NEWS

Summoning Spirits should cost Money - Try to change my mind

  • 98 Replies
  • 2120 Views

Nephilim

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 54
« Reply #60 on: (12:11:55/07-12-18) »
It does seem extreme, as you could make a case for many games where if you see a behavior like this it may be a player problem and not a character or game problem.
I have never seen anyone bind 6 spirits and use them all at once(maybe 1 or 2 at once), its too much for most people and it isn't obvious to a good player as a reasonable strategy with a social game. Just because something is an a logical extreme does not mean it should be nerfed, it means that a GM can, and should bring a requisite response.
The worst enemies of a shadowrun game are its own players, not the rules.

This is the point I and Kiin are trying to make. It's not that it's the difficulty of building a character that way that establishes it as an outlier, it's that in my experience most players don't play this way. You're saying the possibility for the abuse exists, and no one really disagrees with you there. Options for abusing the system will always exist, as extreme examples like the Peasant Railgun or the Bag of Rats trick prove. But most players of the game simply don't play in the manner you're presenting as a doomsday scenario. I have seen spirit armies in my game, but they're ordinarily only summoned when it works thematically, or the players are desperate. I've certainly had issues with elements of magic causing issues at my tables, but spirit swarms haven't ever been one of them.
« Last Edit: (12:34:13/07-12-18) by Nephilim »

Plastic-Man

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 11
« Reply #61 on: (12:54:59/07-12-18) »
It does seem extreme, as you could make a case for many games where if you see a behavior like this it may be a player problem and not a character or game problem.
I have never seen anyone bind 6 spirits and use them all at once(maybe 1 or 2 at once), its too much for most people and it isn't obvious to a good player as a reasonable strategy with a social game. Just because something is an a logical extreme does not mean it should be nerfed, it means that a GM can, and should bring a requisite response.
The worst enemies of a shadowrun game are its own players, not the rules.

This is the point I and Kiin are trying to make. It's not that it's the difficulty of building a character that way that establishes it as an outlier, it's that in my experience most players don't play this way. You're saying the possibility for the abuse exists, and no one really disagrees with you there. Options for abusing the system will always exist, as extreme examples like the Peasant Railgun or the Bag of Rats trick prove. But most players of the game simply don't play in the manner you're presenting as a doomsday scenario. I have seen spirit armies in my game, but they're ordinarily only summoned when it works thematically, or the players are desperate. I've certainly had issues with elements of magic causing issues at my tables, but spirit swarms haven't ever been one of them.

When I first started designing a character for this game I liked the idea of a Rigger, a character that utilizes robots, a concept few other popular systems allow. Then when it came to looking at how that would play out, Shadowrun drones are like sending huge chunks of your limited money off to fight for you and there's an extremely high risk of it being lost forever. In and out of game, no one has any qualms about ending a drone.

I then looked into summoning and one of the problems that was brought in forums was the idea that a strong summons often invalidated players, so people have had problems with it. I didn't play a mage because summoning is far too easy, it would hard to see how it would not be a constant go to. From a purely tactical stand point being able to summon even a normal human with a gun is huge boon, let alone a creature that is far better.

Even if they don't play that way, then the player is dragonballing, holding back their power.  They may not instantly squash the challenge the way the hypothetical constantly 6 spirit summoner would but you can see them putting in more or less effort when needed, there is little threat to them other than complete surprise but that can end anyone.

So the idea that one archetype should be extremely strong from the get go because you think the player won't instantly abuse is a flawed argument when the question is why does it even need to exist at that level in the first place?
« Last Edit: (12:58:30/07-12-18) by Plastic-Man »

adzling

  • *
  • Troubleshooter
  • Prime Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2775
« Reply #62 on: (12:57:12/07-12-18) »
It does seem extreme, as you could make a case for many games where if you see a behavior like this it may be a player problem and not a character or game problem.
I have never seen anyone bind 6 spirits and use them all at once(maybe 1 or 2 at once), its too much for most people and it isn't obvious to a good player as a reasonable strategy with a social game. Just because something is an a logical extreme does not mean it should be nerfed, it means that a GM can, and should bring a requisite response.
The worst enemies of a shadowrun game are its own players, not the rules.
This is the point I and Kiin are trying to make. It's not that it's the difficulty of building a character that way that establishes it as an outlier, it's that in my experience most players don't play this way. You're saying the possibility for the abuse exists, and no one really disagrees with you there. Options for abusing the system will always exist, as extreme examples like the Peasant Railgun or the Bag of Rats trick prove. But most players of the game simply don't play in the manner you're presenting as a doomsday scenario. I have seen spirit armies in my game, but they're ordinarily only summoned when it works thematically, or the players are desperate. I've certainly had issues with elements of magic causing issues at my tables, but spirit swarms haven't ever been one of them.

Well it's clearly not a player problem as this is how the game is intended to be played, otherwise the rules would be different.

If this was not the intention of the binding rules then the spirit index rules would counter it, but as I have shown they do not (-1 to actions? hah!).

Also, as I have pointed out, you don't need an extreme or even purpose-built build to do this. A regular old generic mage out of chargen can easily achieve this while still covering all his other bases.

So if you're argument is this is bad player activity then why not adjust the rules to counter this abuse?

Just because you have not encountered it is not a valid argument.

That's an argument from ignorance fallacy.

I'm gonna go back to my counter-point:

What does a spirit army add to the Shadowrun game?
Live in the SF Bay Area and looking for a group? PM me we have a slot open!

adzling

  • *
  • Troubleshooter
  • Prime Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2775
« Reply #63 on: (12:59:20/07-12-18) »
So the idea that one archetype should be extremely strong from the get go because you think the player won't instantly abuse is a flawed argument when the question is why does it even need to exist at that level in the first place?

excellent point! well done Plastic.
Live in the SF Bay Area and looking for a group? PM me we have a slot open!

Nephilim

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 54
« Reply #64 on: (13:19:46/07-12-18) »

Well it's clearly not a player problem as this is how the game is intended to be played, otherwise the rules would be different.

If this was not the intention of the binding rules then the spirit index rules would counter it, but as I have shown they do not (-1 to actions? hah!).

Also, as I have pointed out, you don't need an extreme or even purpose-built build to do this. A regular old generic mage out of chargen can easily achieve this while still covering all his other bases.

So if you're argument is this is bad player activity then why not adjust the rules to counter this abuse?

Just because you have not encountered it is not a valid argument.

That's an argument from ignorance fallacy.

I'm gonna go back to my counter-point:

What does a spirit army add to the Shadowrun game?

It would actually be anecdotal fallacy, Just because the rules don't specifically disallow something doesn't mean that's how it's intended to be played. That's ridiculous. Yes, a regular old generic mage might be able to, the point is they don't.

I didn't (and won't) answer your counter-point because it's an intentionally loaded question. Any additions I might come with, you'll simply rip down or ignore as you've been doing with all the other counterpoints to your argument.

And honestly, If you Gentlemen have an issue with spirits, houserule it as you, Adzling, already have. If you dislike this because it feels like you're violating the sanctity of the rules, then request that the official rules be changed. The devs may agree with you and do so, or they may not. Past that, there's not much to be done. It's clear that myself and other players don't mind or enjoy the rules as they exist and feel no desire to alter or remove. The discussion here is clearly failing to accomplish anything meaningful, so I really don't see a reason to continue arguing in circles.

adzling

  • *
  • Troubleshooter
  • Prime Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2775
« Reply #65 on: (13:27:10/07-12-18) »
It would actually be anecdotal fallacy, Just because the rules don't specifically disallow something doesn't mean that's how it's intended to be played. That's ridiculous. Yes, a regular old generic mage might be able to, the point is they don't.

I didn't (and won't) answer your counter-point because it's an intentionally loaded question.

I appreciate your clarity re: anecdotal vs ignorance!

They don't AT YOUR TABLE or IN YOUR EXPERIENCE.

Clearly the rules permit this and expect it (otherwise they would not have attempted to bandaid the problem with non-functional spirit index and core book sidebar).

My question re: "what does it add" is not a loaded question, it's reasonable given you are rejecting that it's a problem at all. Absent it being a problem, why is it even in the game if it adds nothing to gameplay, table fun or teamwork enhancement and (according to you) is not even used?
Live in the SF Bay Area and looking for a group? PM me we have a slot open!

Nephilim

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 54
« Reply #66 on: (13:34:05/07-12-18) »
They don't AT YOUR TABLE or IN YOUR EXPERIENCE.

Well, yeah. To my knowledge there are no scientific studies: RE Usage of Spirit Armies in the Shadowrun Tabletop Roleplaying game. Everyone who's weighed in here is doing it based on anecdotal evidence, yourself included.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5712
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #67 on: (13:49:43/07-12-18) »
<sits back, eating popcorn>

You know, this debate comes up about every 18 months since forever. It has existed across every edition of SR, and is not going to end soon.

If you think this is a problem now, it was more of a problem (to some) back in earlier editions when Spirits were more powerful. (When ItnW actually made them immune!).

Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Marcus

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2156
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #68 on: (13:55:48/07-12-18) »


My point is that being able to bind 4-8 spirits of force 5-6 out of chargen is inherently game destroying as it requires the table to start a minigame of spirit battles/ GM fiat rock falls kills mage stuff.

This is not how srun is meant to work.

You're meant to collectively solve problems with an emphasis on teamwork.

The spirit army in your back pocket (or merc army, or critter army, or drone army, or any farking army) that bypasses all security, is undetectable until after they appear AND cannot be stopped from appearing unless you have magical foreknowledge ADDS NOTHING to the game.

If it was inherently game destroying it destroy every game that had mage able to summon in it. So that obviously holds no water. Yes it's potentially unbalancing.  So purpose workable solution, start with 1 unbound spirit, 1 bound, spirit "slot" and 1 additional slot per initiation? 1 Spirit per point of magic? Do that and you just makes the strong stronger and weak weaker.

So go the other direction? Buff everyone to be a strong as that?

But if your serous about the whole action economy question this still doesn't begin to address it. Summong as whole would need a total re-write to solve that issue.

<Pass the damn popcorn, if you're just gonna sit there Reaver>
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

mbisber

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 51
« Reply #69 on: (14:00:18/07-12-18) »
A regular old generic mage out of chargen can easily achieve this while still covering all his other bases.

What does a spirit army add to the Shadowrun game?
And a regular old generic non-mage out of chargen can fling multiple grenades every action. What does that add to the Shadowrun game?

But, because of the discussion here I have decided not to Summon and Bind 8 (or 12) Spirits in Missions Neo-Tokyo. Thanks for your advocacy.

Nephilim

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 54
« Reply #70 on: (14:01:31/07-12-18) »
<sits back, eating popcorn>

Reaver...you know the rules. If you bring a snack, you have to share with everyone.  ;D

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Chummer
  • *
  • Posts: 112
« Reply #71 on: (14:05:42/07-12-18) »
Adzling,

You make some valid points, but your overall crusade is simply lost on the fact that almost no one ever sees this issue come up in actual play. I too believe in game balance, but accept that it almost never happens.

As for actual play, I have found the sheer versatility of magic and overlapping explosions to be far more harmful. As we have seen though, your mileage may vary.

adzling

  • *
  • Troubleshooter
  • Prime Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2775
« Reply #72 on: (14:09:29/07-12-18) »
Well, yeah. To my knowledge there are no scientific studies: RE Usage of Spirit Armies in the Shadowrun Tabletop Roleplaying game. Everyone who's weighed in here is doing it based on anecdotal evidence, yourself included.

haha fair point!

I would still prefer the rules to reflect how the game is played rather than expecting players to not use capabilities explicitly granted to them.

Which brings me back to the point I keep bringing up but no one has an answer for: why should we keep binding as is when it clearly adds nothing to the game and is to be discouraged from being used?

No one has, so far, provided a good answer for that.
Live in the SF Bay Area and looking for a group? PM me we have a slot open!

Marcus

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2156
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #73 on: (14:34:54/07-12-18) »
A couple things.

1 think might be a way to get some movement on this issue, the concern in sprite strike force, if you re-write the rules on sprite types to be more "role locked" you could restrict this. So only 1 spirit of each type and only combat spirits could be order into combat something along those lines. Could be a place to start.

2 At some point anecdotal evidence must become census or at-least expert testimony.

*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Iron Serpent Prince

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 167
« Reply #74 on: (15:20:53/07-12-18) »
I guess this is why the Shadowrun 5e rules are in such sad shape.

The writers put down their pencils (okay, stopped typing on their keyboards), and looked over what they have created.

"Hmmmm...  As written, these rules require that all players 'do the right thing,' and that all GMs are experienced, and confident enough to smack down any player who doesn't..."

"They're flawless!!  Ship them!"

It makes me ask "If the rules require that all players 'play nice,' and that all GMs make good judgement calls... what are customers paying for then?"

Most of the arguments here make the case that everyone would be better off using something like Starfinder (without the spaceships - or with if that is how you roll).  Although, to be fair, there is no spirit summoning in Starfinder.

And not only all of that...  But that we can't expect that anyone can be arsed to do anything about it because "balance can never happen."

So do explain to me, what exactly are customers paying for?