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[5e OOC] Black Trenchcoat

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eryrwyn

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« Reply #210 on: (08:19:39/07-06-18) »
I keep in mind that it works both ways, yeah 4 drain is ruff but your spells are also +4 damage so, also when think about it. It's works in your favor as it means you can through spells with stun drain code but that will pack damage that would be P level normally. Spirits with +4 damage also is pretty terrifying. Again shoot low force wise, and get lots of services.

It definitely doesn't work in my favour. I have one combat spell as I'm playing an illusionist /manipulation mage. Also, remember that Force is the limit if not using reagents, which means that you need higher Force in order to get any net hits on opposed spells (almost all spells are opposed apart from buffs) as you need to defeat the opponent's successes and get any net hits to do anything at all.

As for spirits, you can't really summon with low Force and expect many services as the spirit's Force acts as limit for the roll. Also, low Force spirits have very low dice pools. (Low Force is even worse my tradition, as a Possession spirit needs to possess a vessel in order to do anything non-astrally and to do that, it needs to roll its Force x2 against Intuition + Willpower of a living vessel, or the Object Resistance if it's an item. )

Marcus

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« Reply #211 on: (08:38:19/07-06-18) »
Limits are easy to break. Get low force spirit with a bonus to agility, a force 2 will punch like a force 6. Further it's easier to get services as they oppose with less dice. The illusion is a problem I admit. But Red's a fair cop what's the illusion equivelent of +4 dmg?
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blackshade10

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« Reply #212 on: (08:47:15/07-06-18) »
But the hits you get are limited by its Force, and the net hits you get.  That basically makes it mandatory to use reagents. 


Marcus

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« Reply #213 on: (09:20:09/07-06-18) »
Reagents aren't the only way to break limits.
So beast spirit at force 3, rolls 3 dice vs your 12? Odds are you get 2 services and roll vs drain of 5S, and it's only slightly less likely you get 3 services and roll vs drain of 4S. For something that's gonna hit like force 7 that seems pretty reasonable to me.

For illusion i would say it's take +4 hits to see through it? Does that seem fair?
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blackshade10

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« Reply #214 on: (09:32:29/07-06-18) »
Not sure how you got 5s, it's in 2s per hit.  So, force 3, 2 services, and if it gets 1 hit, I eat 6S. 

Yeah, it can hit like a force 7, but it can't aim or take a hit like one or roll any skills like one.

Jusenkyo

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« Reply #215 on: (09:48:28/07-06-18) »
uh blarg sorry everyone, I got kidnapped to the beach with no internet for a few days cause my family has a thing every year, and they wouldn't take no for an answer. Sister showed up at my house and basically took me with no notice. Should have remembered to say something but I thought it was gonna take a little longer to get everyone in. If ya'll are all still good Avalanche can show up still.

Redwulfe

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« Reply #216 on: (10:14:05/07-06-18) »
The spirit only needs one hit to get the equivalent of 4 net hits and combat really doesn't happen that often in these style games. unless you are ambushing your opponent in which they will get no defense roll and your force 3 spirit will blow them out of the water.

We could make it tougher to see through illusion as well. The higher spell drain means that you do have to throw less force stuff, stun will be more favorable to lethal and regents are usable to keep things from getting to much for the mage. use the regents in your description and magic starts to come alive a bit more. I try to be very fair. this is not to punish it is to bring the world to life and make it grittier and more realistic. Yes if you get caught without armor a ganger with a pistol should be able to kill you and even with armor a ganger with a pistol can kill you. But I don't tend to have gangers just jump you for no reason. notice the gangers in the tattoo shop they are there and they don't even say a word to you, because you don't look like marks, you didn't try to provoke them, and you aren't worth the trouble because a skilled guy with a gun can kill them as well.

As far as illusions go it does seem fair that they should also be harder to see through so I will give them a +4 versus resistance. we usually didn't because their was no armor versus illusions that we knew of. but then again their is no armor versus drain except casting lower with regents to blow the limits, so lets give it a go and see what happens. If it becomes to detrimental to the game we will re-evaluate it latter.

AR at lou's: Lou doesn't seem to be the most savvy when it comes to the matrix. The sculpted artwork in the designs of the graphics is top notch though. His location doesn't seem to have a host, but he has at least tried to hide any icon that he doesn't want hacked so you do not see any icons for cameras or security devices. He does have some sculpted AR graphics for his business which is typical for most businesses. The signage is easier to get and move to new locations when it is just an RFID with an ARO that is all the signage that is present. Their is also and RFID that has an ARO file that serves as the static matrix page for the business. It list pricing and information on getting and appointment and such. There is a commcode listed in this page which is probably the comm to the business itself. The building also has an ARO overlay that is very present in most buildings downtown which gives the building a slight Greenish glow that makes the emerald city emerald, Lou has however went an extra step and done some artistic yellow brickwork to make his place stand out a bit in the crowd.
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Redwulfe

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« Reply #217 on: (10:28:07/07-06-18) »
uh blarg sorry everyone, I got kidnapped to the beach with no internet for a few days cause my family has a thing every year, and they wouldn't take no for an answer. Sister showed up at my house and basically took me with no notice. Should have remembered to say something but I thought it was gonna take a little longer to get everyone in. If ya'll are all still good Avalanche can show up still.

Yep you'er all good
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Redwulfe

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« Reply #218 on: (10:33:54/07-06-18) »
Ryu can teamwork negotiation if you wish.
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adzling

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« Reply #219 on: (10:37:38/07-06-18) »
so this would affect any come down damage from drugs as well?

if so i need to rethink things a bit...

i do think that this will have all kinds of unintended consequences that we won't expect.

example 1: adding 4 auto successes to all non-damage spells makes them auto succeed. so if someone casts paralyze, opium den, boost attribute or pretty much any non-damage spell then they will automatically succeed with no point in rolling spell defense.

example 2: add 4 damage to each brute force attack and almost any wireless device goes down in one shot.

blackshade10

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« Reply #220 on: (10:47:23/07-06-18) »
Now, I'm new to Shadowrun, and I will totally admit that this might be just me, so take it as you will.

Quote
Yes if you get caught without armor a ganger with a pistol should be able to kill you and even with armor a ganger with a pistol can kill you. But I don't tend to have gangers just jump you for no reason. notice the gangers in the tattoo shop they are there and they don't even say a word to you, because you don't look like marks, you didn't try to provoke them, and you aren't worth the trouble because a skilled guy with a gun can kill them as well.

This actually sounds... MORE unrealistic and lacking in grit to me.  I kind of imagine real fights where you're dragging yourself out of fights all bloodied up and bruised, because brutality and stuff.  It's not that a ganger CAN kill us with a surprise shot from the dark.  It's that there's a very, very good chance that he WILL kill us in a single shot.  I mean, if I was surprised, and hit, and that ganger got... 3 or 4 hits on his attack, Crow would be dead before he even hit the ground.  Human beings are actually remarkably durable, we can take quite a lot of punishment without dying, and heal in a way that is almost bizarrely rare in nature. 

But anyway, I'm not trying to rock the boat, the statement just made me raise an eyebrow.  I just know that, as I crunch math in my head with the play style that it will probably be kind of common to not wear full-body armor in the course of our missions for obvious reasons, that I'll probably end up playing in an extremely risk averse fashion, since any amount of firepower has the not insignificant chance of just dropping any one of us. 

I'm not arguing to change the rule if you don't want to, math crunching in games is just kind of an impulse of mine.  Comes from all my years of character building and optimization as a hobby.

adzling

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« Reply #221 on: (10:59:22/07-06-18) »
you know Red one alt option to increasing damage is to decrease healing.

imho the healing from first aid and spells is the main culprit in making damage less lethal in Srun.

with srun healing rules and spells you take 5 and your better, onto the next thing.

if we used the optional healing rules in Bullets and Bandages taking damage would be more problematic, take longer to heal, etc.

Redwulfe

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« Reply #222 on: (11:14:03/07-06-18) »
so this would affect any come down damage from drugs as well?

if so i need to rethink things a bit...

i do think that this will have all kinds of unintended consequences that we won't expect.

example 1: adding 4 auto successes to all non-damage spells makes them auto succeed. so if someone casts paralyze, opium den, boost attribute or pretty much any non-damage spell then they will automatically succeed with no point in rolling spell defense.

example 2: add 4 damage to each brute force attack and almost any wireless device goes down in one shot.

Let me give this some thought. Combats ended very quickly in my previous games when we used the damage increase and matrix combat went quick as well. I don't recall us adding to non-combat stuff before though (hacks, illusions, and so on) we did add to drain and it was mitigated by lower castings and summonings so we didn't have much of an issue.

We never had anyone use drugs before so that is an oversight that I did not think about. For now while I think about it lets go back to just sticking the rule to damage and damage only. I will take a very close look at illusions and drugs as those are new territories for me on this rule. Like I said the intent was to make combat more realistic not to unbalance the game in a new way. We should continue to discuss as we move along.
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Redwulfe

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« Reply #223 on: (11:24:09/07-06-18) »
Now, I'm new to Shadowrun, and I will totally admit that this might be just me, so take it as you will.

Quote
Yes if you get caught without armor a ganger with a pistol should be able to kill you and even with armor a ganger with a pistol can kill you. But I don't tend to have gangers just jump you for no reason. notice the gangers in the tattoo shop they are there and they don't even say a word to you, because you don't look like marks, you didn't try to provoke them, and you aren't worth the trouble because a skilled guy with a gun can kill them as well.

This actually sounds... MORE unrealistic and lacking in grit to me.  I kind of imagine real fights where you're dragging yourself out of fights all bloodied up and bruised, because brutality and stuff.  It's not that a ganger CAN kill us with a surprise shot from the dark.  It's that there's a very, very good chance that he WILL kill us in a single shot.  I mean, if I was surprised, and hit, and that ganger got... 3 or 4 hits on his attack, Crow would be dead before he even hit the ground.  Human beings are actually remarkably durable, we can take quite a lot of punishment without dying, and heal in a way that is almost bizarrely rare in nature. 

But anyway, I'm not trying to rock the boat, the statement just made me raise an eyebrow.  I just know that, as I crunch math in my head with the play style that it will probably be kind of common to not wear full-body armor in the course of our missions for obvious reasons, that I'll probably end up playing in an extremely risk averse fashion, since any amount of firepower has the not insignificant chance of just dropping any one of us. 

I'm not arguing to change the rule if you don't want to, math crunching in games is just kind of an impulse of mine.  Comes from all my years of character building and optimization as a hobby.

I wish that guns where less deadly than they are. Anyone with a gun has a potential chance to kill you. I really wish that wasn't true, but unfortunately it is. Shadowrun however is not a simulator and this rule is intended to make it more like a simulation. We should discuss how to bring this in without unforeseen balance issues.
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Redwulfe

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« Reply #224 on: (11:25:14/07-06-18) »
you know Red one alt option to increasing damage is to decrease healing.

imho the healing from first aid and spells is the main culprit in making damage less lethal in Srun.

with srun healing rules and spells you take 5 and your better, onto the next thing.

if we used the optional healing rules in Bullets and Bandages taking damage would be more problematic, take longer to heal, etc.

You know I have never really thought about it from this angle. :) I will look at that today.
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