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Questions about Quickening in Missions

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Hobbes

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« Reply #30 on: (14:12:31/06-21-18) »

back to the issue at hand, I still hold that because Masking (and Extended Masking) is meant to allow you to change your aura (and any magical effects or items attached thereof) and moreover that it ceases when you fall unconscious or go to sleep that therefore using Masking on quickened spells you place on others is not viable. Their aura is not yours. Masking is personal not a service you can offer to other people.

I can't think of any MetaMagic ability that would work when the Mage is asleep/unconscious.  There probably is, but I can't think of one off the top of my head.

Additionally Masking is an opposed test and the Mage making the test would be subject to modifiers for Background count, damage taken, Foci, whatever.  No way to enforce that when the mage player has left the building, which is problematic for Missions play. 

I'm going to stick with please don't because I'd rather the Missions team work on other things than trying to figure out what to do with sustained / quickened spells from another dimension.  Because Quickening isn't even close to the only way to do this.  Bound Spirits, Sustaining Foci, Alchemical Preps kept in a Vault.  I could see players at a semi-regular Mission game just saying "Well Matt the Mage can't make it this week so he's sustaining 6 spells for us for a cut."   Just, please don't. 

adzling

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« Reply #31 on: (14:23:32/06-21-18) »
all good points Hobbes.

imho quickening is busted and only barely countered by nuanced understanding of in-game lore which many missions GMs lack.

therefore quickening should be banned at missions.

Absent that it should be explicitly stated that you cannot Quicken a spell on someone else.

Absent even that missions should make it clearly understood that you cannot Mask an object that leaves your Aura (such as a quickened spell on someone else).

While I commend the enterprising players whose PC mage is doing this at conventions imho this is truly broken and moreover not supported by RAW nor RAI.

Lormyr

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« Reply #32 on: (15:42:56/06-21-18) »
@Adzling

I disagree that they are the equivalent of full body armor. Full body armor is visible and intimidating to everyone. Non-visible magic is not, and will not disturb the vast majority of the population. If someone walked into a restaurant today in full body armor, most normal people would grow concerned or panic. If they walked in with an invisible power with no discernible effect, most people would carry on oblivious.

Those spells are more in line with attribute enhancing ware (as you mentioned), which to me just having them activate shouldn't cause concern without coupling activity to cause concern. When investigated, passing a SIN/license check should also easily dismiss the issue, again without coupling activity.

@Hobbes

First, the FAQ says Combat magic higher than Force 3 (not all magic - specifically combat, and mental manipulation of any Force).

Your point of not knowing specifically what spells are what is fair, but other than a scant few mental manipulation spells, how many negative spells are there that could be afflicting/Quickened on someone without obvious physical signs? The answer is very few.

The player should never be trying to "pull one over" on the GM. Likewise, the GM should never be trying to penalize a player simply because they don't like a valid game option the player used for their character. This isn't a competition between the player(s) and the GM. It's about fun. If the player has fun with the Quickening option for this character, that's acceptable. If the GM wants to monitor the character closely and respond to suspicious activity or blatant spell use the FAQ calls out as always getting a response, that's acceptable. Use common sense, the FAQ, and basic courtesy and things should be fine.

Quickening is a strong option, but it is hardly the only strong option - especially in Chicago where there was a near constant background count. It doesn't need a ban any more than ware does.

Hobbes

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« Reply #33 on: (18:16:46/06-21-18) »
Borrowing stuff from other Missions players that aren't at the game isn't allowed.  A Rigger can't rent out his Van, a Decker can't rent out his Deck, a Mage shouldn't be hired to sustain spells.

Otherwise, player makes a full on sustain build mage slapping down as many sustains as possible.  Quickened or not, Foci, Spirits, Alchemy Preps, and just plain old concentration.  Plays once, switches to a different character.
 Or just pops in for a game when it's time to shuffle resources around.   Man just think of what you can do with an Alchemist, a "shared" Vault of Ages and enough Nuyen to afford a year of down time on your Alchemist. 

It's so very exploitable and unfair to those players who don't have a buddy with a pocket buff caster, and creates a lot of issues for a GM who in effect has an invisible PC at his table to deal with.  Also effectively lets a Player have two characters at the same game when you start pooling resources among alts.

Jebus, think of what a bunch of Technomacers could do with an army of free Machine Sprites that just run Diagnostics.  Ugh. 

Home games, do as you will of course.  I've remoted in plenty of PCs who happen to miss a game when it's made sense.  But Missions games are a different animal.

And there are dangerous sustains in every group of spells other than Health, and Neo-Tokyo has enough magic patrols flying around that it doesn't matter that muggles can't see the Astral light show.  Someone or Something can and should react to it.

Lormyr

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« Reply #34 on: (18:57:50/06-21-18) »
I mean, I largely agree with your points. . .at least in terms of the scale you are talking about. Your point only applies to Quickening though, as none of the rest of those things can happen at a Missions table at present.

A PC who buys or begs one or two Quickened spells from another PC is really not a big deal.

If players were making throw away mages just to Quicken hordes of spells on non-awakened characters, then totally, that is a problem. 5 Years, hundreds of different players, and I have yet to see anything even remotely like that.

As far as our differing opinions of non-threatening Quickened spells being investigated, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Hobbes

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« Reply #35 on: (19:31:25/06-21-18) »
Alchemy Preps can totally be given to another character and stored in a Vault of Ages.  Diagnostics on a Machine Sprite last until the Sprite is given another order (or defeated in cybercombat).  Face characters can use Negotiations to get gear for another character and could easily become the team fixer, just with lower mark ups and better stuff.  These could be throw away characters that are played once, and then become a downtime bookkeeping exercise, or they could be characters that are played occasionally. 

"Wow Bob's sustain bot sure worked great, hey Jane, make a Technomancer will ya?"  Ugh.   

And off the top of my head, Incubus Shroud, Clairvoyance and Interference.  Just sayin. 

Jayde Moon

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« Reply #36 on: (01:28:53/06-22-18) »
The FAQ team will be discussing this and the resolution will be present for GenCon.

Personally, I am averse to removing player options as a general rule, so not in favor of outright banning it and am also ok with it being cast on others... but the degree to which it's been done feels like gaming the system (an amorphous 'accusation' that is hard to pin down) and also outside of the spirit of Missions.

Our choices will likely be either placing artificial controls that are justified with a shrug and "It's Missions" or ensuring that GMs are reminded of and empowered to deal with this at the table through legitimate gameplay.

Either way, it'll be sorted.
That's just like... your opinion, man.

Lormyr

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« Reply #37 on: (08:34:31/06-22-18) »
@Hobbes

Though I know that those things you describe are possible, again, I have yet to witness anyone actually create throw away characters to do those things. Has this been a problem in your experience, or are concerns more theoretical?

evilaustintom

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« Reply #38 on: (10:26:23/06-22-18) »
The FAQ team will be discussing this and the resolution will be present for GenCon.

Personally, I am averse to removing player options as a general rule, so not in favor of outright banning it and am also ok with it being cast on others... but the degree to which it's been done feels like gaming the system (an amorphous 'accusation' that is hard to pin down) and also outside of the spirit of Missions.

Our choices will likely be either placing artificial controls that are justified with a shrug and "It's Missions" or ensuring that GMs are reminded of and empowered to deal with this at the table through legitimate gameplay.

Either way, it'll be sorted.

Great!  Jayde, can y'all shoot me a PM once a decision is reached?  I'll work out any changes that need to happen before Gen Con, and have him ready to go then.  I'm playing a few slots at Gen Con, and I'd rather not cause any further waves.  I can get together with 'official' folks at the con if needed, too.
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evilaustintom

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« Reply #39 on: (10:36:42/06-22-18) »
...Otherwise, player makes a full on sustain build mage slapping down as many sustains as possible.  Quickened or not, Foci, Spirits, Alchemy Preps, and just plain old concentration.  Plays once, switches to a different character.
 Or just pops in for a game when it's time to shuffle resources around...

It's so very exploitable and unfair to those players who don't have a buddy with a pocket buff caster, and creates a lot of issues for a GM who in effect has an invisible PC at his table to deal with.  Also effectively lets a Player have two characters at the same game when you start pooling resources among alts.

Jebus, think of what a bunch of Technomacers could do with an army of free Machine Sprites that just run Diagnostics.  Ugh. 
...

I would call my mage a 'buffer' mage like you're suggesting...but he's my only Neo-Tokyo character, and I have no plans to make a second PC any time soon (unless I help running local Shadowrun games...and then, who knows what I'll come up with).  I had fun playing a face/fixer/fence for the group, and I didn't see any characters at any table that I could remotely call 'throwaway' characters.

I had a couple of friends that I played with during most of the con, but I didn't quicken any spells on them - but then again, I was usually buffing the group for that particular mission.  (why pay for something you're already getting each mission for free anyway?  <grimace>)

I'm not sure what the reference is to machine sprites - I already see that happening with technomancers whenever I'm at a table. Just one technomancer is enough to throw out machine sprites to everyone who needs them (which isn't necessarily everyone, since some may be unarmed adepts, sword-wielding PCs, etc.).
« Last Edit: (10:44:48/06-22-18) by evilaustintom »
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evilaustintom

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« Reply #40 on: (10:43:44/06-22-18) »
...

Pg 24.

Can my friends and I pool money to purchase something?

Yes, of course! Just be sure that each of you marks off the appropriate money for the item. However, one person
needs to be the actual owner of the item, and if that person is not present for the game session, then neither is the item.
So carefully consider what you’re going to split the costs on, and who you split it with!
 

Coming around back to the earlier points I mentioned, I've been pondering it, and a way to handle this in the future may be to just do this (assuming the Missions heads had issues with how things were handled):  Going in on a magical focus, or vehicle, or weapon (or whatever), still works out the same...and if folks are concerned about 'working for the people', that puts a bit of a leash on that.  It also appears to not clash with any existing mission rules (unless I'm missing something ELSE <grimace>).

Just a thought.
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adzling

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« Reply #41 on: (10:52:57/06-22-18) »
evilaustintom regardless of whatever missions decides to do about selling quickening services (ugg) you should stop representing that you can mask their quickened spells.

that is not RAW and imho is also not RAI.

missions needs to, at minimium, clarify that in their errata/ house rules.

Hobbes

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« Reply #42 on: (10:57:53/06-22-18) »
@Hobbes

Though I know that those things you describe are possible, again, I have yet to witness anyone actually create throw away characters to do those things. Has this been a problem in your experience, or are concerns more theoretical?

I've seen folks offer to Quicken spells on other players.  I've seen characters with a high Negotiations offer to work as a fixer (usually for a mark up though).  I have played at tables with a couple of mages just sustaining a bunch of spells on the team, and pretty well just steamrollered on through.  While entertaining once in a while,  Missions can't just be a series of boss fights vs teams of Force 6 to 10 Spirits.  I mean... Chicago is, but, what do you expect from Bug City...  : ) 

It becomes problematic once the behavior becomes systemic and organized.  If wandering buff mages become common at Cons the rest will follow once other folks see it, start posting, start thinking about what else could be done.   

Missions doesn't have tiers of difficulty.  GMs are expected to be able to handle brand new players with pre-gens that play along with a table of 200+Karma optimized builds.  Adding buffs and assistance from alternate timeline characters shouldn't be a problem for GMs.

Sustains and Quickening are potentially unbalancing, especially for newer GMs.  Tossing another 6 levels of Combat Sense and Increased Reflexes on every other character gets a bit too much.  And honestly isn't really necessary.  Plus it's a huge turn off for new players.

Lormyr

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« Reply #43 on: (11:11:51/06-22-18) »
@Hobbes

I have seen all of those things too, and frequently - but not on throw away characters. They are on primary's and back ups when a Mission the player has already done with their main is being ran. If people build throw away characters to do those things, yes, that is troublesome.

But on primary characters? That is just good team support. The mage and alchemist should be magically buffing their team (not necessarily Quickening, but that is ok if they wish to spend their karma for it). The face should be helping his teammates to acquire superior gear.

I don't know if you know this or not, but this entire game is significantly unbalanced. It is hardly just magic. An intelligent decker can solve a few Missions without the team ever leaving the van. A street sam that fires semi-auto grenades kills one encounter. The list goes on and on.

If your concern is about these things in general, we can have that discussion. My impression from your previous posts was that you were more concerned about people gaming the system with throw away PCs?
« Last Edit: (11:14:03/06-22-18) by Lormyr »

adzling

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« Reply #44 on: (11:16:38/06-22-18) »
magic is far more OP than the things you described Lormyr and the nuances that counter OP magic use are poorly understood by most GMs, let alone noob GMs at missions tables whereas everyone knows you cant carry or use a GL in an urban area without severe repercussions/ HTR response.