NEWS

So uh, bricking guns?

  • 102 Replies
  • 2815 Views

Rymdkejsaren

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 16
« on: (08:42:19/06-21-18) »
Right. I had a good search around on the subject but to my surprise can't find anything on the subject (though I'm sure it must have been discussed).

Is there a remotely believable explanation anywhere to how it's possible to brick items whose functions are primarily mechanical in nature? I'm mostly thinking of guns, but any vehicle running a combustion engine also springs to mind.

The idea that I can attack a gun from the matrix and make it completely useless is, to me, ridiculous. Now, I get it: they want to make hackers more useful and it's another reason for people to bring swords to a gunfight. But I also like a modicum of believability, and if I can't sell it to myself, I know I won't sell it to my players.

I may just house rule and say that bricking a gun means you knock out any wireless functions, and the overload of the electrical systems causes some damage to the mechanical components of the gun, reducing its accuracy by 1.

But I'm happy to hear any other thoughts or ideas.

Marcus

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2160
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #1 on: (09:09:34/06-21-18) »
Guns with a smartgun system are electronically controlled (including firing, and ejecting clips), thus when you brick them they no longer function. You can of course still purchase guns that are purely mechanical, and yes those cannot be bricked, they just aren't going to be as accurate as those with those with a smartgun system.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Rymdkejsaren

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 16
« Reply #2 on: (09:53:58/06-21-18) »
Hmm, OK. So stock guns basically come smartgun ready (because it's assumed people want that), and the smartgun system is deeply integrated with the mechanical parts of the gun so if they fry the gun is unusable. I can accept that.

« Reply #3 on: (09:57:33/06-21-18) »
Likewise, for Internal Combustion engines if the spark plugs' computer controlled ignition sequencing is disabled, no more vroom vroom.

« Reply #4 on: (10:00:08/06-21-18) »
Oh, and keep in mind bricking is one of the least efficient things for a decker to do in combat.   It's sad :(

The action economy to hack a gun to death is terrible.  First you have to spend a complex action to find the gun's matrix icon.  Then spend action(s) achieving marks on it.  THEN you can try to hack/brick it.  Three passes in.  By that time the sammie's already killed the guy.

Oh and keep in mind that if the gun's owner realizes at any time the hacker is focusing on his gun, it's just a free action to turn the wireless off.  Decker can't touch it unless he's physically touching it.

Redwulfe

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • *
  • Posts: 668
« Reply #5 on: (10:05:06/06-21-18) »
There is only one moving part when you look at electronic firing systems and that is the bullet. try not to think of these guns as our traditional systems that use a hammer and firing pin to cause the cartridge to combust but instead they operate like the Metal storm system using and electrical charge to fire the bullet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWEqyrKLz6M

This is what is being break causing the gun to be useless.
There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't

Red

*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Sphinx

  • *
  • Troubleshooter
  • Omae
  • ****
  • Posts: 578
« Reply #6 on: (10:38:02/06-21-18) »
Oh, and keep in mind bricking is one of the least efficient things for a decker to do in combat.   It's sad :(

The action economy to hack a gun to death is terrible.  First you have to spend a complex action to find the gun's matrix icon.  Then spend action(s) achieving marks on it.  THEN you can try to hack/brick it.  Three passes in.  By that time the sammie's already killed the guy.

Oh and keep in mind that if the gun's owner realizes at any time the hacker is focusing on his gun, it's just a free action to turn the wireless off.  Decker can't touch it unless he's physically touching it.

This is mostly true, when you're up against professionals with their PANs running silent, who are trained to recognize and respond to hacker attacks. Against a typical goon who's not running silent and has wireless active, you automatically spot the weapon's icon within 100m (p.234), and you don't need any marks first to hit it with a Data Spike (p.239). Just reach out and brick it.

The modern Matrix depends on the fact that everything manufactured for the last decade, from commlinks to toasters to smartguns to teddy bears, has its own wireless transceiver, processor, and bottomless memory. It all meshes together to create the fabric of the Matrix. Essentially, devices generate the Matrix the way living beings generate Astral Space.

You can turn off wireless functionality temporarily, but most people can't be bothered. They want their stuff wirelessly talking to each other, integrated into their PAN. They want their commlink visible online, able to interact with other commlinks and hosts. Turning it off won't be the first instinct for an average Joe. It's not as if they run afoul of hackers every day. Most people probably never will.

If you want to sever something from the Matrix completely, you have to make it a "throwback" (p.421).

Marcus

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2160
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #7 on: (11:02:48/06-21-18) »
Oh, and keep in mind bricking is one of the least efficient things for a decker to do in combat.   It's sad :(

The action economy to hack a gun to death is terrible.  First you have to spend a complex action to find the gun's matrix icon.  Then spend action(s) achieving marks on it.  THEN you can try to hack/brick it.  Three passes in.  By that time the sammie's already killed the guy.

Oh and keep in mind that if the gun's owner realizes at any time the hacker is focusing on his gun, it's just a free action to turn the wireless off.  Decker can't touch it unless he's physically touching it.

That's not in keeping with the example language and you for sure don't need marks on something to do matrix damage to it.

I guess I need to go review those rules to get exact answers.

Keep in mind making a gun a smartgun costs twice what the gun does. They are full electronic weapons, not mechanical. Sure they have a slide, a barrel, and clip. But that trigger more there for looks then anything, it would more accurate to shoot by mental command. No need ride the trigger, just focus on where the target radical in your vision is, and fire on command. 
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

« Reply #8 on: (11:04:55/06-21-18) »
"Most people" won't have the instinct or training to disable wireless when your gear comes under matrix attack... but I'm not sure how often security personnel are clueless about matrix threats.  They may not want to shut off their commlink as they can't call for help that way... but surely (professional) guards know when your gun starts spitting sparks, shut the wireless off NOW before it stops working altogether......

And yeah if the gun wasn't running silent, sure it's one action to just start sending data spikes w/o marking it first.  But you won't do nearly as much damage w/o marks, and you'll only get one shot before the wireless is turned off...

Sphinx

  • *
  • Troubleshooter
  • Omae
  • ****
  • Posts: 578
« Reply #9 on: (11:16:12/06-21-18) »
"Most people" won't have the instinct or training to disable wireless when your gear comes under matrix attack... but I'm not sure how often security personnel are clueless about matrix threats.  They may not want to shut off their commlink as they can't call for help that way... but surely (professional) guards know when your gun starts spitting sparks, shut the wireless off NOW before it stops working altogether......

And yeah if the gun wasn't running silent, sure it's one action to just start sending data spikes w/o marking it first.  But you won't do nearly as much damage w/o marks, and you'll only get one shot before the wireless is turned off...

Even if the decker's first action causes the opposition to turn off all their wireless, then they've effectively reduced all (smartgun) attack tests by two dice for the duration. That ain't bad ...

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • *
  • Posts: 7128
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #10 on: (11:20:09/06-21-18) »
If you Dataspike, it means you failed as a hacker. Because it means you didn't take care of disabling the guns BEFORE combat started. What you should have done is score the marks and then eject clips when the fighting starts. Or hack their comms, trace them and paint AROs to let teammates fire through walls at them.
CorpSec when an alarm is triggered;: "This is so sad, Alexa play Shoot The Runner"

Marcus

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2160
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #11 on: (11:25:18/06-21-18) »

If you wanna build for cybercombat and dataspiking, last time I did the math you could pretty much guarantee to put enough matrix damage through to brick a gun. It's just not en vogue in the accepted decker builds right now. The ironic point being you're gonna use a deck that cost
 most of or more then 100k to brick a gun that cost less then a 1000, and it's as you said it's trick that can be prevented with trip to a pawn shop. The danger of bricking isn't guns, it's cyberware. That's what should keep sam's up at night.




*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Kincaid

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2620
« Reply #12 on: (11:29:37/06-21-18) »
If you Dataspike, it means you failed as a hacker. Because it means you didn't take care of disabling the guns BEFORE combat started. What you should have done is score the marks and then eject clips when the fighting starts. Or hack their comms, trace them and paint AROs to let teammates fire through walls at them.

Absolutely true, but how many Missions encounters begins with, "A van pulls up and its doors open.  Roll initiative."?
Killing so many sacred cows, I'm banned from India.

Marcus

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2160
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #13 on: (11:39:48/06-21-18) »
I think that's all too judgmental, the old ways worked fine. Nothing wrong with a good ol'matrix dungeon crawl, cybercombat style, Gonna just hammer though this ICE, and lewt the phatists of paydataz!  Sure we couldn't brick like we can now, but that's all the more reason to brick like we have always dreamed of being able too.

I feel like it's under appreciated with all this crazy HotF nonsense that suddenly become so popular. Sleaze is not the only matrix stat!



*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Kincaid

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2620
« Reply #14 on: (11:46:07/06-21-18) »
Attack deckers are a ton of fun to play.  A TM is going to be better at the "kill all the guns in this room now" game, but with Fork and a good agent, a decker can mow down guns reasonably efficiently.  Just make sure you coordinate target acquisition with the sams so you aren't bricking guns of soon-to-be dead people.
Killing so many sacred cows, I'm banned from India.