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6th Edition in 2019?

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Shadowjack

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« Reply #15 on: (20:27:16/07-23-18) »
I would much rather see a "5.5", i.e. not a major change of rules but a clean up of smaller issues, a bit of re-balancing, improved presentation, etc.  But I would imagine that the issue for game companies is that core rules and core supplements are apt to be their best sellers (but also probably have the highest production costs).  As in, probably a much higher pick-up rate on Run and Gun than on Street Lethal, on Street Grimoire than on Forbidden Arcana, etc.  I don't know what the net revenue over time chart looks like, but I'm assuming that at some point it starts tailing off, as the rules begin to feel stale, the new supplements seem pretty niche, etc.  No idea what the sweet spot for a refresh on the rules is, but I'm sure it is something that they have to keep in mind.

There are a lot of things I can tolerate but the skill cap being set to 12 is not one of them, that really bothers me. In SR5 I find myself avoiding things that make my dice pool too large, I prefer physical dice and don't want to be holding so many in my hand. It's a mess when the dice hit the table and even though I have very large hands it's still a struggle to grab all the dice. This is one of the many things that makes me believe that SR5 was not playtested properly.

Ultimately though, another huge issue for me is that there are too many major errors in the book that cause confusion and force the reader to read and re-read the same sections of the book a silly amount of times, and after that, you still need to to the internet for answers, it's ridiculous. I have wasted so much time on these tasks, if the book was written properly I would not have any problems, and I know I'm not alone because barely anyone out there seems to know the rules well. If you read the D&D 5E book you'll find it challenging to find a single error of any kind and the rules are written very clearly. Shadowrun books look much cooler and have infinitely more interesting content (to me at least) but they fail miserably and doing what they set out to do.
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Reaver

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« Reply #16 on: (20:59:52/07-23-18) »
On the dice issue, have you tried the 3.5mm dice?

I got a brick of 36 dice from my gaming store for $9.99cdn. All 36 dice fit in a single hand, can be 'rolled' with 2 hands easily....

If you buy the black ones and buy a black marker, you can fill in the pips of 2 throu 4 for easy counting after a roll as well...
« Last Edit: (23:15:32/07-23-18) by Reaver »
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« Reply #17 on: (10:05:31/07-24-18) »

Ultimately though, another huge issue for me is that there are too many major errors in the book that cause confusion and force the reader to read and re-read the same sections of the book a silly amount of times, and after that, you still need to to the internet for answers, it's ridiculous. I have wasted so much time on these tasks, if the book was written properly I would not have any problems, and I know I'm not alone because barely anyone out there seems to know the rules well. If you read the D&D 5E book you'll find it challenging to find a single error of any kind and the rules are written very clearly. Shadowrun books look much cooler and have infinitely more interesting content (to me at least) but they fail miserably and doing what they set out to do.

That is why I'd like to see a 5.5 edition, with improved presentation and readability.  Bring in all the errata, re-arrange things to make key rules points pop versus all the other words more, create better archetypal characters, and choose a few specific areas to improve on (say, technomancers, wireless bonuses, limiting spirit power) and clean up a few rules that have created innumerable questions (counterspelling versus area spells, the vehicle movement table, what noise/jamming renders a device wirelessly useless).

There will still be people who don't like the skill cap, or the matrix rules, or that wireless bonuses are a thing, or whatever.  But you'd have a pretty solid rule set.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #18 on: (10:55:00/07-24-18) »
I wouldn't do too many improvements since that's a big debate, but yeah, definitely clear things up for an anniversary errata'd edition.
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Finstersang

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« Reply #19 on: (11:46:06/07-24-18) »
I wouldn't do too many improvements since that's a big debate, but yeah, definitely clear things up for an anniversary errata'd edition.

I´d say go for broke with improvements and balancing, as long as you can keep (or enhance) consistency with the other Sourcebooks. It´s a debate for good reasons.  ;D

Luckily, besides limits and other core mechanics, the most contested things can be fixed as isolated issues. Take Spirits: Some tweaks to the summoning process, some tweaks to Powers (Elemental Attack/Aura, Engulf and Movement come to mind), and everything´s a lot smoother at this end.

Or Alchemy: Make the Preparation Test an unopposed test (or double the Net Hits when determining the potency) and maybe add more benefits for using reagents.

Sometimes you can combine measures: F.i., you can apply a light nerf to the hardened armor rules (since Milspecc and Spirit Armor are extremely strong and too hard to counter right now), but then also apply hardened armor to drones (which are too squishy).

All of these are small, but impactfull changes that don´t cause consistency issues.
« Last Edit: (12:02:56/07-24-18) by Finstersang »

Shadowjack

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« Reply #20 on: (12:01:47/07-24-18) »
On the dice issue, have you tried the 3.5mm dice?

I got a brick of 36 dice from my gaming store for $9.99cdn. All 36 dice fit in a single hand, can be 'rolled' with 2 hands easily....

If you buy the black ones and buy a black marker, you can fill in the pips of 2 throu 4 for easy counting after a roll as well...

Yes, I have a set. I didn't use a marker on them but I would if I go back to using them. I shelled out quite a bit of cash for the fancy shadowrun dice by Q-Workshop. They aren't the best but I like them and that's what I use these days. I admit that the small dice are more practical though.


Ultimately though, another huge issue for me is that there are too many major errors in the book that cause confusion and force the reader to read and re-read the same sections of the book a silly amount of times, and after that, you still need to to the internet for answers, it's ridiculous. I have wasted so much time on these tasks, if the book was written properly I would not have any problems, and I know I'm not alone because barely anyone out there seems to know the rules well. If you read the D&D 5E book you'll find it challenging to find a single error of any kind and the rules are written very clearly. Shadowrun books look much cooler and have infinitely more interesting content (to me at least) but they fail miserably and doing what they set out to do.

That is why I'd like to see a 5.5 edition, with improved presentation and readability.  Bring in all the errata, re-arrange things to make key rules points pop versus all the other words more, create better archetypal characters, and choose a few specific areas to improve on (say, technomancers, wireless bonuses, limiting spirit power) and clean up a few rules that have created innumerable questions (counterspelling versus area spells, the vehicle movement table, what noise/jamming renders a device wirelessly useless).

There will still be people who don't like the skill cap, or the matrix rules, or that wireless bonuses are a thing, or whatever.  But you'd have a pretty solid rule set.

You make some solid point but I don't think it's fair to make a new CRB with errata, sell that for a while, then make a 5.5 and sell that, that's making people buy the same book three times. The Anarchy book has so many problems and that's not my fault, so when the errata comes I need to buy it again if I want to play? Honestly, it's bullshit. I could see this being okay if it was only an occasional thing but all the books are screwed up and it's unacceptable. I just want to put 5E behind me and purchase 6E and have it actually be written properly so I can use it without issues.
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Finstersang

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« Reply #21 on: (12:08:02/07-24-18) »
Luckily, besides limits and other core mechanics

Now that I think about it, even the Limit mechanic can be improved on a global scale without consistency issues. I already houseruled it  ;D

Shameless Self-Citation incoming: https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=25061.msg466962.

Hobbes

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« Reply #22 on: (15:31:38/07-24-18) »
All in all, 5e is an improvement to previous editions in regard to the elegance of the mechanics and playability. The game is mainly lacking where diligence and attention to detail is concerned. Good ideas are often implemented only half-assed or without someone editing them who actually has read all the other rules texts that came before. And I see no reason why a new edition would change that. If anything it would make things worse.

+1

Another edition won't help most of the issues I have with the game.  Would it be nice if things like Ownership, SINs, and Personas were fleshed out and mechanically supported rather than some handwaivium and a warning sign "Don't look behind the curtain!"  Sure. 

IMO, 5th edition is still more playable, and better balanced mechanically than previous editions. 

And I like the Priority System.  And Cyberdecks.  And no players actually buy skills up to 12.  PCs rarely increase a skill to 7.  The increase of skill cap is for NPCs so GMs can just say the big bad has 11 Skill and 5 stat so 16 Dice.  It's so a GM doesn't need to dive into ticky-tacky details on the NPCs to keep up with PC Dice pools.  True Story.  I think I've seen two characters increase a skill past 6.

And Alchemy is mechanically really strong with the Forbidden Arcana options now.  If TMs get some decent support they'll be in the "Non-optimal but playable" category as opposed to the current "Well if you really want to, but I have to warn you....." that they're currently in. 

I mean really, Complex Form "Get Marks" and some meat space dice pool (or Initiative) increasing qualities (or gear) that required Resonance.  Done.  Not that we'll see that, but you never know.

Would I like a "New and Improved edition"  Absolutely.  But I don't see that as a likely outcome of 6th edition.  Or even a 5.5 edition.  I suspect it would be more or less what we have now, but with a stack of new books to buy.  (which I would).   


PMárk

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« Reply #23 on: (15:54:55/07-24-18) »


That is why I'd like to see a 5.5 edition, with improved presentation and readability.  Bring in all the errata, re-arrange things to make key rules points pop versus all the other words more, create better archetypal characters, and choose a few specific areas to improve on (say, technomancers, wireless bonuses, limiting spirit power) and clean up a few rules that have created innumerable questions (counterspelling versus area spells, the vehicle movement table, what noise/jamming renders a device wirelessly useless).

And a clear writeup about how frequent Background Count should be and to what level!!!!! Generally, just a clear writeup for BC, geez. 

Quote
There will still be people who don't like the skill cap, or the matrix rules, or that wireless bonuses are a thing, or whatever.  But you'd have a pretty solid rule set.

Agree. I like most of how 5e works, it just needs a clear-up, but a serious one for that.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #24 on: (16:04:18/07-24-18) »
BC: As common as the GM desires.
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PMárk

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« Reply #25 on: (16:33:39/07-24-18) »
BC: As common as the GM desires.

Since it's one of the major things that could curb back, or atl least have a huuuuge effect on how strong magic is, no, please. If I'd want those kind of answers for major parts of the rules, I'd play another game. I want to know, how something, that has a major impact on one of the core aspects of the game, works and I want to know it in precise terms.

Also, it just seems that the developers/writers didn't commincate, since the BC in the missions is much more mild than in SG. Those are the things a 5.5 could help with.
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Marcus

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« Reply #26 on: (17:04:22/07-24-18) »
BC is a great idea. It makes sense to the setting. The mechanical effect to BC is too dramatic. No one wants constant up miscellaneous die penalties going from 1 to 24. It's needs to be normalized or add mechanics that allow for negating it. Sure we have noise in tech, but lets be real, how much noise reduction tech can you pile? Loads and loads.

I think there is a very good chance they can make the next anniversary edition what everyone would like to see, including the fully revised alchemy rules, and I pray some decent TM rules. But as was said I would really, really like to the matrix patched. Persona are a great idea, but they need to clarified, their relationship with icon addressed how TM interact with address, and the network rules also re-touched for simplification. I like decks, I like bricking, i like wireless bonuses, but lets take it further and integrate the whole thing.

I look at books like D&D 5th DMG, and that book is pretty seamless, you could literally open the adventure/dungeon generation section, roll on tables and create a fully functional adventure without ever having to do anything else (Take a look at https://donjon.bin.sh/5e/random/ for some of those table in automated fashion). It should be totally be possible to create a similar solution for SR. There is start to that in core but it really needs to be flushed out and expanded.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #27 on: (17:07:50/07-24-18) »
BC: As common as the GM desires.

Since it's one of the major things that could curb back, or atl least have a huuuuge effect on how strong magic is, no, please. If I'd want those kind of answers for major parts of the rules, I'd play another game. I want to know, how something, that has a major impact on one of the core aspects of the game, works and I want to know it in precise terms.

Also, it just seems that the developers/writers didn't commincate, since the BC in the missions is much more mild than in SG. Those are the things a 5.5 could help with.
Then you should have a decent conversation with your gm.
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« Reply #28 on: (17:24:48/07-24-18) »
Funny thing: Written rules help GMs - especially new GMs - master the game in a way that makes them more consistent and fun to play. Not everyone is buying these books just for the flavor of the shadow talk and the world building. Buying a rulebook should - and I hope this is not a too outlandish concept - actually provide you with rules that help you create a fun and fair experience for everyone involved.
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« Reply #29 on: (18:04:00/07-24-18) »
Funny thing: Written rules help GMs - especially new GMs - master the game in a way that makes them more consistent and fun to play. Not everyone is buying these books just for the flavor of the shadow talk and the world building. Buying a rulebook should - and I hope this is not a too outlandish concept - actually provide you with rules that help you create a fun and fair experience for everyone involved.

And they should also help set some common expectations (for players, GMs, writers of Missions and other adventures, etc).  Groups may choose to vary, but ideally they know "this is standard, this is what we are doing" rather than having to draft their own constitution from scratch.
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