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So uh, bricking guns?

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Streetsam_Crunch

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« Reply #45 on: (16:07:00/06-23-18) »
Huh? Why would we not be talking about hacking guns with wireless bonuses? We were talking about toys that have wireless bonuses after all. Of course your gun isn't hackable if it's not employing a wireless thing and is offline.

I was just clarifying, for myself if nothing else. Some of the posts gave me the impression that all guns were somehow hackable. That may have been on me, and that it was 3 am when I was reading this ;)

Quote
As for Gremlins: if the gun isn't complicated enough to become temporarily (until you do a free repair) unusable when its electronics are fried, why would it be complicated enough to malfunction?

Because gremlins specifically states electronic OR mechanical devices (to me, mechanical would include things like throwback triggers, leading to jams or misfires). It also uses the term 'inexplicably' breaks down, meaning there's not necessarily a logical reason why it should, just that it does. Then again, maybe I take a harder line on it than most in my mind. Still, it never came up on my character (mostly due to roleplay and my character's reticence to use any tech, I imagine) or the player I had that picked it up. it is just less 1's to require a glitch, and I had the level 2 quality, and they only had a level 1. Granted, none of my Missions GM's at con had me roll to use my comlink...

I pity the fool that picks up the full level 4 quality, though. That's just asking for a GM to mess with you. :P

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« Reply #46 on: (17:41:07/06-23-18) »
I was just clarifying, for myself if nothing else. Some of the posts gave me the impression that all guns were somehow hackable. That may have been on me, and that it was 3 am when I was reading this ;)


Warning, needless pedantic post incoming.

Everything in 5th Edition is Hackable except Throwback devices or something that is wireless off.  Your shoes, your coffee cup, your sandwich, your toothpaste.... all of it.  Hackable.  All of it providing a constant stream of information to you and your corporate overlords.  Mind you what you can accomplish by hacking someone's toothpaste isn't meaningful in game terms.  Edit File so they only brush their teeth for 110 seconds instead of the full two minutes so the chance of tooth decay over the years is increased by .00001% maybe.  Or if they've got the fancy Smartpaste by Evo!  (Sales really tanked during the CFD scare but it's coming back around...) block the tartar build up notification?  *shrug*

Anyway.  Everything.  Hackable.  All the time.  Most of it useless in game terms. 

Shadowrunners, and the folks we interact with in a meaningful way, will have taken some basic precautions.  Like turning off Wireless on devices that don't provide a Wireless bonus, slaving the useful ones to a PAN, hiring a Decker or Agent to watch over our Matrix vulnerabilities and all that.

It's safe to presume that a professional will have deactivated wireless on a gun that doesn't have any wireless bonus.  And Slaved a smartgun (or whatever) to a Commlink if they have a decent one available and set it to run Silent.  It is also safe to presume that gangers, rent-a-cops, inexperienced criminals, and other non-Shadowrunners will likely have left the Wireless on even if it's not smartlinked.  The real amateurs won't even be running silent.   

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #47 on: (12:15:14/06-25-18) »
Everything in 5th Edition is Hackable except Throwback devices or something that is wireless off.

Small correction needed here.

Everything in 5th Edition is Hackable.  Full.  Stop.

The only thing that Throwback's and Wireless Off enjoy is that they are not Wirelessly Hackable.

Yes, even if you have an 1880's antique firearm, for some reason in SR5 it has electronics added, and can therefor be bricked.

For reference:
Quote from: SR5 Core, 2nd Printing, page 421
THROWBACKS
Some devices are throwbacks, devices that do not have wireless capability. While they still exist, they are becoming more and more rare in the 2070s. Throwbacks cannot be accessed by wireless connection, and so can neither be controlled remotely nor gain a wireless bonus.

If you consider a deviceís wireless link to be a nuisance, you can turn it into a throwback with a Hardware + Logic [Mental] (8, 10 minutes) Extended Testóor simply purchase the device as a throwback in the first place (always an option, though it may get you some funny looks).

While throwbacks are immune to hacking via the wireless Matrix, all devices have a universal access port.  Devices can be connected with a data cable with little problem. If youíve got a datajack, you can use its included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly, which means nothing is completely safe from a hacker with a datajack. Of course, if a hacker is able to sneak up to you and plug into your gun, you might have bigger problems than hacking attacks from the Matrix.

One of the many things that customers are still waiting for sensible errata for....

Mirikon

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« Reply #48 on: (03:20:12/06-26-18) »
And this is what happens when you go full steam on the nostalgia train without thinking how it fucks everything else up.
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« Reply #49 on: (05:02:42/06-26-18) »
Being able to brick things is hardly some terrible reality of the system. Further it's relationship to nostalgia is a best tenuous. It was possible to hack gear in 3rd, but it was never done, at any table i was at. The action economy on was terrible, the most common decking builds from third i was used  was a datajack bearing mage, who also was a great decker. Bring back Deckers after the complete destruction of the archetype in 4th is perfectly reasonable thing to do. In a very real sense, Deckers were at the heart of Shadowrun sense first. Essentially all supplements have been written with perspective of a group of wise cracking deckers. It get hard to justify that when there are no more deckers. So I would call the restoration of the Archetype more along the lines of Common sense, then some sort of twisted Nostalgia based emotional silliness. Giving decker the ability to disable basically any unprotected tech also fits within their bailiwick. I don't think it makes them overly strong, and how many times have you seen stuff bricked in 5th? It's still just not the en vogue method of hacking.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #50 on: (12:50:55/06-27-18) »
Being able to brick things is hardly some terrible reality of the system. Further it's relationship to nostalgia is a best tenuous. It was possible to hack gear in 3rd, but it was never done, at any table i was at. The action economy on was terrible, the most common decking builds from third i was used  was a datajack bearing mage, who also was a great decker. Bring back Deckers after the complete destruction of the archetype in 4th is perfectly reasonable thing to do. In a very real sense, Deckers were at the heart of Shadowrun sense first. Essentially all supplements have been written with perspective of a group of wise cracking deckers. It get hard to justify that when there are no more deckers. So I would call the restoration of the Archetype more along the lines of Common sense, then some sort of twisted Nostalgia based emotional silliness. Giving decker the ability to disable basically any unprotected tech also fits within their bailiwick. I don't think it makes them overly strong, and how many times have you seen stuff bricked in 5th? It's still just not the en vogue method of hacking.
Let me break down my thoughts on it.

First, the nostalgia train of going back to something like the old Matrix (because its only crashed twice, causing untold devastation each time, so what could possibly go wrong with going back to that model?) had ripple effects throughout all the matrix-users. The de facto class separation of riggers and deckers, making it impossible for anyone to make a hybrid style or do both was intentional, and a seriously craptacular idea at the same time. When the average group is 4-5 people, with only one of them being a Matrix type, that leaves gaping holes in your squad if someone can't at least sing a few bars on the other side of that duality. And because of the resources required for decks/RCCs and the return of the godawful Priority system, it is essentially impossible for anyone else to sideline as a decker/rigger to cover those roles.

Second, the fact that you're basically getting locked in to one of a few play styles bugs the everloving fuck out of me. In 4e, you could still be the 'old style' combat hacker, going in with the group and getting the intel off a standalone system and then helping with the gun battles as you got out of dodge. You could also be the man in the van, running overwatch, editing cameras on the fly, opening doors, suppressing alarms, and generally making life as easy as possible for the rest of the group. Or you could do a hybrid of these, kicking back in the van while you have a drone presence going with the group, either as an additional gun, or to tap into standalone systems for you, and so on.

Third, the reason that no one hacked gear in 3rd was because most gear worth hacking was secured unless you got a direct connection. Hell, in 4th it was pretty much the same, unless you managed to hack into someone's PAN. But even then, it was still a situation where if you'd gotten to that point there were probably better things you could be doing to the enemy than bricking their guns. But when they fucked matrix players over and took away the option for hackers to be anything but deckers or technomancers (and the absolute assraping TMs got is another topic entirely), they decided to fuck everyone else over as well by making ALL gear hackable unless you deliberately removed functionality, and made it nigh impossible for someone who wasn't a decker to properly secure their gear (while TMs can't secure their own CLOTHES), so that everyone got that trickle down fucking.
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« Reply #51 on: (14:27:09/06-27-18) »
Maybe I am running this wrong but I don't think so. To me bricking someone is not an easy task. This will be long and feel free to snip if you decide to reply.

Situation a Street sam is on a run with his team and dreck hits the fan. The opposing teams decker was already in VR for this random encounter but we will give it to him since we want to brick stuff. the Street Sam being a smart man has his gear running silent, not wirelessly off, since who cares if they take a -2 to matrix tests.

Deckers action: He automatically sees that the Sam has no Icons visible and knows that that means he is running silent. So he decides to focus on the Sams eyes to muck up his day. Complex action Matrix perception to spot little Sammies silent running eyes because you can't hack an icon that you can't see. Now since Sammy did not use a device mod to add sleaze 6 to his eyes and let the decker set up his defense he has on rely on his logic only to defend himself from the icon being seen. We will say the decker gets the one success needed to see the eyes.

At this point it would matter if the GM rules that the camera, eyes and datastorage, that is in all devices of the sixth world, in the eyes each have a unique icon in the overall eyes package. If they do then the decker has spotted one icon out of three and it is random which it is. We will say that it is all just one icon to make it easier on the decker. We will also say that the Sam is not wearing a ballistics mask, another icon or grouping of icons. You know what hacking the gun would probably be easier as it is just one icon, unless the smart gun is an icon separate from the gun, not to mention the clip having data storage as well or that he might have wiring in his arm like wired reflexes or a cyber arm.

This would make it way to hard to brick something so lets just say its just the eyes and the eyes alone. Decker is done with his turn and he has spotted the eyes, now for the Sammy to go, whoops their went one of the security guards, man Down!!

Sammies deckers turn: He decided to play miracle shooter instead of helping the team by finding the decker and engaging in cybercombat. We already know he didn't set up the teams wireless defenses when they meet or Sammy wouldn't be using his own logic to defend his eyes.

Rest of Sammies team: Hope they brought a bunch of guards to the random encounter.

Decker: Complex action data spike attack, This will be the hackers cybercombat + logic, we will say he is amazing at this and give him 16 dice, against the the sam's intuition, because once again the decker didn't set the device up and the firewall and we will assume the the sam didn't buy a link that had a good firewall. So 3 dice? if we buy hits the decker gets 3 net. And we will say he was set up for attack in the random encounter so this is 9 damage. Then the eyes get to resist the damage with rating, not alpha,  2, + firewall, shyte link 1 so that means 8 damage gets through. Since the eyes are device rating 2 it has 8 boxes and is bricked.

Sammies turn: Switch interface mode or device mode or what not, simple or free action depending on GM to DNI to the Guns smart gun camera continue to kill but remembers to have a word with the teams decker for being a tool.

In this situation we took many of the ways a sam or anyone can use to keep a hacker from bricking their stuff away from him we could have even took running silent away but that would be too much I think.

1. Let the hacker set up your preferences, you will use his will, logic, and intuition to defend yourself in matrix stuff.
2. Run Silent. If they are running silent then they will take a -2 which makes you harder to brick.
3. have two grid subscriptions so you can be on a grid that is not likely to be used by the corp you are hitting. this means they are crossing girds to hack you, another -2. this puts their 16 dice down to a 12, more than likely or they have to run hot and your decker can spot them easier.
4. Layer hidden icons puts the perceiver on a random chance to get the right one. The more the better.
5. slave to a blue defender, it has a 7 firewall, this means with the above you are looking at a 12+ defense versus their 12 attack. I like those odds.
6. Make sure your decker actually cares about defending you instead of trying to brick stuff, as it is way to slow and they could be engaging in combat, suppressive firing down a group of guards, keeping other guards from knowing that you are here by setting off a jammer to cut communications, give teamwork bonuses through their leadership skill, throwing a flash bag, or anything that is much more effective when helping the team.
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« Reply #52 on: (15:57:36/06-27-18) »
The way RAW is on spotting matrix icons, spending only 1 action to identify the device you intend to hack is pretty improbably low.

Per RAW, you pick at random which hidden icon you're identifying.  All someone has to do is carry around a roll of a couple dozen (or hundred!) stealth tags and he's functionally unhackable.

Marcus

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« Reply #53 on: (16:12:05/06-27-18) »
I certainly agree they made it impossible to be a Decker rigger at least out of starting resources, I still don't see that as a bad thing. Rigger is a separate archetype just as decker is; creating role protection is good game design. While I understand the frustration of going to the Priority over the BP, it is classic component of the game, and it has it's uses.  I disagree with the statement that you can't make a combat decker. It's certainly possible, sure odds are you won't be as fast the as a full on street sam, but my last combat decker had decent initiative, 20 dice soak, decent dodge,  21 dice for heavy pistols, and melee'd with 18 all while decking with solid pools. So you can certainly achieve decent combat results.

I agree with your assessment concerning gear hacking in past editions in general certainly concerning the direct fact I agree that how it was. I still don't feel like everyone is screwed over by it. When i completed my CIS degree I made a course on computer consturtion, and we quickly released was, eventually we will have computer in everything. Computer in your shoes to tell you how slipper the ground is, or how many steps you took, or where you dropped your left shoe. Computers in your coat to control how warm it is, so it can turn on the heating or cooling system. Computers in chopsticks so they can play logos while you use them. There nothing wrong or unrealistic about the reality all of that should exist and further that it should be hackable. So I just don't see how that upsets the apple cart. The places we are concerned about are Combat as it's always a question of action economy, and can decker fulfill their role on runs, I think they can. Are you better or worse off if the decker starts bricking guns? Trying to create perfect invulnerable character isn't very interesting' playing superman isn't fun for very long. Adding a brick proof alternative isn't hard or expensive, should you run afoul of situation that requires it. But the path least resistance say it's not that huge a problem generally.
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« Reply #54 on: (17:02:09/06-27-18) »
Being able to brick things is hardly some terrible reality of the system. Further it's relationship to nostalgia is a best tenuous. It was possible to hack gear in 3rd, but it was never done, at any table i was at. The action economy on was terrible, the most common decking builds from third i was used  was a datajack bearing mage, who also was a great decker. Bring back Deckers after the complete destruction of the archetype in 4th is perfectly reasonable thing to do. In a very real sense, Deckers were at the heart of Shadowrun sense first. Essentially all supplements have been written with perspective of a group of wise cracking deckers. It get hard to justify that when there are no more deckers. So I would call the restoration of the Archetype more along the lines of Common sense, then some sort of twisted Nostalgia based emotional silliness. Giving decker the ability to disable basically any unprotected tech also fits within their bailiwick. I don't think it makes them overly strong, and how many times have you seen stuff bricked in 5th? It's still just not the en vogue method of hacking.
Let me break down my thoughts on it.

First, the nostalgia train of going back to something like the old Matrix (because its only crashed twice, causing untold devastation each time, so what could possibly go wrong with going back to that model?) had ripple effects throughout all the matrix-users. The de facto class separation of riggers and deckers, making it impossible for anyone to make a hybrid style or do both was intentional, and a seriously craptacular idea at the same time. When the average group is 4-5 people, with only one of them being a Matrix type, that leaves gaping holes in your squad if someone can't at least sing a few bars on the other side of that duality. And because of the resources required for decks/RCCs and the return of the godawful Priority system, it is essentially impossible for anyone else to sideline as a decker/rigger to cover those roles.

Second, the fact that you're basically getting locked in to one of a few play styles bugs the everloving fuck out of me. In 4e, you could still be the 'old style' combat hacker, going in with the group and getting the intel off a standalone system and then helping with the gun battles as you got out of dodge. You could also be the man in the van, running overwatch, editing cameras on the fly, opening doors, suppressing alarms, and generally making life as easy as possible for the rest of the group. Or you could do a hybrid of these, kicking back in the van while you have a drone presence going with the group, either as an additional gun, or to tap into standalone systems for you, and so on.

Third, the reason that no one hacked gear in 3rd was because most gear worth hacking was secured unless you got a direct connection. Hell, in 4th it was pretty much the same, unless you managed to hack into someone's PAN. But even then, it was still a situation where if you'd gotten to that point there were probably better things you could be doing to the enemy than bricking their guns. But when they fucked matrix players over and took away the option for hackers to be anything but deckers or technomancers (and the absolute assraping TMs got is another topic entirely), they decided to fuck everyone else over as well by making ALL gear hackable unless you deliberately removed functionality, and made it nigh impossible for someone who wasn't a decker to properly secure their gear (while TMs can't secure their own CLOTHES), so that everyone got that trickle down fucking.
[/size]

That's one perspective. But my experience with 4e is very different, as well as that old "nostalgia train" as you put it.
But first, some perspective of where I am coming from. I have played SR since 1e, and have played it alot; averaging a least on game a week since forever. While I was overseas working, It was more like 3 or 4 games a week. (Simply because your entertainment options are limited when leaving the building is deadly, you don't speak the language or share the culture)  My player base was around 30 players and about 6 different GMs at the high end of playing, so not just a limited couple of players playing all the time. (although I do have the same group of friends, that I still play with, playing some of our most original characters in to this day; basically a continuous 30 year campaign..)

Editions 1 through 3 where steady improvements in the "floating target number" system of SR, with totally different mechanics and attributes than what we are used to in 4e/5e. They are much more complex, and came with their own hosts of problems for game play.

Some of the problems, in a general sense I will lay out here.

1: Initiative System was a "Top Down" mechanic. Which meant you were forced to build EVERY character for the highest initiative posssible - no exceptions, or you never did a single thing. Ever.
2: Combat system system and mechanics favored front loading of attacks along with dual wielding for the most effective damage output possible, which enabled combat to be finished by the as little as the 2nd character, negating the actions of the other 2-3 players entirely.
3: Vehicle movement. So no real change there :P
4: Rigging, Rigging combat. These were just bonkers! going from "why would anyone ever rig?" to "why would any ever NOT rig?!?" and back again through the editions.
5: Magic. I loved it. I hated it. I stilled played a mage while hitting myself in the face repeatedly with the rulebook...

So yea, Editions come and go, some of these problems got better as the mechanics got changed, some problems got worse. But 2 problems remained the same almost universally.
1: team disconnect.
2: The mini games.

The Team disconnect came from Riggers. At their hayday, a Rigger's only limitation was the range of the drone. People talk about "the Rigger in the van" Well, Fuck that! Why take an expensive vehicle to a run, that you know the shit is going to hit the fan, when you can safely send your drones in from the barrens. Let those neck-beard, lead farting, bullet sponges walk or bring their own transport!

Generally speaking what happened was the Rigger would set up at one spot, then the team would go in with a dummy vehicle, or if the Rigger was nice a remote droned vehicle (as the Rigger didn't need to be in the car to rig it!). The Rigger would then operate his drones from his original spot, thus never placing himself in direct danger.

This also created a time sink, as by the mechanics of the day, every drone on "AI" still required operator rolls every round, for each drone. This would lead to the Rigger spending large amounts of time rolling multiple dice for multiple drones, and generally slowed down game play to a crawl if the Rigger used more then 2 or 3 drones.

Given the mechanics of the game, and the way various elements came together, this made many players very resentful of Riggers... (and the arguments that would erupt over, "compensation" that would go on...)

2: The "Mini games", Or as put by the rules,  Decking, was a cluster-fuck. No two ways about it. While the idea was pretty cool, and more closely followed the engineering principles of an actual circuit, the actual practice of hacking is where it broke down. From the Decking side, to open the door to get the team into the facility sounds like a simple task. You jack in, you browse to the correct door file, edit file, jack out. Simple and done right? NOPE. To jack in required up to 4 tests. Then you had to scan the node (test), then you had to navigate to the next node (up to 4 tests), Scan the node (test), then move to the next node.... And so on and so until you got to the correct node, which could  be 3 to 30 node jumps away!!
And, while you were doing that, the Matrix was looking for you! (which required tests by the GM, and invoked counter tests by the Decker!). All said, on an easy designed system, that simple job of just opening the first door to start the run could take upwards of 20 table minutes to complete. 20 minutes that the rest of the team is standing there. Forget hacking the network to get the paydata, the GM and the Decker will do that an other time, as that could take up to 4 hours!

Something had to change.

With 4e, we saw a total revamp of the mechanics and foundation of SR. Other than the name, nothing stayed the same.
Target numbers were static, but the dice now changed. Dice pools of the first 3 editions where totally gone, replaced by Edge. (which was also a mechanic in 1 to 3e known as Good Karma - just more costly to use) Attributes were expanded with the inclusion of an additional mental stat, on top of Edge. The mechanics behind how everything worked was rewritten and reworked. Mostly for the better.

The 2 biggest changes however were to Rigging and Decking. So much so, Decking wasn't even a thing anymore. It was Hacking. And they introduced Technomancers......(Which was just slang for a Decker, before Decker got picked up! Don't get me started.) The elements that had made Rigging and Decking separate specializations had been reworked with the rules and formed into what was essentially one element. For better or worse.

However, by far, the most damaging change that I saw introduced was "Agents". From what I have seen and experienced, Agents killed BOTH archtypes in 4e. Thanks to the way they had designed the matrix for 4e, and then later introduced other elements, they allowed for the Agent to come in, and through exploits in the rules, subvert both archtypes. Very shortly after the introduction of Agent programs, Actual "Rigger" characters, and even "Hacker" Character became a thing of the past, as a simple Agent program could do the same job without the investment of karma into skills that a Rigger or Decker would need.

For fuck sakes, there posts on this very forum about Agent "Gun Drones" - NOT drones with guns.... but GUNs with Agent software in them and why they should be able to target and shoot people without an operator!

With the inclusion the of a buy for cash ready made hacker/rigger, they broke the matrix :( And don't get me started on the Technomancer problem. Because it really was a problem in 4e. And I really think that by the end, the writters realized they had opened Pandora's box....


And here we are now in 5e, with everything getting a reboot again. Some things got a huge change, some things got a minor change. And, of course, some things are still broken, and some people are still not happy.

But at least we have Samurai, Mages, adepts, deckers, technomancers and Riggers instead of Samurai, Mages, Adepts, technomancers and Agent programs.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

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« Reply #55 on: (17:38:07/06-27-18) »
I certainly agree they made it impossible to be a Decker rigger at least out of starting resources,

You can build a Decker with a VCR, an RCC and an Army of Killer Robots.  Easy-Peasy.  Your stat array is a sad joke, and you're even more Matrix dependent than a Technomancer, but it's not hard.  A resources, B skills, C Stats, D Human, E Magic.  Level 1 VCR, Vulcan Liege-lord modded to add Sleaze, max logic, soft cap Intuition and Reaction, dump the rest, 5 Edge, whatever your favorite Logic boosts are.  (I go Cerebral boost 2 and Narco / Psyche to get Logic 10, YMMV).  If you can squeeze in Reaction Enhancers that's cool.  (Data Jacks, Antenna, Smartlink...yada,yada,yada).  Leaves you around 200K for your squad of killer Robots, and your Drone carrier. 

Anyway, you're a Rigger and your best skills are Computer, Hacking, and Electronic Warfare.  Because as it turns out you don't need other skills to be a Rigger, true story.  Toss some points into Pilot ground vehicle, automatics, sneak, hardware, software, Pilot Aircraft, maybe a single point in Pilot Walker.  Done. 

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« Reply #56 on: (18:02:51/06-27-18) »
Good example and even better tips at the end.

I love posts like this. Hope you don't mind if I pick it apart...?


At this point it would matter if the GM rules ...
The eyes, with all the vision enhancements such as camera, smartlink, low-light vision, etc..., is one single icon.


We will also say that the Sam is not wearing a ballistics mask, another icon or grouping of icons.
If you are looking specifically for the icon of eyes you will not randomly have to choose between a ballistic mask and the eyes. If your matrix perception test is successful you will spot the device icon of the eyes.


...unless the smart gun is an icon separate from the gun...
The firearm, with smartgun, ammo, camera, etc..., is one single icon.


Sammies deckers turn: He decided to play miracle shooter instead of helping the team by finding the decker and engaging in cybercombat...
Unless the enemy deckers cyberdeck is within 100 meters of sammies deckers cyberdeck and the enemy decker is not running silent - sammies decker will not automatically spot the persona icon of the enemy decker.


...against the the sam's intuition, because once again the decker didn't set the device up and the firewall and we will assume the the sam didn't buy a link that had a good firewall. So 3 dice?
The sam will oppose the test with Intuition + firewall of the device
(Maybe this is what you meant)


Then the eyes get to resist the damage with rating, not alpha
Was this clarified by someone somewhere...?

SR5 p. 421 Wireless Functionality
Unless otherwise specified in an itemís description, the general Device Rating can be found on the Device Ratings table.

Gear like data lock, RFID-tags, smart firing platform and various electronic accessories etc explicitly state that it "has a Device Rating equal to its Rating" or have a device rating listed in a table.

Cybereyes, does not.

According to the table on SR5 p. 421 alphaware have device rating of 3.


Sammies turn: Switch interface mode or device mode or what not
Switch Interface Mode is the Simple Action that you use to change between AR and VR.

A direct neural interface, or DNI, connects your brain to electronic devices (such as your camera on your smartgun). The sam doesn't need to take a special action to fire at his targets via the on-board camera of his smartgun as long as the smartgun is wireless enabled and working in concert with his DNI (or wireless disabled but connected directly via a cable to his cyberjack). Rather than taking the Blind Fire modifier of -6 dice a shooter with bricked eyes can fire their smartgun equipped weapon by looking through the on-board camera to see where itís aimed by taking a -3 modifier (also useful if you for example want to fire at your targets from behind a corner).

If you want to broadcast the live video feed from the on-board camera of your smartgun to someone else you use the Send Message Simple Action.

It is a free action to turn off wireless in one single device. The action is called Linked device change mode Free Action and can be found on SR5 p. 163. According to SR5 p. 421 Turning It Off you may also spend a free action to turn off wireless in all your devices. One, All or Nothing. There does not seem to be a middle ground where you can choose a number of devices you want to turn off while keeping others on-line.

There is also a Complex Action called Reboot Device which could be useful if you want to clear your Persona from Marks or get rid of Garbage In/Garbage Out software changes from one device, such as your firearm.


2. Run Silent. If they are running silent then they will take a -2 which makes you harder to brick.
Running silent can in some situations actually appear suspicious and inspire an enemy decker (or a police patrol..... or patrol IC if you are a decker hacking into a host) to come looking for you (but yes, normally when you are actually on a job it is better to run silent or maybe even better to turn wireless off completely).

Unlike popular belief, running silent does not make you invisible or anything. Game mechanic wise silent running icons are actually not hard to see at all (if you set your filters looking for silent running icons it just take a single hit on a simple Matrix Perception test to see every single silent running icon in the vicinity - to see all of them at once is basically as obvious as noticing a neon sign or running crowd). No, the tricky part is to get a single silent running (or distant) device icon into "focus" so you can interact with it (or "spot" it as the book describe it). And even this is not very tricky as you normally only need one or two (or maybe three) hits to spot it anyway (when running silent your device normally only roll your Logic when opposing to be found). And two hits on a perception test is basically as obvious as a street sign....


3. have two grid subscriptions so you can...
An enemy decker can jump between grids without much trouble and technomancers can exist on all grids at once... Unless you are a Rigger or Decker it is almost always better to always always just use the Public Grid. This will almost always impose a negative dice pool modifier of [at least] 2 dice to an enemy decker. Deckers will often not be on the public grid due to the bad connection which mean they take 2 dice penalty for working across grids or they jump to the public grid but then they take 2 dice penalty for using the poor connection of the public grid.


4. Layer hidden icons puts the perceiver on a random chance to get the right one. The more the better.
This only really work if the observer doesn't have any idea at all of what he is looking for. If the observer knows what he is looking for then he will spot it directly with a single successful matrix perception test (even if the icon is running silent on the other side of the world behind layers and layers of hidden icons).


5. slave to a blue defender, it has a 7 firewall, this means with the above you are looking at a 12+ defense versus their 12 attack. I like those odds.
This is a really good advice (just note that due to the rather low device rating you can only slave a total of 9 devices to it and due to the super low data processing rating you basically cannot remote control your vehicle in any semi-dangerous situation at all). This commlink is also chargen legal even if you mod it for hot-sim.

Unless you start with a very tight economy another option would be the Transys Avalon which can be the master for up to 18 slaved devices, is chargen legal (unless you want it modded for hot-sim) and let you remote control your stuff just fine - but it cost 2k more and have one less firewall.


6. Make sure your decker actually cares about defending you instead of trying to brick stuff, as it is way to slow and they could be engaging in combat, suppressive firing down a group of guards, keeping other guards from knowing that you are here by setting off a jammer to cut communications, give teamwork bonuses through their leadership skill, throwing a flash bag, or anything that is much more effective when helping the team.
Agreed.

Bricking stuff is not very efficient at all.

There are better things for your decker to spend his actions on.


The way RAW is on spotting matrix icons...
If you have no idea what you are looking for (not even a single feature of the icon you are looking for) then you may for example still take a matrix perception test to see all silent running icons in the vicinity and then identify then one by one at random. However, this is probably not a very common scenario to be honest.

In most cases you know exactly which icon you are looking for. In the above case, for example, the enemy decker would just take an opposed test to spot "the cybereyes of the street sam".

You can also take an opposed test to directly spot a specific icon no matter how far away it is located.


SR5 p. 235 Matrix Perception Red Box
Hereís a list of some of the things Matrix Perception can tell you.
ē If you know at least one feature of an icon running silent, you can spot the icon (Running Silent, below).


SR5 p. 234 Matrix Perception Spotting Table
Target is Outside 100 meters and is Running Silent: Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test

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« Reply #57 on: (19:14:45/06-27-18) »
Good example and even better tips at the end.

I love posts like this. Hope you don't mind if I pick it apart...?

Anytime. :)

At this point it would matter if the GM rules ...
The eyes, with all the vision enhancements such as camera, smartlink, low-light vision, etc..., is one single icon.


We will also say that the Sam is not wearing a ballistics mask, another icon or grouping of icons.
If you are looking specifically for the icon of eyes you will not randomly have to choose between a ballistic mask and the eyes. If your matrix perception test is successful you will spot the device icon of the eyes.

It was my understanding you had to know a feature of the icon you wished to spot? I guess eyes would cover that but we always ruled it as if you look at the eyes area, basically narrowing the scoop of your icon search you would get all icons of devices in that area. So mask and eyes, or sunglasses and eyes and such.

...unless the smart gun is an icon separate from the gun...
The firearm, with smartgun, ammo, camera, etc..., is one single icon.
The eyes I could see, one control board one device icon but a gun with external smartgun or guncam or laser sight would seem to me to be multiple icons, correct?

Sammies deckers turn: He decided to play miracle shooter instead of helping the team by finding the decker and engaging in cybercombat...
Unless the enemy deckers cyberdeck is within 100 meters of sammies deckers cyberdeck and the enemy decker is not running silent - sammies decker will not automatically spot the persona icon of the enemy decker.
Correct. thanks for the clarification.

...against the the sam's intuition, because once again the decker didn't set the device up and the firewall and we will assume the the sam didn't buy a link that had a good firewall. So 3 dice?
The sam will oppose the test with Intuition + firewall of the device
(Maybe this is what you meant)
It was.

Then the eyes get to resist the damage with rating, not alpha
Was this clarified by someone somewhere...?

SR5 p. 421 Wireless Functionality
Unless otherwise specified in an itemís description, the general Device Rating can be found on the Device Ratings table.

Gear like data lock, RFID-tags, smart firing platform and various electronic accessories etc explicitly state that it "has a Device Rating equal to its Rating" or have a device rating listed in a table.

Cybereyes, does not.

According to the table on SR5 p. 421 alphaware have device rating of 3.

Yes, I was meaning the eyes where not alpha, so they would have a device rating 2 and the commlink was crap so it had a firewall 1 for a total of three dice. It slipped my mind you buy the rating when you buy cyber eyes rather than the basic cyberware rating of 2 by referring to the table. but now I am questioning that. :)

Sammies turn: Switch interface mode or device mode or what not
Switch Interface Mode is the Simple Action that you use to change between AR and VR.

A direct neural interface, or DNI, connects your brain to electronic devices (such as your camera on your smartgun). The sam doesn't need to take a special action to fire at his targets via the on-board camera of his smartgun as long as the smartgun is wireless enabled and working in concert with his DNI (or wireless disabled but connected directly via a cable to his cyberjack). Rather than taking the Blind Fire modifier of -6 dice a shooter with bricked eyes can fire their smartgun equipped weapon by looking through the on-board camera to see where itís aimed by taking a -3 modifier (also useful if you for example want to fire at your targets from behind a corner).

If you want to broadcast the live video feed from the on-board camera of your smartgun to someone else you use the Send Message Simple Action.

It is a free action to turn off wireless in one single device. The action is called Linked device change mode Free Action and can be found on SR5 p. 163. According to SR5 p. 421 Turning It Off you may also spend a free action to turn off wireless in all your devices. One, All or Nothing. There does not seem to be a middle ground where you can choose a number of devices you want to turn off while keeping others on-line.

There is also a Complex Action called Reboot Device which could be useful if you want to clear your Persona from Marks or get rid of Garbage In/Garbage Out software changes from one device, such as your firearm.

Thank you for this I was not sure what action would be appropriate but I knew it would be less than a simple and was possible to do.

2. Run Silent. If they are running silent then they will take a -2 which makes you harder to brick.
Running silent can in some situations actually appear suspicious and inspire an enemy decker (or a police patrol..... or patrol IC if you are a decker hacking into a host) to come looking for you (but yes, normally when you are actually on a job it is better to run silent or maybe even better to turn wireless off completely).

Unlike popular belief, running silent does not make you invisible or anything. Game mechanic wise silent running icons are actually not hard to see at all (if you set your filters looking for silent running icons it just take a single hit on a simple Matrix Perception test to see every single silent running icon in the vicinity - to see all of them at once is basically as obvious as noticing a neon sign or running crowd). No, the tricky part is to get a single silent running (or distant) device icon into "focus" so you can interact with it (or "spot" it as the book describe it). And even this is not very tricky as you normally only need one or two (or maybe three) hits to spot it anyway (when running silent your device normally only roll your Logic when opposing to be found). And two hits on a perception test is basically as obvious as a street sign....

We always looked at it as if your commlink was running silent you could get into some trouble, but you could run other icons silent without problems.

We always looked at this similarly we just used the invisible analogy. Much like not broadcasting your SSID. An icon running silent was invisible, not listed in a wifi list, but you could ask on a perception test if there are any in a vicinity, basically turning your network adaptor to promiscuous mode. Then if you narrow the search, i.e. know a feature of a running icon like its location you could spot it and actually therefore see it. Curious if there was a bit of fluff or what not that supports either case. You seem to know the book better than myself, care to expound upon this for my knowledge?


3. have two grid subscriptions so you can...
An enemy decker can jump between grids without much trouble and technomancers can exist on all grids at once... Unless you are a Rigger or Decker it is almost always better to always always just use the Public Grid. This will almost always impose a negative dice pool modifier of [at least] 2 dice to an enemy decker. Deckers will often not be on the public grid due to the bad connection which mean they take 2 dice penalty for working across grids or they jump to the public grid but then they take 2 dice penalty for using the poor connection of the public grid.

Yes you are correct, I was looking at the fact that hopping grids will take them time and another perception test if that are not randomly on the same one as you or just take the -2. Any negative when trying to save a piece of gear from being bricked to me is a good thing. It doesn't make you full proof but it does delay them which gives your teams decker more time as well as you more time to geek their team or them.

4. Layer hidden icons puts the perceiver on a random chance to get the right one. The more the better.
This only really work if the observer doesn't have any idea at all of what he is looking for. If the observer knows what he is looking for then he will spot it directly with a single successful matrix perception test (even if the icon is running silent on the other side of the world behind layers and layers of hidden icons).


5. slave to a blue defender, it has a 7 firewall, this means with the above you are looking at a 12+ defense versus their 12 attack. I like those odds.
This is a really good advice (just note that due to the rather low device rating you can only slave a total of 9 devices to it and due to the super low data processing rating you basically cannot remote control your vehicle in any semi-dangerous situation at all). This commlink is also chargen legal even if you mod it for hot-sim.

Unless you start with a very tight economy another option would be the Transys Avalon which can be the master for up to 18 slaved devices, is chargen legal (unless you want it modded for hot-sim) and let you remote control your stuff just fine - but it cost 2k more and have one less firewall.


6. Make sure your decker actually cares about defending you instead of trying to brick stuff, as it is way to slow and they could be engaging in combat, suppressive firing down a group of guards, keeping other guards from knowing that you are here by setting off a jammer to cut communications, give teamwork bonuses through their leadership skill, throwing a flash bag, or anything that is much more effective when helping the team.
Agreed.

Bricking stuff is not very efficient at all.

There are better things for your decker to spend his actions on.


The way RAW is on spotting matrix icons...
If you have no idea what you are looking for (not even a single feature of the icon you are looking for) then you may for example still take a matrix perception test to see all silent running icons in the vicinity and then identify then one by one at random. However, this is probably not a very common scenario to be honest.

In most cases you know exactly which icon you are looking for. In the above case, for example, the enemy decker would just take an opposed test to spot "the cybereyes of the street sam".

You can also take an opposed test to directly spot a specific icon no matter how far away it is located.


SR5 p. 235 Matrix Perception Red Box
Hereís a list of some of the things Matrix Perception can tell you.
ē If you know at least one feature of an icon running silent, you can spot the icon (Running Silent, below).


SR5 p. 234 Matrix Perception Spotting Table
Target is Outside 100 meters and is Running Silent: Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test

I think this boils down to what you and your GM think is a feature. The more I think about it feature could be cybereyes as form dictates function and cyber eyes could be different than a pair of sunglasses.

The icon being invisible to me was just the way it seemed to read to me, but the example on page 254 seems to imply that you notice the icon running silent, like it wasn't invisible. Any more solid evidence of this?

This would also depend on whether these icons are invisable and you
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« Reply #58 on: (20:21:15/06-28-18) »
I certainly agree they made it impossible to be a Decker rigger at least out of starting resources,

I'm not sure what you mean.  It is very easy to make a Decker / Rigger in 5e.

All you have to do is take your Decker...
And you're done.

"Wha-wha-wha-WHHAAAAATTT?!??!???"

That is all you need.

5e took the red-haired stepchild, the Rigger, and pissed all over it.  The only thing a Rigger can do that a Decker can't is Jump In to a vehicle/drone.

  • You don't need a VCR to control drones - they can be voice controlled for frags sake.
  • You don't need a VCR to use a RCC.
  • For that matter, you don't need a RCC to control multiple drones.  Bear in mind, there are several reasons why you would want to, my only point here is that it is far from required.

Once you got a Datajack, you are as good as any Rigger* - minus Jumping In, and the benefits that go with that.

*Obviously there will be some discrepancies depending on Attribute and Skill selection, but no additional gear is required to fill the Rigger role.

« Reply #59 on: (20:23:16/06-28-18) »
Valid point, for the most part. 

A VCR is kind of a big deal to making Drones relevant though.  You'll blow way more money in autosofts than a VCR to make your drones be worth a damn while not being jumped in, plus you get the VCR bonuses...