowly spreading his domain rather than taking aggressive actions." Says a lot about the whole species, doesn't it? Meanwhile, he let the two outsiders responsible for the whole mess, the two who actually tried to sabotage one of his enterprises, get away scot-free because he thought they were cool guys. If you don't understand by now why you don't want to deal with dragons.......well, sorry, but Shadowrun isn't the game for you.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide

neomerlin

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 63
« Reply #64 on: (18:07:27/04-01-19) »
This seems... Kind of silly.

Why should you be afraid of dragons and never deal with them? Why do they have a fearsome reputation? Because if they don't like your face, they will eat you. Or step on you. Or make your terrible face explode with magic beyond your understanding and beyond the greatest initiates achievements. Like, that's reason enough not to get in one's path, isn't it?

"But the megacorps!"

Yeah. Be afraid of the megacorps too. How does that detract from dragons? I mean, the whole point of Shadowrun since 1st edition has been the megacorps always win. The beautiful dystopic irony of the game's premise is we radical, rebellious, social outsider, criminal experts who defy society... Are still working for the corps like good little drones.

The only reason Shadowrunners exist is because they're useful. If the corps decided they no longer need them, they don't even have to send in wet teams to frag 'em, they just need to stop hiring them and Shadowrunners will fade into extinction.

None of this detracts from dragons. None of this detracts from dragons especially because they often have resources and networks comparable to corps. Regardless, intimidation isn't a zero sum game.

"Look at all the dragons metahumanity done kill/beat!"

Cool. Yeah. That's bad news for a dragon's reputation I guess. But "never deal with a dragon" is shadowrunner wisdom and last I checked, no Shadowrunner is Aztechnology. A team of Shadowrunners isn't going to bring down a great dragon any more than they're going to topple a AAA corporation and they're probably not going to bring down a major yak syndicate either.

And? So what? None of this has any baring on the fact that a dragon is equal or greater than these threats and any more threats you name.

If your argument is "dragons are no big deal and not that tough or scary" well that's silly. The dragon can still step on you.

If your argument is "There are other threats beside dragons that people should be afraid of" then... Yeah. Yes there is. That's true. That has always been true. That would be silly to deny.

And?

Marcus

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2494
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #65 on: (18:12:13/04-01-19) »
Ugh Please let this tragic thread Rest in Peace.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

neomerlin

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 63
« Reply #66 on: (18:33:34/04-01-19) »
Ugh Please let this tragic thread Rest in Peace.
Yeah, that's on me. I spotted it, had a read through and misread the last post as being March '19. Oops. I try not to resurrect threads this old in the usual course of things.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • *
  • Posts: 7691
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #67 on: (02:46:59/04-02-19) »
Ugh Please let this tragic thread Rest in Peace.
Yeah, that's on me. I spotted it, had a read through and misread the last post as being March '19. Oops. I try not to resurrect threads this old in the usual course of things.
It makes for a nice April's Fools joke though! Here I was wondering 'urk, now what' and bam, accidental necro.

Remember, people, no resurrection possible in Shadowrun.
CorpSec when an alarm is triggered;: "This is so sad, Alexa play Shoot The Runner"

DeathStrobe

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 856
  • Front Range Free Decker
    • Dethstrobe.com
« Reply #68 on: (23:17:50/04-05-19) »
Honestly, the Secret History board is the one place I think necromancy is really good as it's fun to bring up the old context and add new perspectives on it.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5983
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #69 on: (08:40:25/04-06-19) »
Remember, people, no resurrection possible in Shadowrun.

This is technically not true....


but, what comes back, isn't what died.....
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • *
  • Posts: 7691
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #70 on: (12:52:57/04-06-19) »
Which is why you put a double-tap in it and move on. Preferably with an Ares Barrett 122: 14P/-22AP with a bullseye Semi-Automatic burst.
CorpSec when an alarm is triggered;: "This is so sad, Alexa play Shoot The Runner"

Ixal

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 110
« Reply #71 on: (17:35:42/04-06-19) »


If your argument is "There are other threats beside dragons that people should be afraid of" then... Yeah. Yes there is. That's true. That has always been true. That would be silly to deny.

And?

And yet, dealing with corps, (not even just AAA), organized crime, cults, free spirits, etc. each which are as scary and powerful or even more so when you take average dragons as baseline and not only talk about greats does not carry any negative stigmata with it.

Ghost Rigger

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
« Reply #72 on: (17:52:36/04-06-19) »
This has already been explained to you multiple times, and you still just don't get it. Let's face it: we might as well all be talking to a brick wall in this thread.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide

Ixal

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 110
« Reply #73 on: (18:01:03/04-06-19) »
This has already been explained to you multiple times, and you still just don't get it. Let's face it: we might as well all be talking to a brick wall in this thread.

You are right, you really are a brick wall.
But continue to have your characters live in fear of dragons because they have a lot or resources and can send minions after you and limit yourself to only dealing with corps, organized crime, terrorists, cults, etc. At least they only have access to a lot of resources and can send minions after you. Totally different!

By now "Never deal with a dragon" is a trope, nothing more and most active runners probably don't even know how it came up or what the point is.
« Last Edit: (18:16:17/04-06-19) by Ixal »

Ghost Rigger

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
« Reply #74 on: (18:19:02/04-06-19) »
Nice strawman. I would explain why the scare factor of a dragon is not those resources and minions, but rather how they would use them differently from a megacorp or other group of metahumans, but we both know that wouldn't get anywhere.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide