NEWS

Whats in a Firearm?

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Morg

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« on: (15:42:51/01-28-11) »
Also I have found that PCs love to mod their guns within and inch of its life, RAW states that a if and gun is overmoded it would lose some performance. What some may forget is that modifying a weapon will change its look and the more it is modified the more harm you do the the style of the Firearm see pic below

I suggest the institution of a -1 to -3 similar in effect to the Custom Look or Pimped (yes I know Pimped is a vehicle quality)

Opinions?

Teyl_Iliar

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« Reply #1 on: (18:43:51/01-28-11) »
Also I have found that PCs love to mod their guns within and inch of its life, RAW states that a if and gun is overmoded it would lose some performance. What some may forget is that modifying a weapon will change its look and the more it is modified the more harm you do the the style of the Firearm see pic below

I suggest the institution of a -1 to -3 similar in effect to the Custom Look or Pimped (yes I know Pimped is a vehicle quality)

Opinions?
I having carried a weapon similar to the one in the picture below for months at a time. I can tell you from first hand experience that when you have more than 2 attachments to a weapon system you start to lose something not from it's performance, but it's ability to be used by the operator. Personally I noted that my weapon became more cumbersome with each new gadget mounted on it, The whole pounds equals pain saying definitely applies. As far as the negative modifier... I would say it depends on the character's strength and agility to determine if it applies at all.
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John Schmidt

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« Reply #2 on: (19:10:10/01-28-11) »
I play paintball and I carry an SP-8, big ole electric hopper filled with wholesome splat--tastic goodness. In addition to that...3-point sling, holo red dot sight, verticle front foregrip, mini-flashlight (I play night games as well), and a video camera (light weight made for extreme sports), add to this my air tank, two paint grenades, and 1,200 additional paintballs in loaders on my vest, handsfree radio, water camelpak...the importance of being in good shape is not lost on me.

I don't buy into modding a firearm will harm its performance...unless you are having an idiot do the work, ultimately the law of diminishing returns is in play.

As far as RAW goes...some rules are more worthy of being discarded than others you get to decide which ones make the cut.
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.

Teyl_Iliar

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« Reply #3 on: (19:20:57/01-28-11) »
I don't buy into modding a firearm will harm its performance...unless you are having an idiot do the work, ultimately the law of diminishing returns is in play.
Agreed.
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savaze

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« Reply #4 on: (20:51:30/01-28-11) »
That pic above has a lot of the same attachments from different manufacturers! 

I agree that it won't affect the performance... It's way more likely to affect the attachments, like optics, though I've seen up to three optics on an AR and still have operational value while wearing armor like the IBA.  There is a whole new thought process with mounting accessories and using several optics at once, but it's not widely in use yet (two is the limit for immediate use - one on top one mounted on a 45° angle on the away side of the weapon). 

The weapon will become cumbersome with more weight like Morg said.  I've carried and used AR/carbines for prolonged periods as well and carrying a front heavy AR gives you a bit of a quiver in prolonged firefights, but sometimes entry weapons benefit from the added weight (e.g. jamming the barrel into someone with or without a bayonet attached).

Sometimes attachments don't make sense or are just for style-value you be the judge!

Kontact

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« Reply #5 on: (22:28:47/01-28-11) »
Modifying a gun isn't like stuffing laundry into a bag.  It doesn't swell outwards.  You're replacing parts with other parts which serve similar functions.

But you really shouldn't look too close at this stuff.  It's abstracted for balance purposes.

Teyl_Iliar

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« Reply #6 on: (22:52:58/01-28-11) »
Modifying a gun isn't like stuffing laundry into a bag.  It doesn't swell outwards.  You're replacing parts with other parts which serve similar functions.

But you really shouldn't look too close at this stuff.  It's abstracted for balance purposes.
But what about external add ons? I mean I get that electronic firing isn't the same as adding an under barrel weight but what about an external smart gun or a gun cam?
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savaze

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« Reply #7 on: (00:52:44/01-29-11) »
Modifying a gun isn't like stuffing laundry into a bag.  It doesn't swell outwards.  You're replacing parts with other parts which serve similar functions.

But you really shouldn't look too close at this stuff.  It's abstracted for balance purposes.

I'll agree with that to a certain point on internal mods.  There is a limit to how far you can change the guts of weapons based on brand and complexity.  IRL, with AR's, internal mods usually require an upper receiver change to allow the more complex changes.  I still prefer 3rd(e) weapon design over 4th(e), plus there was rules for making new/unique weapons. 

I can see where it could be a balancing issue, but I don't see this edition as being as lethal as the prior editions... Maybe I'm wrong, but I saw a lot more one-hit-kills previously.  I think the lethality of the prior ed's was a concern and unnecessary precautions were taken to prevent it, then it was decided that they hampered it thoroughly so they released War! to amp it up again.

Thoughts?

Teyl_Iliar

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« Reply #8 on: (04:20:48/01-29-11) »
I can see where it could be a balancing issue, but I don't see this edition as being as lethal as the prior editions... Maybe I'm wrong, but I saw a lot more one-hit-kills previously.  I think the lethality of the prior ed's was a concern and unnecessary precautions were taken to prevent it, then it was decided that they hampered it thoroughly so they released War! to amp it up again.

Thoughts?
I miss being able to build my own weapons. I have yet to read War to know, but as it stands it feels like things are about fair as far as combat goes, everything from the recoil, to the burst modifiers and how they affect you really make sense to me. the only thing I do know about War! that I really like is that if a grenade from a launcher hits it's target it can explode on contact rather than roll around and possibly get thrown back. (I personally think that rule is crap as the fuse on the standard frag grenade is never longer than 4 seconds.)But I digress...
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John Schmidt

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« Reply #9 on: (09:07:13/01-29-11) »
@Savaze     While I won't try to guess what Rob was intending with 4th ed...I can say from my discussions with Mike Muvilhill, that in 3rd Ed that it was meant to be lethal. In 3rd, the concept (related to me) was that runners are cogs in the machines, deniable and disposable...runners were meant to die. The futility of fighting the system and how it grind up runners was something that was intentionally built into 3rd.

@Teyl_Iliar    I miss the firearm build rules as well. Correct me if I am wrong, IRL a 40mic fired from a M203 arms after traveling a set distance arms itself after which it detonates on impact...there is no throwing the grenade back.

Balance can be an issue if you start getting carried away mods today...I would expect in the future though that the items will be smaller and lighterweight. The video camera on my SP 8 is very lightweight and smaller than the tube for a roll of toilet paper, records to a SD card...damn cool IMHO!!!

Interesting side note...when 3rd came out with mounting rules it was top, bottom or barrel...my SP 8 comes with three tactical rails on the foregrip and one on the rear receiver.

Edit: bold was added.
« Last Edit: (14:53:15/01-29-11) by John Schmidt »
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.

Mäx

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« Reply #10 on: (10:37:32/01-29-11) »
What some may forget is that modifying a weapon will change its look and the more it is modified the more harm you do the the style of the Firearm see pic below
I suggest the institution of a -1 to -3 similar in effect to the Custom Look or Pimped (yes I know Pimped is a vehicle quality)
Opinions?
Doesn't make much sense, pretty much all of the modifications are changes to the internal parts of the gun and as such wouldn't result in to somethink stupid like the pictured weapon(which isn't over modded, but over accessorised).
And neither can external accessories result into that as there's a limit of 1 accessory per slot.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Teyl_Iliar

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« Reply #11 on: (10:48:56/01-29-11) »
@Teyl_Iliar    I miss the firearm build rules as well. Correct me if I am wrong, IRL a 40mic fired from a M203 arms after traveling a set distance after which it detonates on impact...there is no throwing the grenade back.
On several occasions while playing with my usual group our GM as treated grenades launched from a weapon platform as "return to senders." As we could not find text in the books to state otherwise until he read it in war. But I'm mostly disagreeing with the rule that a defender can/would pick up a live grenade and throw it back at all. Even if a combat turn is 3 seconds, the time it takes for a grenade to be thrown from A to B is close to that amount of time. The time to throw it back at someone is definitely longer. But I don't want to debate that point here necessarily as I'm sure there is another place in the forum for that.
« Last Edit: (10:51:36/01-29-11) by Teyl_Iliar »
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The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #12 on: (11:54:05/01-29-11) »
Grenades have been thrown back to the original thrower IRL.  The term "cooking" a grenade means allowing a second or so for the fuse to burn down a bit until releasing the grenade.  This helps prevent the target(s) from doing just that.

Of course, in SR, there are airburst grenades.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Kontact

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« Reply #13 on: (14:58:30/01-29-11) »
But what about external add ons? I mean I get that electronic firing isn't the same as adding an under barrel weight but what about an external smart gun or a gun cam?

Like Max said, there's three potential accessory slots, Top, under and barrel.  Plenty of guns aren't even allowed to mount all 3.  I mostly meant it's abstracted for balance across gun type rather than as a means of balancing combat.  IOW, a hold-out pistol can take just as many modifications as a ship's laser.

One question that bears investigation is how accessories should affect concealability.
After all, if a Gas Vent can be taken as a barrel mount or a mod for the same cost and with the same effect, who would bother with the internal version?

Teyl_Iliar

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« Reply #14 on: (17:30:33/01-29-11) »
One question that bears investigation is how accessories should affect concealability.
After all, if a Gas Vent can be taken as a barrel mount or a mod for the same cost and with the same effect, who would bother with the internal version?
First off i can agree with the statement about concealability. As for the external vs internal modifcations, if you have an integral gas vent or scilencer that's something that you can always have on that weapon, but you can't mount an external version of both at the same time. thusly, (Unless i've read something wrong or missed it completely...  :( that applies to everything I say btw...) you can have your recoil compensation, and -4 to perception tests too! I can see keeping somethings external because they are cheaper that way. Example an external smartgun system = 400 nuyen, Internal smartgun = the cost of the weapon. Depending on the weapon, that could be over a few thousand nuyen instead. it's like a budget option. in some cases, or in others just an extra way to get that last little piece on their weapon for that mission.  :-\
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