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Why do dragons have this fearsome reputation?

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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #30 on: (20:14:33/10-13-18) »
Thing is, most (if not all) of the examples given are 'large numbers of humanoids focusing exclusively on a specific project, at which they defeat a great dragon'.  What is repeatedly not said is that those specific projects are far and away not the only iron said great dragon has in the fire -- that when the aforementioned group beats the dragon, the dragon is paying attention to three or five dozen more projects as complicated and important to it as the specific one at whch the aforemention group beats it.  Want to take on the great dragon Sirrurg in combat?  You'd better have massive planning, a huge number of military assets, a couple of immortal advisers in your corner, and you had damn well better achieve the element of surprise.

So sure, beating a Great can be done, with a huge amount of time, effort, dedication, money, blood, toil, sweat, and tears.  But always keep in mind that you're fencing against it in just one of its projects.  To completely destroy a Great Dragon?

... good luck.
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Ixal

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« Reply #31 on: (03:24:58/10-15-18) »
Thing is, most (if not all) of the examples given are 'large numbers of humanoids focusing exclusively on a specific project, at which they defeat a great dragon'.  What is repeatedly not said is that those specific projects are far and away not the only iron said great dragon has in the fire -- that when the aforementioned group beats the dragon, the dragon is paying attention to three or five dozen more projects as complicated and important to it as the specific one at whch the aforemention group beats it.  Want to take on the great dragon Sirrurg in combat?  You'd better have massive planning, a huge number of military assets, a couple of immortal advisers in your corner, and you had damn well better achieve the element of surprise.

So sure, beating a Great can be done, with a huge amount of time, effort, dedication, money, blood, toil, sweat, and tears.  But always keep in mind that you're fencing against it in just one of its projects.  To completely destroy a Great Dragon?

... good luck.

I didn't limit the original post to great dragons.
Oh sure, they are powerful and can destroy nations if they want, but so can any megacorp. Likewise, a megacorp as an entity is as invulnerable to runners as a GD is. Runners might annoy a megacorp, maybe even manage to disrupt one of their plans, but they won't destroy one. And depending on the manager in charge they will be hunter or at least put on notice like what would happen when you show up on the radar of an GD.

And if you go down a level and look at normal dragons there is even less of a difference. Yes, most of them have lots of resources and are hard to kill and have many plans. But this applies to many other groups like organized crime, AA corp or even large policlubs. And a Vory boss can be as vindictive as a dragon can.

A lot of the danger of dealing with dragons is in my eyes overhyped. As seen in the past dragon fail constantly with their plans and dealing with other organizations is as dangerous as dealing with a dragon.
This saying is in my opinion an artefact from the past and doesn't really has any reason to exist in the current Shadowrun except tradition.

Reaver

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« Reply #32 on: (07:08:17/10-15-18) »
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..
...

Just remember:

Be kind. Lofwyr likes his snacks with mustard, so carry as many packets as you can to your meetings....
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

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Longshot23

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« Reply #33 on: (08:47:08/10-15-18) »
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..
...

Just remember:

Be kind. Lofwyr likes his snacks with mustard, so carry as many packets as you can to your meetings....

I thought tomato sauce (ketchup) was Lofwyr's thing . . . .

Magnaric

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« Reply #34 on: (15:24:26/10-15-18) »
One other point, building on what The Wyrm Oroborous said. Dragons are usually working on many different plans and angles simultaneously. So Ixal when you say that dragons' plans fail constantly, I feel like 1) your definition of "constantly" and mine are very different, and b) who's to say how many of their plans have worked perfectly and no one ever knew about it, or at least could prove anything?

I feel like the times we learn about dragons' plans getting thwarted or them failing to accomplish a task, it's directed because that's the one plan that failed. Think about the perfect Shadowrun. Well executed, meticulously planned, and afterwards no one directly or indirectly involved is any the wiser as to what happened. Sure, they might have a piece or two, but they don't know the full scope of who did it, what they did, how, etc.

Dragons are like that but multiplied by many times. The best plans they have are the ones where the various pieces moving about to accomplish it have no idea they're being manipulated.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #35 on: (23:06:42/10-16-18) »
Dragons are like that but multiplied by many times. The best plans they have are the ones where the various pieces moving about to accomplish it have no idea they're being manipulated.
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #36 on: (03:49:43/10-18-18) »
Enh.  At this point, Ixal is not looking for 'Why do dragons have this fearsome reputation,' but rather 'this is why I think dragons don't/shouldn't have fearsome reputations.'  Looking for proof of his viewpoint, and decrying anything offered him.  I mean, he's been offered plenty of examples as to why dragons are feared; his response is pretty much always 'but nyah!', whether that's trying to explain how dragons (adult or great) get 'beaten' all the time, disdaining their overall capacities as being like so many other things in the SR world (such as megacorporations), yadda yadda.

Ixal, you think it's 'legacy', and 'overblown', and whatever.  Fine.  Look at all the arguments you're making against our points -- that other things exist at their level (megacorporations), that dealing with big groups is like dealing with a dragon (organized crime, whatever) -- and, simply put, you're cutting the branch out from under yourself.  What you're saying isn't incorrect; it is correct.  But you keep failing to take the step necessary and go 'oh, yeah, all that 'equivalent of an organization' is resident in one individual'.

So sure: shadowrunners should stay at arm's length from corporations, megacorporations, organized crime families and syndicates, conspiracy groups, all that shite.  Because any of those could do major damage to a shadowrunner, whether in the short or long term.  Oh, and maybe they should stay at arm's length from dragons, because just one dragon is the equivalent of a corporation, megacorporation, organized crime family or syndicate, conspiracy group, and all that shite, and can bring all their equivalent force to bear immediately, instantly, in its current very-present state.

Look at what your argument actually is.  If you don't want to admit that your argument is in favor of dragons having a serious rep, hey, whatever floats your boat; feel free to be one of those people that says black is white, fact is fake, and the reputation of an individual that can functionally ignore any counterattack while tearing apart a 30-story building with only its bare hands is overblown.  Just ... you might consider keeping that to yourself, or maybe to Plan 9's conspiracy boards and the Lunatics 'R' Us chatrooms.  Because any way you slice it, a dragon -- adult or Great -- is a major force to be reckoned with.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #37 on: (11:17:01/10-18-18) »
As a fresh point, I'll throw a meta observation out there:

Dragons were given stats.  Uber NPCs of similar power (the Bottled Demon, Harlequin, etc) are pointedly not given stats.  For the express reason that statting something just invites players to try to kill them.

It might have been a better decision to have never published stats for Dragons and instead just have them do whatever they want, immune to the rules of the game.

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« Reply #38 on: (11:59:49/10-18-18) »
As a fresh point, I'll throw a meta observation out there:

Dragons were given stats.  Uber NPCs of similar power (the Bottled Demon, Harlequin, etc) are pointedly not given stats.  For the express reason that statting something just invites players to try to kill them.

It might have been a better decision to have never published stats for Dragons and instead just have them do whatever they want, immune to the rules of the game.

They tried that. All that happened was an overwhelming cry for them TO stat dragons.....

(Doesn't mean you are wrong though) 
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #39 on: (12:19:45/10-18-18) »
Harlequin has stats. They do state 'Magic 30+' iirc and '30 should be plenty but feel free to increase', but he has stats.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #40 on: (12:29:19/10-18-18) »
Harlequin has stats. They do state 'Magic 30+' iirc and '30 should be plenty but feel free to increase', but he has stats.

He didn't for a good long while. Notably during the course of at least one, and IIRC two campaign packs centered directly on him.  And their sheer ridiculousness probably supports the point anyway that he never should have been given stats.

There are NPCs that are forces of Plot.  Nothing the PCs can ever do will directly defeat them... they can only exploit Plot objectives that in turn foil some aspect of such NPCs schemes.  Or did the PCs actually do exactly what the NPC actually wanted after all?

That's how the (Great) Dragons shoulda/woulda/coulda been handled. Lofwyr and Dunkelzahn never needed stats because if you ever beat them, you weren't playing Shadowrun anymore anyway.
« Last Edit: (12:33:06/10-18-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

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« Reply #41 on: (12:59:15/10-18-18) »
That’s a very old debate within the gaming community. There is inherent argument that if you give something stats it’s “ok” to pcs to beat it. SR has gone both ways at different times under different writers. Though I would say I think 5th has always given stats excepting nanotech plot virus.

In general imo if its’ going to matter to the plot then stats Need to be there.
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Ixal

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« Reply #42 on: (15:16:56/10-18-18) »
Enh.  At this point, Ixal is not looking for 'Why do dragons have this fearsome reputation,' but rather 'this is why I think dragons don't/shouldn't have fearsome reputations.'  Looking for proof of his viewpoint, and decrying anything offered him.  I mean, he's been offered plenty of examples as to why dragons are feared; his response is pretty much always 'but nyah!', whether that's trying to explain how dragons (adult or great) get 'beaten' all the time, disdaining their overall capacities as being like so many other things in the SR world (such as megacorporations), yadda yadda.

Ixal, you think it's 'legacy', and 'overblown', and whatever.  Fine.  Look at all the arguments you're making against our points -- that other things exist at their level (megacorporations), that dealing with big groups is like dealing with a dragon (organized crime, whatever) -- and, simply put, you're cutting the branch out from under yourself.  What you're saying isn't incorrect; it is correct.  But you keep failing to take the step necessary and go 'oh, yeah, all that 'equivalent of an organization' is resident in one individual'.

So sure: shadowrunners should stay at arm's length from corporations, megacorporations, organized crime families and syndicates, conspiracy groups, all that shite.  Because any of those could do major damage to a shadowrunner, whether in the short or long term.  Oh, and maybe they should stay at arm's length from dragons, because just one dragon is the equivalent of a corporation, megacorporation, organized crime family or syndicate, conspiracy group, and all that shite, and can bring all their equivalent force to bear immediately, instantly, in its current very-present state.

Look at what your argument actually is.  If you don't want to admit that your argument is in favor of dragons having a serious rep, hey, whatever floats your boat; feel free to be one of those people that says black is white, fact is fake, and the reputation of an individual that can functionally ignore any counterattack while tearing apart a 30-story building with only its bare hands is overblown.  Just ... you might consider keeping that to yourself, or maybe to Plan 9's conspiracy boards and the Lunatics 'R' Us chatrooms.  Because any way you slice it, a dragon -- adult or Great -- is a major force to be reckoned with.

Any more personal attacks because I don't bow to your wisdom without thinking for myself?
One dragon equivalent to a corporation? What are you smoking? No, a dragon with the resources of a corporation is equal to a corporation.
Sure if you strip everything away a single dragon is much more powerful than a single person. But add money, influence and modern weaponry to the mix and it evens out a lot. Unless you are in the middle of the wilderness where no one cares a dragon can't run rampage to crush its enemies. They are strong but far from invulnerable as the lore, both old and new, and their stats show. They have to work in secret through proxies, the same way any other organization has to. So in the end, despite their more impressive physical and magical attributes, they are most of the time not more dangerous than organized crime or corps. They all hire the same people to deal with problems. It all depends on how many people they know and how much Nuyen they can throw around.
Sure, Great Dragons could get you wherever you are if they wanted to, but they still have to deal with the fallout of that. The same way Villers would have to deal with the fallout when he Thor Shots his enemies like he did with Dankwalther. So again, nothing that Great Dragons alone can do. Their human "equals" have the same kind of power and the same limitations.

So as dragons are not inherently more dangerous than others unless in the very rare cases they can come at you directly (but if you are in a place where this is possible then a corp or syndicate would have no problem to bring in so much firepower unhindered that the result would be the same) maybe they are just better in finding people they want dead?
Well if you look at the recent events that does not seem to be the case. In fact, many things dragons have done in the recent past seemed to end in failure. And not only did many of their plans not work out, many of them got killed in recent years/decades by various factors. Sure they always have multiple plans going, but so has anyone with real power in SR. And the "maybe failure is part of their plan" excuse only works for so long until it loses its effectiveness. From time to time one needs to land a big win for it to continue to work and when was the last time a dragon managed to pull off some impressive win which wasn't immediately thwarted (like when Dunkelzahn blew himself up)?
Oh sure, out of game knowledge mitigates some of those events like knowing the real story behind the "assassination". But Never deal with a dragon is not an out of game saying, but actual in game advice given to fresh runners. Yet what in game reason is there to specifically single out dragons except "Sensei said it to me and I never questioned it, and so I am now telling you"?
As far as I see there is no real reason to fear dealing with a dragon more than dealing with many other people and organizations which usually contract runners.
« Last Edit: (15:24:25/10-18-18) by Ixal »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #43 on: (15:40:37/10-18-18) »
Game stats aside... a primary reason people in-universe fear dealing with dragons is because dragons aren't known (or assumed) to have metahumanity's interests at heart.  Dealing with a Dragon is pretty much the Sixth World equivalent of making Deal with the Devil. 

Corporations and crime cartels will betray when they profit by doing so.  Their motives are understandable and can be reasonably anticipated.  Neither is true of Dragons.  Plus, they just might eat you.
« Last Edit: (15:42:50/10-18-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

Ixal

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« Reply #44 on: (15:41:59/10-18-18) »
Game stats aside... a primary reason people in-universe fear dealing with dragons is because dragons aren't known (or assumed) to have metahumanity's interests at heart.  Dealing with a Dragon is pretty much the Sixth World equivalent of making Deal with the Devil. 

Corporations and crime cartels will betray you for simple profit.  Their motives are understandable and can be reasonably anticipated.  Neither is true of Dragons.  Plus, they just might eat you.

Thats an explanation I can accept. But then many other things, basically everything not metahuman, like spirits of just Nagas would also fall under that.