[Chaemera]

@Chaemera: Note also that peripheral nodes "are usually just smart enough to serve their function." It's not just that they lack personality capability, but they aren't general-purpose computers at all. Some may have spare processing power, but they don't generally have the capability to run arbitrary software, have ports to tap their sensors, and so forth. Thus, they may be "Matrix devices" but for the most part that's just flavor.

Very true, and I've never suggested they're general purpose computers. Only that they are specifically capable of accessing the Matrix for the purposes of data transfer &c (else you'd never be able to connect your feedback clothing to your commlink and your fridge couldn't contact the outside world to restock). The description of peripheral devices also specifically references the concept of being a wired device (and security cameras are cited as an example), so perhaps we shouldn't be too quick to write off the idea of them having ports.

Sensor Software being a specific case of "sensors ARE smart enough to run this stuff". Which is probably why they don't follow Auto-Soft rules, they're essentially self-contained packages designed to run on the simplified processors of sensor suites.

As with most things in Shadowrun, it seems pretty clear that the intention (and answer to our questions) is use some common sense. A sensor suite must either be wired or wireless capable to function, regardless of whether it's a security camera on a wall or part of a drone. And, a device has a device rating (complete with "unused processing power" in some cases) on which it can run software tailored to its specific capabilities. Exactly where that stops (sensor software? pilot programs?) is left to the individual GM, as it should be. The DR is also how you derive your signal range and how hard it is for someone to hack the sensor suite (or toaster, or fridge).

[Bradd]

As noted above, the description in Arsenal implies that you don't run the software on the sensors, you hook up two devices. And actually I've been thinking that emotitoys probably do put out a Matrix feed. However, they don't give you detailed empathy software info: They give you a cute ARO version of themselves.

[Wraith235]

its all about interpretation of the GM

Empathy: Empathy software is designed for use with
standard video/trideo cameras, carefully analyzing the behav-
ioral patterns of the subject to ascertain mood, interest, and so
on. Empathy sot  ware can be used to make a Judge Intentions Test
(see p. 130, SR4) for emotional status using its rating as the dice
pool. It does not detect falsehoods; that’s the realm of lie detection
sot  ware. Empathy sot  ware can be discreetly used in real time dur-
ing negotiations or social interactions, adding its rating as a dice
pool bonus to the character’s Social skill tests.

the quote in the description is
" Empathy software is designed for use with standard video/trideo cameras"

just for reference

on page 332 SR4A under Vision Sensors and imaging devices
is this
Camera (trideo) (Rating 1–6) 1–6 / [1] —  Rating x 100¥

this is why I do it the way I do and double cover myself Response 6 on eyes .... response 6 on commlink ...  19k noone is gonna argue the point

besides having a response 6 on your commlink leads to a firewall 6 and added protection vs invasive hackers

[Tagz]

Also, SR4A page 130:

Cumulative positive Social Modifiers may not exceed the character's combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings.

Social modifiers being the stuff in the table on the next page.

Depends on the game, I suppose.  We've always treated that as the maximum for social tests, regardless of where the modifier comes from.

Well GM can ofcource always house rule thinks anyway he wants, but social modifiers is only used to descripe the stuff in that table.
There nothing there to success it's  a general term for all dicepool modifiers affecting social skills.

...
The gamemaster should evaluate each situation and apply modifiers as he feels appropriate.  The Social Modifiers Table (p. 131) provides some examples.
...

To me that reads that the table is in no way all inclusive, allowing any other modifier to a social skill roll that the gamemaster feels appropriate.  Since empathy software is modifying a social skill test I think it falls easily in that area, at least that's how I've always played it.

It seems a little game breaking otherwise with Cha 1, Con 1 Trolls rolling fistfulls because they have a program.  They should require some development in the skill to understand how to use the information they are getting.

Just my opinion.

[Wraith235]

Also, SR4A page 130:

Cumulative positive Social Modifiers may not exceed the character's combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings.

Social modifiers being the stuff in the table on the next page.

Depends on the game, I suppose.  We've always treated that as the maximum for social tests, regardless of where the modifier comes from.

Well GM can ofcource always house rule thinks anyway he wants, but social modifiers is only used to descripe the stuff in that table.
There nothing there to success it's  a general term for all dicepool modifiers affecting social skills.

...
The gamemaster should evaluate each situation and apply modifiers as he feels appropriate.  The Social Modifiers Table (p. 131) provides some examples.
...

To me that reads that the table is in no way all inclusive, allowing any other modifier to a social skill roll that the gamemaster feels appropriate.  Since empathy software is modifying a social skill test I think it falls easily in that area, at least that's how I've always played it.

It seems a little game breaking otherwise with Cha 1, Con 1 Trolls rolling fistfulls because they have a program.  They should require some development in the skill to understand how to use the information they are getting.

Just my opinion.

the
"The gamemaster should evaluate each situation and apply modifiers as he feels appropriate.  The Social Modifiers Table (p. 131) provides some examples."

if you look at that table and really study it look at what gives positives

With respect to the character, the NPC is: Friendly +2
Character’s desired result is: Advantageous to NPC +1
Character has (known) street reputation +Street Cred (p. 265)
Subject has “ace in the hole” +2
Subject has romantic attraction to character +2

Con
Character has plausible-seeming  supporting evidence+1 or 2
Subject is distracted +1

Intimidate
Character is physically imposing in some way +1 to +3
Characters outnumber the subject(s) +2
Character is wielding a weapon or obvious magic +2

Leadership
Character has superior rank +1 to +3
Character is an obvious authority fgure +1
Subject is a fan or devoted to character +2

Negotiation
Character has blackmail material or  heavy bargaining chip+2‡

everything else is negative
now in no way am I telling you how to run your game ... if you want to ban Empathy software thats fine ...I would just suggest letting your players know in advance that this Item is disallowed

and a Cha 1 Con 1 would give them a max Dice pool of
1 Cha + 1 Con x2 = 4

thats even after modifiers

[Wraith235]

blech double post

[Tagz]

Didn't say anything about not allowing it, only saying that it conforms to the "positive cumulative social modifiers may not exceed the character's combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings" per page 130.  Some people play it as Empathy software is not hampered by that limitation, I and many others do not agree.

[Wraith235]

Didn't say anything about not allowing it, only saying that it conforms to the "positive cumulative social modifiers may not exceed the character's combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings" per page 130.  Some people play it as Empathy software is not hampered by that limitation, I and many others do not agree.

whoops well we all have Duh moments ..... and I gladly accept my facepalm for misinterpreting

whoever says its not limited IMHO needs to have their head examined .... 20 or twice the sum of attribute and skill IMPLIES modifiers

tho reading it I see where ppl are getting confused

the term .... Dice pool bonus vs. Dice pool modifier

but even then ... use common sense

[Mäx]

Didn't say anything about not allowing it, only saying that it conforms to the "positive cumulative social modifiers may not exceed the character's combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings" per page 130.  Some people play it as Empathy software is not hampered by that limitation, I and many others do not agree.

whoever says its not limited IMHO needs to have their head examined .... 20 or twice the sum of attribute and skill IMPLIES modifiers

Your talking about completdly different limit then the rest of us.
If the GM is using the optional rule that limits the max dicepool size into "20 or natural attribute + skill *2" then yes empathy software as well as everything else is limited by that.
But we're not talking about that, we're talking about the non-optional rule witch Tagz quoted in that post up there in the part of his post you quoted.
That limit is only for social modifiers, which are broad category of situational modifier(that there are countless of different one and the table gives examples of) and that rule doesn't limit thinks like empathy software/enchanted pheremones/Glamour etc. becouse those aren't in anyway what social modifiers are desripted as being in page 130.

[Wraith235]

Didn't say anything about not allowing it, only saying that it conforms to the "positive cumulative social modifiers may not exceed the character's combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings" per page 130.  Some people play it as Empathy software is not hampered by that limitation, I and many others do not agree.

whoever says its not limited IMHO needs to have their head examined .... 20 or twice the sum of attribute and skill IMPLIES modifiers

Your talking about completdly different limit then the rest of us.
If the GM is using the optional rule that limits the max dicepool size into "20 or natural attribute + skill *2" then yes empathy software as well as everything else is limited by that.
But we're not talking about that, we're talking about the non-optional rule witch Tagz quoted in that post up there in the part of his post you quoted.
That limit is only for social modifiers, which are broad category of situational modifier(that there are countless of different one and the table gives examples of) and that rule doesn't limit thinks like empathy software/enchanted pheremones/Glamour etc. becouse those aren't in anyway what social modifiers are desripted as being in page 130.

hmmm ok ... I see what you are saying sorry my brain is short of function this morning ...

under that I would still Rule that empathy software, Glamor, Kinesics, and Tailored Pheremones are indeed social modifiers due to the fact that if you read the Specifics of each they all modify social tests
Just because they arent on the list doesnt mean they should not be included since they do the exact same thing as the postive modifiers and that is "add positive dice to social tests"

then there is the following exerpts

The Social Modifers Table (p. 131) provides some examples.

SR4A Pg. 61 Sidebar "A note on modifiers"(Meaning there are more than just what is listed as people have pointed out before)

 . .  . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Shadowrun, Fourth Edition, uses four distinct types of modifiers: attribute
modifiers, skill modifiers, threshold modifiers, and dice pool modifiers.
attribute and skill modifiers affect the character’s relevant stats directly,
resulting  in  augmented attribute Ratings  and modified  skill Ratings
respectively  (see  attribute  Ratings,  p.  68,  and  Skill  Ratings,  p.  68).
threshold modifiers are situational modifiers that increase or decrease
the  thresholds  of  unopposed  success tests  and  extended tests  (see
Thresholds, p. 63). Finally, dice pool modifiers are the most common type
of modifiers; they represent dice pool increases and reductions from situ-
ational modifiers, the effects of augmentations, powers, spells, and from
injuries, qualities, and various other sources (see Dice Pool Modifiers).
these add and subtract from the dice pools but do not modify the basic
skills and attributes in use.
the  type of modifier  in question  is noted  in  the description of
each modifier. should  there be any doubt, assume  the modifier  is a
dice pool modifier.


and if you look at the statement in the book on the aformentioned page

 Cumulative positive Social Modifers may not exceed the character’s combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings.

that Says for the most part the exact same thing as the optional Rule of 20 or Attribute+skill X2 ... it actually gives less wiggle room since its a hard line of skill+attribute

[Mäx]

Here's the whole think about social modifiers

Many sorts of modifiers may apply to social skill tests, depending on
the situation and characters in question. For example, trying to influence
someone in a club where the music is overbearingly loud, while
being covered in blood, or when wearing a rival team’s sports jersey
in the wrong sports bar may all impact a character’s Charisma-linked
tests. The gamemaster should evaluate each situation and apply modifiers
as he feels appropriate. The Social Modifiers Table (p. 131) provides
some examples.
Gamemasters must also keep the nature of the Shadowrun world
in mind when assigning modifiers. For example, racism and prejudice
still exist. Though it is often directed towards metahumans, it may also
affect characters of certain ethnic, cultural, subcultural, or economic
class backgrounds. Of course, one does not need to be racist to be
intimidated by a menacing, hulking troll. Heavy amounts of visible
cyberware or wearing bulky armored clothing may be faux pas and
looked down upon in some circles, but down at the corner runner dive
they might be par for the course. Likewise, while everyone knows that
magic exists and has seen magic (real and simulated) on the trid, few
people are used to seeing it in real life and may be unnerved by, intimdated
by, or hostile to those who can wield it.
Unless otherwise noted, Opposed Test modifiers only affect one
character or another—usually the acting character—but not both.
Cumulative positive Social Modifiers may not exceed the character’s
combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings.

I bolded the parts desripting what a social modifiers are.
Know tell me does that really sound to you like it includes stuff like empathy software and tailored pheromones?

[Wraith235]

Here's the whole think about social modifiers

Many sorts of modifiers may apply to social skill tests, depending on
the situation and characters in question. For example, trying to influence
someone in a club where the music is overbearingly loud, while
being covered in blood, or when wearing a rival team’s sports jersey
in the wrong sports bar may all impact a character’s Charisma-linked
tests. The gamemaster should evaluate each situation and apply modifiers
as he feels appropriate. The Social Modifiers Table (p. 131) provides
some examples.
Gamemasters must also keep the nature of the Shadowrun world
in mind when assigning modifiers. For example, racism and prejudice
still exist. Though it is often directed towards metahumans, it may also
affect characters of certain ethnic, cultural, subcultural, or economic
class backgrounds. Of course, one does not need to be racist to be
intimidated by a menacing, hulking troll. Heavy amounts of visible
cyberware or wearing bulky armored clothing may be faux pas and
looked down upon in some circles, but down at the corner runner dive
they might be par for the course. Likewise, while everyone knows that
magic exists and has seen magic (real and simulated) on the trid, few
people are used to seeing it in real life and may be unnerved by, intimdated
by, or hostile to those who can wield it.
Unless otherwise noted, Opposed Test modifiers only affect one
character or another—usually the acting character—but not both.
Cumulative positive Social Modifiers may not exceed the character’s
combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings.

I bolded the parts desripting what a social modifiers are.
Know tell me does that really sound to you like it includes stuff like empathy software and tailored pheromones?

Empathy: Empathy software is designed for use with
standard video/trideo cameras, carefully analyzing the behav-
ioral patterns of the subject to ascertain mood, interest, and so
on. Empathy software can be used to make a Judge Intentions Test
(see p. 130, SR4) for emotional status using its rating as the dice
pool. It does not detect falsehoods; that’s the realm of lie detection
sot  ware. Empathy software can be discreetly used in real time dur-
ing negotiations or social interactions, adding its rating as a dice
pool bonus to the character’s Social skill tests.

Tailored Pheromones: The subject’s body is altered to release
specially designed pheromones to subtly infuence others. Tailored
pheromones add their rating as a dice pool modifer to Charisma and
Social Skill Tests. This bonus has no efect on magical abilities and tests.

Kinesics
Cost: .5 per level (max 3 levels)
An adept with Kinesics has complete control over her body’s
nonverbal and  subconscious communication and  social cues, even
when engaged in stressful social scenarios. This control includes facial
expressions, body movements, posture, eye movements, and internal
biological stress functions such as heartbeat, blood pressure, and sweat
glands. The adept is also gifed at reading others’ body language and
cultural-specifc afectations and mimicking their cues to her advan-
tage. As a result, this power boosts the character’s natural presence and
social charms.
Each level applies a +1 bonus for the adept when making or re-
sisting Social skill tests. It also applies a +1 dice pool modifer to the
adept on any Opposed Tests made to gauge the adept’s truthfulness or
emotional state, including Judge Intention tests (p. 139), assensing for
emotional state, and other magical and technological tests.
Two adepts with Kinesics and within sight of each other can use a
Complex Action to nonverbally communicate simple notions to each
other, using body language alone. Only basic messages and emotional
states can be conveyed: yes, no, bad idea, I don’t want to, I’m angry,
look out behind you, and so on.

Glamour
Cost: 15 BP
A character with Glamour is paranaturally gifed so that all
sapient beings perceive her as moving with unearthly grace, her
countenance as always radiant, and her voice as soul-wrenching
and laden with emotion. People may describe her as angelic or
fairylike, and everyone she speaks to cannot help but feel moved
and inspired.
Sapient beings will always respond with awe, deference, and
kindness to the character as long as she does not act hostile. The
character gains a +3 dice pool modifer to all Social Skill Tests
except Intimidation.
This quality renders the character particularly memorable
and she sufers from the efects of Distinctive Style (p. 103)



Empathy Software - Knowing how someone is behaving, their mood, and interest
------would certainly affects how I would approach someone

Tailored Pheramones - a "Smell" designed to subtely influence others .....
------I smell like a bed of roses to the women

Kinsetics- total control of your own facial expressions, body movements, posture, eye movements, and internal biological stress functions such as heartbeat, blood pressure, and sweat glands as well as able to read others’ body language and cultural-specifc afectations and mimicking their cues to her advantage.
-------Even Greg"Fossil Man" Raymer couldnt out play me in Poker

Glamor - other sapient beings being in Awe of you as long as your not threatening ....
-------Deva from Fifth element

some of my euphamisims on the different things may be a bit much .... but I cant sleep and its all I could come up with

oh ya ... those are definatly social modifiers ... from environmental to knowledge to Bluffing

[Ultra Violet]

Social modifiers or dice pool modifiers.
That is a bit of a big question!
Sure every social interaction modifying effect could be a social modifier, but the same is true for combat actions, sense tests and so on... it would be changing the whole RPG-System, because if you say it here, why don't say it there to and there...

[Wraith235]

Social modifiers or dice pool modifiers.
That is a bit of a big question!
Sure every social interaction modifying effect could be a social modifier, but the same is true for combat actions, sense tests and so on... it would be changing the whole RPG-System, because if you say it here, why don't say it there to and there...

Dice Pools
When a player makes a test, she rolls a number of dice equal to her dice
pool. The dice pool is the sum of the relevant skill plus its linked attri-
bute, plus or minus any modifers that may apply. When a gamemaster
calls for a test, he will provide the player with a description of the task
at hand and which skill (and linked attribute) is most appropriate for
it. Te gamemaster and player then decide on the applicable dice pool
modifers—both positive and negative—to determine the fnal dice
pool. Te player then rolls a number of dice equal to the dice pool.



A Success Test is the standard test to see if a character can accomplish a
given task, and how well. Use Success Tests when the character is exer-
cising a skill or ability for immediate efect and is not directly opposed
by another person or force.
To make  a Success Test,  the  character  rolls her dice pool  and
counts the number of hits, as described above.

An Opposed Test occurs when two characters are in direct confict with
one another. In this case, the chance of success is based not so much on
the situation as on the opponent. When making an Opposed Test, both
characters roll their dice pools and compare the number of hits they score.
Te character generating the greater number of hits achieves her goal.
In the event of a tie, the action is typically a stalemate, and the
characters have to choose between continuing with another test or
withdrawing. If the gamemaster needs or wants a result on a tie, then
rule in favor of the defending character.

When one character attempts  to  infuence another character with
Con, Intimidation, Leadership, or Negotiation skill, an Opposed Test
is called for. To determine what each character rolls, see the Charisma-
Linked Opposed Tests Table.
If the character is attempting to infuence a group of NPCs who
have no designated  leader,  the Opposed Test applies  to  the whole
group—use the highest dice pool available among the members of the
group, then add +1 for each extra person (max +5). Groups tend to
react as a whole, with reluctant members drawn along by enthusiastic
ones. Alternatively, the gamemaster may appoint a leader or a “ringer
in the crowd” and base the success or failure of the endeavor on that
character’s reaction to the player character.

skill used acting character rolls target character rolls

Con ---------------Con + Charisma------------vs.-----(Con or Negotiation) + Charisma
Etiquette --------Etiquette + Charisma -------vs. ----Perception + Charisma
Intimidation -----Intimidation + Charisma ---vs.-----Intimidation + Willpower
Leadership ------Leadership + Charisma ----vs.-----Leadership + Willpower
Negotiation -----Negotiation + Charisma ----vs-----.Negotiation + Charisma

look at the bottom of the social Modifier table and you will see this

* Unless otherwise noted, these dice pool modifers apply to the acting   
character’s dice pool.
† These modifers apply to the target character’s dice pool.
‡ These modifers can apply to either character’s dice pool.

Notice it says "Dice pool" not "Social Modifiers" or "Social Pool"

sure its a social Test ... but it still uses a Dice Pool ....

Sure they are "Social Modifiers" but they still Modify the "Dice Pool"

Truth be Told ....we know the SR4 system has a lot of Loop holes and wording issues in it .... this iappears to be one of them for a specific group of ppl
thing is ppl are set in their ways .... this argument could go on for weeks or even Months till were blue in the face


Good Lord my posts are getting messy so much double post /edit / cleanup .... ugh

[Ultra Violet]

But the optional 20 dice cap per test rule is independent of such discussions.
There is an different hole in it: If you have a dice pool bigger than 20 for example 27 and the GM tells you, its total dark in here you got another -6 modifier for acting in the dark, you will role your 20 dice if its dark or perfect light whatever...
Back to the Pornomancer, he has the same "problem" his Charisma and Skill Ratings are maxed out and so his social modifier (bonus he can get), too. His Street Cred will be improving over time and because of his high Charisma Rating he will get much out of it. (Say Charisma 8 = +8 Street Cred limit)
That means he would get after some play time +8 standard social modifier if his person will be recognized. This modifier is only one of many but you see 8 out of 20 comes with time, but from the start he has at least 12 dice in his dice pool. And from 12 to 20 is only 8 dice away... And there are literally hundreds of ways to get them together...

@topic:
A threaded Empathy Soft CF will get the technomancer or his Face friend a big bonus... think Rating 10+!