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So uh, bricking guns?

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Rymdkejsaren

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« Reply #30 on: (15:30:10/06-22-18) »
I'm not looking for realism, just believability. I know the setting is pulpy, retro cyberpunk and there are a ton of things that don't make sense; it's a throwback to ideas of what future technology might be that are 30 years old. Though I find it clashes sometimes when it appears the writers have tried to upgrade it with modern ideas, but have only gone half the way. Side note: I don't find the fact that the setting has dragons and magic relevant to my question. Guns aren't powered by mana, and even magic follows rules in Shadowrun.

The book states in several places that ammo with casing is still a thing (because people want to look cool) and that only a few select guns have electric firing mechanisms. Many of the pictured guns have hammers, and they don't all come with built-in smartgun systems. So I was confused, and I came here asking because I was genuinely interested if there was an explanation that I had somehow missed. There doesn't appear to be. That's fine, although I wish it had been expressed more clearly in the book.

What it comes down to is simple: if I were a player and someone melted my revolver because it had a laser sight attached to it, I'd be confused as hell and I would feel cheated. I don't want to put my players through that, so I'll houserule it somehow so that it maintains believability in my eyes. I'm not sure how, yet, but at least I know where things stand.

Thanks to everyone who helped clear this up. Never stop running!  8)

Redwulfe

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« Reply #31 on: (15:54:28/06-22-18) »
I think that is the disconnect. you seem to think that a gun that does not have the electronic firing mechanism descriptor has no electronic components, even though the book say that all of them do.

Mechanical guns, those without the descriptor, still have some electronic components they just use a mechanical means to spark the primer. Basically a firing pin. Electronic Firing mechanism means they use an electronic spark to ignite the propellent instead.

When you look at a gasoline powered engine you would describe it as a mechanical engine even though it has a computer. And if only a few cars had the descriptor electric engine it would not mean that all other cars had no electronic components.

Attaching a laser sight has nothing to do with being able to brick a gun. The electronic components in the mechanical gun has everything to do with bricking a gun.

If something is realistic shouldn't it be believable? you could be right but I am confused on that one.
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Hobbes

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« Reply #32 on: (16:01:05/06-22-18) »
What it comes down to is simple: if I were a player and someone melted my revolver because it had a laser sight attached to it,

To be clear, you don't need some electronic gadget strapped on to a piece of gear to brick that gear.  Everything is wireless, everything can be bricked.  Some things that doesn't matter much.  Bricked bootlaces don't become untied, they just no longer send you a handy warning when they're getting loose.  Knives still stab just fine, you just don't get a GPS signal from them so you can find them in the dark after you've thrown them.  Your pants no longer tell you when your fly is down, or if they need to be ironed.  Stuff like that.

Guns, First Aid Kits, Drones, Cars, Cyberware, Commlinks, Assorted sensors and whatnot all stop working when bricked.  Mostly to give Deckers a reason to keep hacking in combat, not for any "realism". 

As mentioned, if you want gear that doesn't get bricked you want to use Throwback items or turn off Wireless functionality.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #33 on: (16:17:45/06-22-18) »
Also: The gun isn't melted down. It can be easily fixed again, doesn't require you to do a massive repair. It just had some electronics fried, resulting in it no longer firing. And yes, you can have a gun without electronics, a throwback. But then you can't install a lasersight on it and get the wireless bonus from that, because it doesn't have the electronics in there to support it.

If your players don't want bricked guns, they shouldn't use wireless bonuses on them. It's that simple. You don't use a commlink if you fear it gets hacked, you don't run your cyberarms in wireless, you don't run your gun wireless. But that means you can't get called, some actions become Simple or Complex, and you don't get the wireless bonus.

If you're not fair and open to your players, then yeah they might feel cheated. But that is something you control as a GM, it's not a flaw in the material.

If you want to houserule this, I assume you're also houseruling Gremlins to no longer apply to firearms?
« Last Edit: (16:25:02/06-22-18) by Michael Chandra »
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Hobbes

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« Reply #34 on: (17:10:38/06-22-18) »
Also: The gun isn't melted down. It can be easily fixed again, doesn't require you to do a massive repair.

That's an important point.  "Bricking" has really the wrong context for Matrix damage.  IRL a "Bricked" item is typically done for.  In Shadowrun a device that has it's Matrix Condition Monitor filled is an easy fix.  One Hardware + Logic test later the item is returned to functionality.  I forget the time interval on the extended test, but get one box back and the device is working again (with penalties). 

A 2 Logic, 1 Hardware Troll Sami with a Commlink and basic tools can fix a few boxes of Matrix damage given a bit of time.

Also, repairing Matrix Damage has no cost, just time.  If you've got a Hardware toolkit and a Commlink you can probably get enough dice to get a box back by defaulting.  Don't glitch though  :  )

Edit: Base time one hour, no penalties for Matrix Damage.  So, yeah, about an hour to get your Matrix damaged device running again.  Just need a Hardware tool kit and a Matrix connection.  A 2 Karma investment in Hardware doesn't hurt. 
« Last Edit: (20:16:10/06-22-18) by Hobbes »

Xenon

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« Reply #35 on: (19:47:18/06-22-18) »
Fluff-wise bricking is really spectacular and during a combat situation a firearm will be rendered pretty useless at least for the duration of the fight, but crunch-wise you don't need much down-time at all to restore at least one box of matrix damage (which is enough for full functionality).

With a few successes it just take between 4-8 minutes.

Streetsam_Crunch

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« Reply #36 on: (04:01:51/06-23-18) »
I'm with Rymdkejsaren in that if it isn't smartlink wireless enabled, or otherwise has its 'guts' on some kind of wireless capability, I just don't see that level of control of one from the outside. Seems like too much of a risk. If your gun can get hacked pretty much no matter what, why not *always* get the smartlink?

Like I said, I kind of see it as common sense. If just possessing a gun means you're likely to get it bricked, there's no reason NOT to go old-school and get ones with the old fashioned hammer mechanics, or just go full-bore and get the smartlink (and a hefty agent program to protect it) with very little differentiation in between, and runners arguing the merits of each in the downtime.

Now, because it's basically said that guns are off-the-shelf tagged to display on the matrix as guns (and the corresponding license to carry it in the user's PAN- Would you like to know more? *click*) that doesn't mean a decker can't mess with them somehow, like other discussions with the wrapper program and such.

In my mind IF there was a way to brick it quickly, it would be that the gun would *require* that license and ID in the user's PAN in order to operate- which would double as a safety feature of the gun as well since nobody other than the 'owner' of the gun should be able to fire it... like an automatic safety feature. A Decker would then, theoretically, be able to quickly alter the protocol enough to have the gun not recognize its authorized user (probably nobody else either- that would require more time and hacking)

However, that's not stated in the books, and besides what runner would keep that kind of liability/identity attached to their guns? At that point, as I said, everyone would equip smartlinks and go wired all the time to bypass it or go full primitive.

I think the threat of hacking guns is more a risk from using wireless smartlink capabilities. Most of the examples I've seen for it *seem* to work on that assumption as well.

I just find it hard to presume that *all* firearms are somehow subject to hacking, is all.

Quote from: Michael Chandra
If you want to houserule this, I assume you're also houseruling Gremlins to no longer apply to firearms?

Not necessary. I wouldn't. Gremlins states all technological devices, not just wireless ones, so there's no distinction. Plus the reasons for that quality can come from a number of things- from just somehow being unlucky with tech, to being cursed by someone in their backstory, to spirit problems or mental issues (my combat mage, Hodge, was a squatter/wanderer/hobo in Chicago that really was uncomfortable being around anything technological... they had 'the hum' to them. Wired buildings had 'the hum' in the walls, and fates forbid he had to get on an elevator- he always took the stairs, no matter how high, also had a tendency to lose/break his cheap comlinks- "Hobo With a Shotgun" and "Gremlins" rank 2 ;) )


Crunch~

Rymdkejsaren

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« Reply #37 on: (04:11:50/06-23-18) »
Hey, I'm happy to listen to everyone's thoughts and opinions and I'm fine if people don't agree with me. We all run the game the way we want, that's the beauty of the hobby. I can chop Shadowrun up and sell it for parts when I GM, and someone else can run it die-hard by the book. It doesn't matter what others think as long as the people involved are having fun!

Peace out.  :)

Streetsam_Crunch

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« Reply #38 on: (04:18:17/06-23-18) »
True story, chummer! ;D

That's why most of the time I preface with "I think" or "In my games..." Every GM and play group has its own style and expectations. It's one of the things I enjoy when I play at cons, or when I get to play with other GM's (since I run it with our group). Even if there's differences, it's always fun and interesting seeing what comes out of any given run.

Crunch~

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #39 on: (04:26:55/06-23-18) »
Huh? Why would we not be talking about hacking guns with wireless bonuses? We were talking about toys that have wireless bonuses after all. Of course your gun isn't hackable if it's not employing a wireless thing and is offline.

As for Gremlins: if the gun isn't complicated enough to become temporarily (until you do a free repair) unusable when its electronics are fried, why would it be complicated enough to malfunction?
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Xenon

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« Reply #40 on: (05:32:47/06-23-18) »
I just find it hard to presume that *all* firearms are somehow subject to hacking, is all.
I can't find anything in the rules as written suggesting that you can only brick a wireless enabled firearm if it have an internal smartgun system.


Rather, the general consensus for SR5 seem to be that:
- If it is wireless enabled it can be bricked.
- If it is not wireless enabled then it cannot be bricked.


According to the book any wireless enabled device (such as a wireless enabled firearm with or without internal or external smartgun) have a matrix condition monitor:

SR5 p. Matrix Damage
Each device in the Matrix has a Matrix Condition Monitor. This represents the deviceís ability to handle damaging code designed to make the device do things itís not supposed to do. As a device gets damaged, it overheats, suffers power spikes and dips, shorts out as components start failing, and eventually becomes damaged beyond functionality.


According to the book the act of bricking a wireless enabled device (such as a wireless enabled firearm with or without internal or external smartgun) is supposedly always quite spectacular:

SR5 p. 228 Bricking
Devices that are bricked never fail non-spectacularly. Smoke, sparks, pops, bangs, sizzles, nasty smells, and occasionally even small fires are common features of a device in the process of becoming a brick.


According to the book this is what actually happen when you brick a wireless enabled device (such as a wireless enabled firearm with or without internal or external smartgun):

SR5 p. 228 Bricking
If a device is bricked, it stops working: ... mechanical parts are fused or gummed up with melted internals...The firing pin on an assault rifle might not work, but its bayonet works just fine for stabbing smug hackers.

Rymdkejsaren

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« Reply #41 on: (06:28:08/06-23-18) »
I think it's my mistake for putting this in the rules section of the forums instead of somewhere more appropriate, like general chat. I didn't intend to question the rules on the subject, which I find are quite clear. I wanted a believable answer to the question I know my players will ask if I play it by the rules: "How is it possible to burn out a revolver with an electronic attack?"

Xenon

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« Reply #42 on: (08:46:46/06-23-18) »
"How is it possible to burn out a revolver with an electronic attack?"
Just like a modern car contain a shitload of electronics and doesn't even have an ignition that is triggered by a mechanical key, 50+ years from now all revolvers will also contain a shit load of electronics (electronic trigger mechanism, electronic triggered caseless ammo, electronic sensors for checking ammo types and levels, small on-board computer, wireless transmitters etc etc). Because authors of SR5 wanted to make deckers and TMs useful in combat they gave them the option to send harmful instructions (SR5 p. 239 Data Spike) to your wireless firearm which will cause them internals to overheat and melt which will fuse or gum up the mechanical parts of the firearm which will prevent you from firing it.

As your firearm receives matrix damage it will suffer power spikes and dips and the AROs displaying ammo levels and ammo types etc will start to flicker and short out as components start failing. To prevent further damage you may spend a free action to turn wireless off. The firearm will work flawless as long as it have at least one box left in its matrix condition monitor. If it gets fully bricked it generally take 4-8 minutes or so to repair it well enough to restore full functionality.

If you are paranoid you also have the option to rip out all the electronics and convert your revolver into a fully mechanical device. This is resolved with a Hardware + Logic [Mental] (8, 10 minutes) Extended Test (SR5 p. 421 Throwbacks). A throwback revolver is immune to bricking attempts.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #43 on: (08:52:52/06-23-18) »
"How is it possible to burn out a revolver with an electronic attack?"
The same way a revolver can provide your smart link with info about barrel temperature and ammo count, can let you fire it or pop it open for recharging with a thought and can connect to the Cloud for some cloud computing to provide you with extra dice: electronic technobabble. And when those electronics short out, you need to grab a toolkit and go in there to fix the short. If that's not enough for you, then just remove all wireless bonuses and make them wired.
« Last Edit: (09:57:07/06-23-18) by Michael Chandra »
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Mirikon

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« Reply #44 on: (09:47:08/06-23-18) »
Bricking guns was one of those stupid things the devs put in this edition because they deliberately killed the hacker in the van running overwatch, editing cameras on the fly, and so on. Part of running the nostalgia train full speed with the new matrix. It isn't as bad as what they did to TMs though.
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