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Codes of Honor and SRM.

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Marcus

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« Reply #30 on: (23:55:32/06-14-18) »
Based on your tier system, which ones should be in which tiers?  Are any still right out?


I'll sort it, I suspect at-least a couple will still have to set out, as being too disruptive, I can't see my way around the medic and Cop Codes. Not that i don't love them, but healing enemies is applicable and enforceable, and bound to bring heat at the table.
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Marcus

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« Reply #31 on: (00:28:51/06-15-18) »
Tier 1 (15 PTS, RAW wording, Applicable, Enforceable, Non-disruptive)


Assassin’s Creed: A character never kills anyone
that they are not paid to kill. Being precise as an
assassin, not leaving collateral damage, and be-
ing invisible are important hallmarks of those
who believe in the Assassin’s Creed.

THE PATH OF THE SAMURAI
Restriction: May not kill anyone from surprise or via
treachery. May not break his word once given.

THE PALADIN’S CODE (A.K.A. ELVEN CHIVALRY)
Restriction: Cannot break one’s word. Cannot harm the
innocent. Must not allow art or beauty to come to harm.

THE SOLDIER’S CODE
Restriction: Must obey orders from superiors. Must not
loot the dead or allow them to be looted. Must not lie to
superiors. Must maintain honorable conduct and obey
the rules of war. May never torture or harm prisoners.

Warrior’s Code:  character will not kill an unarmed person, take lethal action
against an opponent who is unaware or unprepared
for an attack (i.e., a guard who doesn’t
know the runner is there), or knowingly take an
action that could kill someone who is defenseless
(i.e., from a stray bullet or allow someone to
be killed from a sniper shot). The character loses
1 Karma per unarmed or defenseless person that
they kill or allow to be killed through their actions.

Like a Boss (This is Already Legal so I'm gonna leave it alone.)

Tier 2 ( 5 PTS, RAW wording 2 of 3 Applicable, Enforceable, Non-disruptive)

OMERTA, THE CODE OF SILENCE
Restriction: Cannot kill police officers. Cannot oppose
a superior in the family. Must not give information to
legal authorities.
(This goes into 2 b/c Cannot Oppose a Superior in the families, isn't likely Applicable)

THE CODE OF WUXIA
Restriction: May not harm the innocent. May never
accept bribes or misuse authority. May not serve the
corrupt.
(The first one works, the 2nd mostly work but also a little bit don't I'm splitting the difference and putting it in 2, may need end up in 3.)

HARMONY WITH NATURE, THE SHAMAN’S CODE
Restriction: May only Bind spirits after agreeing to a
fair exchange of services (see below) Must always treat
spirits with respect. Must honor deals made with spirits.
(The first one is missions disruptive but i think the other two hold.)

Tier 3 ( 3 PTS, RAW wording, rarely applicable or rarely enforceable, but still non-disruptive )

WHITE HATS, THE CODE OF THE HACKER
Restriction: Cannot destroy/erase information. May
edit if, and only if, a copy is kept safe and easy to return.
(This is tough it's a good code, just rarely happens)

THE AKICHITA CODE
Restriction: Never show fear. Challenge your strength
against worthy foes. Do not allow yourself or your
loved ones to fall into decadence or slothful behavior.
Never harm the weak or innocent.
(Love this code to much stuff not really define to make into the other two.)

BUSHIDO 2.0
Restriction: Must always follow the commands of
one’s superiors, no matter the personal cost.
(Too little information. Probably it should be removed totally but I'd really like to have Bushido 2.0 in for NT.)

THE CODE OF THE WHITE HAT
Restriction: Must not take advantage of law-abiding
Matrix users. May not use lethal code against fellow
deckers
(I really want to put this in category 2, but it's just rarely applicable one.)

THE HERMETIC CODE
Restriction: Never destroy information, especially
magical knowledge. Always speak the truth and denounce
falsehood. Capture rare things intact rather
than destroy the unknown.

To disruptive
 THE HIPPOCRATIC OATH
Restriction: Must provide medical aid if able. Must not
use lethal medicine. Must keep a patient’s confidence.

(Tragically this is probably to table disruptive, in the sense that medical aid to the enemy is almost certainly gonna draw wraith. As much as I personally like the code, I'm not ready or willing to drop it in 3.)

THE CODE OF THE GOOD COP
Restriction: To serve as an officer of the law, without
fear, favor, or discrimination. To protect those in need
and, if necessary, to lay down your life in the service of
duty. To hold your personal conduct beyond reproach
and bring no shame upon your organization.
(Great Code, and when they let PC's play cops in missions I'm all for moving it)

Angel of Death? The 7 pointer from the sniper book, it's already covered, and just doesn't really gel with with tiering anyways.

THUG LIFE, THE CODE OF THE STREETS
Restriction: Must always wear gang colors, must donate
half of all earnings beyond lifestyle to the gang,
(After discussion it was suggested this is too disruptive for mission play.)

So that's my listings, feel free to mix and match and we can see where things settle out.
« Last Edit: (19:07:38/06-15-18) by Marcus »
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Bamce

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« Reply #32 on: (14:50:20/06-15-18) »
that is an awful lot of work for not alot of gain.

NOTHING keeps you from roleplaying a code of honor.

You can just roleplay those aspects of your character and not have to deal with the table baggage associated with it.

« Reply #33 on: (15:17:19/06-15-18) »
I'm also seeing a good bit more potential/likelihood of party friction than Marcus is on many of those Codes.

I'd consider Thug Life flat out too disruptive for SRM.  Omerta may as well be banned since Made Man is.  Akichita is probably too disruptive as the character can't participate in sneaky black trenchcoat style plans that involve avoiding trouble rather than confronting it.

Lots of the other Codes (Soldier, Samurai, Hermetic, etc) have the potential for good roleplay where those characters voice their preferences about following their code when the party is looking like they're about to do something that'd violate the code.  But to springboard off of Bamce, why not just treat that as roleplaying one's "shadowrun alignment" rather than adding in the minefield of negative rules mechanics that hinge on the outcome of that roleplay? 

Plus there's the angle Jayde Moon mentioned.. if the code is requiring you to do stuff you're gonna do anyway why should it be worth karma?  To add to that, if the Code is going to provide an "out" where you just step aside and let the rest of the party do something against your code, why should it give karma for the roleplaying you did voicing your objection to that action?  Ideally you're supposed to be roleplaying what your character would do/want anyway, whether you got free karma for the code or not.

Marcus

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« Reply #34 on: (15:52:11/06-15-18) »
SSDR you think wearing gang colors and donating half your income to the gang is too disruptive? How? It's probably the least intrusive code on there. Gang Color could literally be as simple as a team Jersey or even a do-rag. Please explain how you find that disruptive?

Now to address Bamce's other point, I like codes of honor. I'm a big fan of doing everything we can get away from the murder Hobo issue, and in SR Codes are one of the few ways we can do anything to address it. Sure it's some work, but I'm happy to work on something I enjoy, and I know many others enjoy. So now players can have something on their sheet to help drive their RP. Not that you have ever actually responded to any of my replies to date, Bamce but I guess I'm eternally optimistic. lol

You do understand that being a made man is like winning Omerta SSDR. Omerta is still totally applicable if you wanna do any sort of Mob character, or even Ex-Mob character. Akichita is a 3, specifically for those sorts of issues and couple other problems, but when in doubt you can just say they aren't worthy foes and sneak by them lol.

Jayde Moon, asked me to make to my case, and I have done so. If they don't do anything with then they don't do anything with it. But I'm hopeful and we do have the book coming, it would be nice to get use out of it.
« Last Edit: (15:59:32/06-15-18) by Marcus »
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« Reply #35 on: (17:06:38/06-15-18) »
SSDR you think wearing gang colors and donating half your income to the gang is too disruptive? How? It's probably the least intrusive code on there. Gang Color could literally be as simple as a team Jersey or even a do-rag. Please explain how you find that disruptive?

It's not the tithing but the requirement to wear your colors.  And this is the SRM campaign where they're beginning to enforce consequences for bad social behavior at the meet.  If Tanaka-san wants to meet in a fancy restaurant, you're either breaking your Code or you're not going.  Lose/lose for you in SRM.

Furthermore, wearing colors in other-than-nice-places is what gets gangs in those less-than-nice places to accost the team.  Either the party ditches you to handle the rival gangers by your lonesome (bad for party cohesion), or your code forces an unscripted encounter with the local gangers that the GM is burdened with improvising and your team is saddled with resolving... while still trying to stick to the 4 hour timeframe for the rest of the scripted mission.
« Last Edit: (17:08:22/06-15-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

Marcus

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« Reply #36 on: (17:32:55/06-15-18) »
SSDR you think wearing gang colors and donating half your income to the gang is too disruptive? How? It's probably the least intrusive code on there. Gang Color could literally be as simple as a team Jersey or even a do-rag. Please explain how you find that disruptive?

It's not the tithing but the requirement to wear your colors.  And this is the SRM campaign where they're beginning to enforce consequences for bad social behavior at the meet.  If Tanaka-san wants to meet in a fancy restaurant, you're either breaking your Code or you're not going.  Lose/lose for you in SRM.

Furthermore, wearing colors in other-than-nice-places is what gets gangs in those less-than-nice places to accost the team.  Either the party ditches you to handle the rival gangers by your lonesome (bad for party cohesion), or your code forces an unscripted encounter with the local gangers that the GM is burdened with improvising and your team is saddled with resolving... while still trying to stick to the 4 hour timeframe for the rest of the scripted mission.

Gang color can be added to any outfit, Nothing is stopping you from getting then on a tie, or even using the rythurm Polymer in your sleeping tiger to display them, or your Nano-Tattoo. All that failing a nice suite in those colors those would easily meet the requirement. I'm sure you can get in a nice Kimono also if ya needed to meet Tanaka-san somewhere with the level of formality. So that's just doesn't hold up.


As to gangers vs runners, that only ever ends one way, and it's never good for the gangers, this is a pretty well known fact. So I doubt a group of gangers is going to be dumb enough to jump a runner team b/c one of them happens to be rocking a rival's colors. If it were to come up, Most likely a quick intimidate check would solve that. But if there has to be a fight, I don't think it's serous issue. It won't be a long combat and all it means is more guns and links for the runners.

On the flip side it's pretty likely the runners gang will be happy to assist them should the need arise. :D
« Last Edit: (17:35:07/06-15-18) by Marcus »
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« Reply #37 on: (17:47:48/06-15-18) »
SSDR you think wearing gang colors and donating half your income to the gang is too disruptive? How? It's probably the least intrusive code on there. Gang Color could literally be as simple as a team Jersey or even a do-rag. Please explain how you find that disruptive?

It's not the tithing but the requirement to wear your colors.  And this is the SRM campaign where they're beginning to enforce consequences for bad social behavior at the meet.  If Tanaka-san wants to meet in a fancy restaurant, you're either breaking your Code or you're not going.  Lose/lose for you in SRM.

Furthermore, wearing colors in other-than-nice-places is what gets gangs in those less-than-nice places to accost the team.  Either the party ditches you to handle the rival gangers by your lonesome (bad for party cohesion), or your code forces an unscripted encounter with the local gangers that the GM is burdened with improvising and your team is saddled with resolving... while still trying to stick to the 4 hour timeframe for the rest of the scripted mission.

Gang color can be added to any outfit, Nothing is stopping you from getting then on a tie, or even using the rythurm Polymer in your sleeping tiger to display them, or your Nano-Tattoo. All that failing a nice suite in those colors those would easily meet the requirement. I'm sure you can get in a nice Kimono also if ya needed to meet Tanaka-san somewhere with the level of formality. So that's just doesn't hold up.


As to gangers vs runners, that only ever ends one way, and it's never good for the gangers, this is a pretty well known fact. So I doubt a group of gangers is going to be dumb enough to jump a runner team b/c one of them happens to be rocking a rival's colors. If it were to come up, Most likely a quick intimidate check would solve that. But if there has to be a fight, I don't think it's serous issue. It won't be a long combat and all it means is more guns and links for the runners.

On the flip side it's pretty likely the runners gang will be happy to assist them should the need arise. :D

Gang colors aren't literally just wearing specific colors.  "Wearing colors" means very specifically that you're advertising which gang you're with.  So no, a business suit with your gang colors in the tie doesn't "reasonably" count as wearing colors.  You have to be "in uniform" as opposed to wearing professional attire coordinated with gang colors.  The fact that you and I disagree on whether a tie counts as wearing colors goes back to Jayde Moon's point about how something for SRM has to be reasonably consistent.  You and I make a sample size of two but it's already not looking great for consistency on enforcing that particular tenet.

Moving on to the point about unscripted encounters being disruptive:  it's not because your characters might die.  Agreed; shadowrunners can more than ably handle an uppity pack of a dozen gangers defending their turf.  The point is they wouldn't BE defending their turf if it wasn't for that one shadowrunner broadcasting his rival gang id in the form of his colors.  Sure you can easily defeat the gangers.  Especially if it goes to combat.  But if it DOES go to combat, your chances of successfully completing the mission just went precipitously downhill.  You're going to have to find a way to bypass a scripted encounter to make up for the unscripted encounter the Code just inflicted on the team.  THAT's disruptive.

Marcus

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« Reply #38 on: (18:22:37/06-15-18) »
It's make bunch of assumption, First just b/c gangs are rivals does not mean they constantly on kill on sight mode, next gangs are worried mostly about territorial grabs one ganger and some runner is not going to look like a territorial grab. Those two points aside there is a very good chance the gangers won't even notice the runner to begin with, Runner Gangers are presumably used to have to dealing with this, so a stealth check, an illusion spell, discreetly getting into car, any all of those could negate the issue form even arising. Failing that, then a social check should solve it, failing all of those, we might see a combat. Which is going to be a very one sided fight. I doubt it will take up enough time to need to eliminate a preplanned encounter, I've certainly had runs with off script fights before and still finished on time, particularly when those combats are one sided. In conclusion I think the disruption risk is minimal. But if it does come up then, happens for good in character reasons, and it means negative qualities have real consequences, which I think is something you wanted. If you really honest to goodness think that is gonna happen and it would be a serious issue at a table, I can move to tier 2 and Eliminate the risk totally.
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« Reply #39 on: (18:23:29/06-15-18) »
Quote from: Stainless Steel Devil Rat
But if it DOES go to combat, your chances of successfully completing the mission just went precipitously downhill.  You're going to have to find a way to bypass a scripted encounter to make up for the unscripted encounter the Code just inflicted on the team.  THAT's disruptive.

I don't think that's a great selling point for SRM runs.

While I haven't *run* SRM games at a convention (which would apply there, too) I've played in many of them. I don't think it would be 'fun' for the GM (who may have only just got the Mission they're supposed to run that morning) to have to come up with something on the fly because of one character's (or fates forbid, conflicting character's- like two different gang affiliations) negative quality. I also don't think it would be 'fun' for the players that would have to deal with it from another player they just met at the table 15 minutes ago. Much less, the player complaints to CGL about a GM if a GM enforces this enough (or the players botch it up) enough to wreck the run.

Don't get me wrong, I think your ideas are pretty neat, but some of them definitely need some tweaks. It's a good direction though.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

How about making codes of honor (or at least some of them) positive qualities instead? Similar to Mentor Spirits in scope, that can help enforce a code of play, but instead give benefits, not difficulties. Reward the player for playing their code (i.e. Carrot instead of Stick).

If you act out of code enough times, or very obviously, you may lose the benefit (like the reputation qualities). It is presumed most people are aware of the code you profess (part of the data a Johnson or Tanaka san would find out before calling you in for a job)

Say, if you have Code of the Samurai, as you have written it, you get a +2 on social rolls when convincing someone to trust you. Or if you have Thug Life, you get the Etiquette Skill Specialization "Street" for free, and may pick them up as a group contact (which you'll lose that contact if you betray the gang's creed somehow- though they know when you're on the job and probably wouldn't *want* you wearing colors when running- don't want that corp or authority to bring the heat on your boys, right?).

If we want codes to be allowable, and encourage roleplaying with *possible* consequences, how about we put it on the player to portray it to maintain their benefits, and not the GM to potentially harass them with it as a penalty?

Crunch~
« Last Edit: (18:25:19/06-15-18) by Streetsam_Crunch »

Marcus

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« Reply #40 on: (18:36:59/06-15-18) »
Quote from: Stainless Steel Devil Rat
But if it DOES go to combat, your chances of successfully completing the mission just went precipitously downhill.  You're going to have to find a way to bypass a scripted encounter to make up for the unscripted encounter the Code just inflicted on the team.  THAT's disruptive.

I don't think that's a great selling point for SRM runs.

While I haven't *run* SRM games at a convention (which would apply there, too) I've played in many of them. I don't think it would be 'fun' for the GM (who may have only just got the Mission they're supposed to run that morning) to have to come up with something on the fly because of one character's (or fates forbid, conflicting character's- like two different gang affiliations) negative quality. I also don't think it would be 'fun' for the players that would have to deal with it from another player they just met at the table 15 minutes ago. Much less, the player complaints to CGL about a GM if a GM enforces this enough (or the players botch it up) enough to wreck the run.

Don't get me wrong, I think your ideas are pretty neat, but some of them definitely need some tweaks. It's a good direction though.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

How about making codes of honor (or at least some of them) positive qualities instead? Similar to Mentor Spirits in scope, that can help enforce a code of play, but instead give benefits, not difficulties. Reward the player for playing their code (i.e. Carrot instead of Stick).

If you act out of code enough times, or very obviously, you may lose the benefit (like the reputation qualities). It is presumed most people are aware of the code you profess (part of the data a Johnson or Tanaka san would find out before calling you in for a job)

Say, if you have Code of the Samurai, as you have written it, you get a +2 on social rolls when convincing someone to trust you. Or if you have Thug Life, you get the Etiquette Skill Specialization "Street" for free, and may pick them up as a group contact (which you'll lose that contact if you betray the gang's creed somehow- though they know when you're on the job and probably wouldn't *want* you wearing colors when running- don't want that corp or authority to bring the heat on your boys, right?).

If we want codes to be allowable, and encourage roleplaying with *possible* consequences, how about we put it on the player to portray it to maintain their benefits, and not the GM to potentially harass them with it as a penalty?

Crunch~


Making them 15 positive quality means you need a very strong advantage attached to each. Which conceptually doesn't bother me, but it's completely different from what already in effect.
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« Reply #41 on: (18:39:05/06-15-18) »
It's make bunch of assumption, First just b/c gangs are rivals does not mean they constantly on kill on sight mode, next gangs are worried mostly about territorial grabs one ganger and some runner is not going to look like a territorial grab. Those two points aside there is a very good chance the gangers won't even notice the runner to begin with, Runner Gangers are presumably used to have to dealing with this, so a stealth check, an illusion spell, discreetly getting into car, any all of those could negate the issue form even arising. Failing that, then a social check should solve it, failing all of those, we might see a combat. Which is going to be a very one sided fight. I doubt it will take up enough time to need to eliminate a preplanned encounter, I've certainly had runs with off script fights before and still finished on time, particularly when those combats are one sided. In conclusion I think the disruption risk is minimal. But if it does come up then, happens for good in character reasons, and it means negative qualities have real consequences, which I think is something you wanted. If you really honest to goodness think that is gonna happen and it would be a serious issue at a table, I can move to tier 2 and Eliminate the risk totally.

You're right about gangers aren't necessarily kill-on-sight with all other gangs.  However, a ganger openly moving through their turf "in colors" IS necessarily a brazen challenge to their control of their turf.  If word gets around that one ganger can walk down X street without being challenged, that gang will soon see packs bigger than one walking down that street.  Ergo, they WILL answer rival colors being openly worn on their turf.

Doesn't mean they'll shoot to kill.  Unless there is some sort of a war or feud going on they'll probably just assemble a pack and go try to intimidate the intruder to backing off their turf.  You know: a social encounter.  And it doesn't mean they can't be talked down, especially once it's clear that shadowrunners are escorting that rival ganger.  But players are what they are, and the easy solution to the confrontation of having the offending character remove his colors isn't in the cards.  Hell, the player is probably unlikely to make it easy on the team face to talk the locals down while he's behind the face throwing "wassup? whacha gonna do about me?  you gonna start somethin? I'm on your turf hoss, whacha gonna do about it?  Yeah, backoff like a bunch of slitches, I knew you would.." taunts at them like he probably should be.

Anyway Marcus I'm not dissing your ideas.. I'm just saying I think that CoHs like Thug Life have very good reasons to be banned from SRM.  And saying why I think that. I think Streetsam_Crunch is probably right in that many of those Codes would have to be re-written for SRM appropriateness rather than just toggling their karma values.
« Last Edit: (18:42:21/06-15-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

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« Reply #42 on: (18:55:45/06-15-18) »
It's make bunch of assumption, First just b/c gangs are rivals does not mean they constantly on kill on sight mode, next gangs are worried mostly about territorial grabs one ganger and some runner is not going to look like a territorial grab. Those two points aside there is a very good chance the gangers won't even notice the runner to begin with, Runner Gangers are presumably used to have to dealing with this, so a stealth check, an illusion spell, discreetly getting into car, any all of those could negate the issue form even arising. Failing that, then a social check should solve it, failing all of those, we might see a combat. Which is going to be a very one sided fight. I doubt it will take up enough time to need to eliminate a preplanned encounter, I've certainly had runs with off script fights before and still finished on time, particularly when those combats are one sided. In conclusion I think the disruption risk is minimal. But if it does come up then, happens for good in character reasons, and it means negative qualities have real consequences, which I think is something you wanted. If you really honest to goodness think that is gonna happen and it would be a serious issue at a table, I can move to tier 2 and Eliminate the risk totally.

I am a member of a rider association, motorcycle riders that do various charity works all over the united states. We wear a three piece back patch set in our colors. for those that do not know a three piece patch is typically associated as a 1% motorcycle style patch set, i.e. outlaw clubs. The number of times I have personally been pulled over by other members from various clubs is higher than you might think, and yes things do get violent on occasion. My club is not a violent group or an outlaw one in fact we have lawyers, cops, firefighters and others in our group. The only similarities we have to them is our three piece patch set and we ride motorcycles. Colors are very specific from group to group and are not something that is not recognized by other groups. Every club in our area knows who we are and what we are about because we had to have sit downs with them to get various levels of approval to be in their territories. As the president of my chapter I was the one who personally had to have these sit downs. The purpose of colors is to identify with the specific group. SSDR is very right in the amount of disruption that walking into different territories can cause and in those territories word travels faster than my motorcycle can cross it. One thing I do know for a fact, first hand, is if you don't pull over you can and sometimes will be shot. I am sure that this kind of game play is out of the scope of SRM.

On second hand knowledge I was informed during my Japanese studies in college that I would not be welcome in many establishments in japan because I had tattooing. This was due to many yakuza and gangs using tattooing to mark their members. so would this not carry over to meeting in certain locations. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe 2077 japan is more tolerant or maybe I was given incorrect info.

I think this code is realistically disruptive, but that being said. The Shadowrun world is not our world and maybe there it is not.
« Last Edit: (18:58:15/06-15-18) by Redwulfe »
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« Reply #43 on: (19:02:34/06-15-18) »
I wasn't asked to re-write them, I was asked to try and find a way to make them work in the SRM concept. If you seriously think Thug Life is going to be too disruptive say so and I'll move it.

I think this solution can work. I asked folks to mix and match if you don't agree with my rankings, please purpose changes. If you disagree with any or all this please speak up. If these make it into NT, then we are going to be living with the consequences, for a good long while. So again and again please speak up. Let me take a moment to particularly Thank SSDR. I may not agree with you bro, but I seriously value your input. 

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Streetsam_Crunch

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« Reply #44 on: (19:03:37/06-15-18) »
Making them 15 positive quality means you need a very strong advantage attached to each. Which conceptually doesn't bother me, but it's completely different from what already in effect.

Oh, no, I wasn't implying making them a 15 pt positive quality! Like I said, closer to Mentor Spirit (around 5 or so) depending on the perks as a positive. Nor am I suggesting *all* must be made positive qualities. However, focusing on the positive aspects that can be lost (rather than negatives that should be imposed) might be a way to make them work all around. Most folks don't take on codes of honor just to make it harder for themselves after all. They are often chosen for the perceived benefits of doing so (even if it just means the world might be a better place).

I completely agree that it is completely different angle to make them positive qualities, but it'll still encourage the roleplay of them and may likely make them more Missions legal from a development point of view. Particularly if they have to ban them because the penalties or play behind them doesn't outweigh the balance or benefits of points to them as a negative quality.

Just trying to take it from another angle. :)

Crunch~