[Bradd]

AR can also be a drawback. If, for example, you are simultaneously
performing a data search and holding a conference call in your head,
you are less likely to notice a ghoul sneaking up behind you.

Anyone have any guidelines for how to handle this? Our other GM was displeased with the safety and effectiveness of AR hacking, especially compared to cold-sim VR, and he figured this rule was the right way to balance things out. I agree, but I'm not sure just how much of a penalty should apply or when. We tentatively agreed that it's easy to manage AROs tied to your physical surroundings, but it's easy to spam yourself when you do too much remote work (like in the example quoted above). Therefore, when you perform more than one matrix action remotely during your pass, you suffer a –1 to –3 penalty to all actions from a self-created spam zone.

Does that sound reasonable? Any other suggestions? Just how big should the penalty be? I figure that it should be comparable to the astral perception penalty (–2), but I'm not sure.

[Ultra Violet]

First of all this rule doesn't get you far. It is only a distraction (from -1 to -3).
There is only one option, I know of, that really helps with the "AR-hacks are to powerful"-problem and that is a rule tweak option!

Limiting AR Passes
To make VR Matrix use even more advantageous over AR, the number of Initiative Passes allowed to AR users may be limited as far as Matrix use is concerned. To use this option, only one Matrix Action per Combat Turn may be performed when using AR, regardless of the actual number of Initiative Passes the character may have.

[Lansdren]

I cant say I have ever liked that optional rule.

If multiple IP's implies the ability to move faster then the average joe then limiting how fast someone can use AR seems counter productive. Yes I know its a possible balance thing but it makes no sense. Even less sense when you take into account you can AR control a commlink using DNI with a set of trodes. Technicaly it is AR as its not in VR but its still a DNI connection without the need for waving your arms in the air 'minority report' style.

The distraction at -3 can be a major pain for alot of people as perception isnt a skill normally bought very high.

[Morg]

In the RAW SR4A pg 136 Perception Test Tables subheading Situation perceiver is distracted -2. Spam zones causes an extra -1 to -3 so don't do electronic surveillance at places like The Golden Mile (Hong Kong) or University District (Seattle).
an attention coprocessor could help with the distraction penalties

side note would an attention coprocessor help offset the -2 for preforming a non-magical task while perceiving?

[Ultra Violet]

The distraction gives a couple of character types a tremendous advantage, and doesn't fix the problem.
What I meant is that:

The adept is also hard to distract (for instance, they would suffer no modifiers in a crowded nightclub or an AR spam zone).

So a AR-Hacker-Adept has no disadvantage if he had that little power, which is btw a great one for every hacking adept. And every mundane AR-Hacker is the looser in the Game.

Another little thing a spam zone gives a –1 to –3 to all actions (gamemaster’s discretion), that means not only Matrix actions!

[Bradd]

The distraction from a spam zone affects more than just Perception; it's a penalty to all actions, roughly similar to a chaotic world spell. This is separate from the Perception penalty for being distracted (which is likely when you're doing heavy hacking).

And I don't care for the optional initiative rule either, especially for DNI connections (trodes, datajack, implanted commlink).

Nice catch on the adept power, by the way. An adept hacker is a cool concept.

[Kontact]

The AR-Hacker-Adept is one of the only things holding back an unstoppable tide of cheese-dick technomancers.

You leave him the hell alone.

[Ultra Violet]

@Kontact
And the AR-Hacker-Adept is a construct of the SR4, before that only the SOTA 2064 told us about tech-adepts and before that... it was simply not possible, because Matrix & Magic didn't fit together.

Please don't get me wrong, it isn't about an adept who can kick technomancer asses, it is about the tech, AR-Tech that makes VR obsolete.

And the AR lover argue with it AR shouldn't be slower, but why not? The only thing is the trodes or DNI control but is it AR, if you use DNI or trodes? IMHO at that point it is more like cold sim VR, as it is AR.

My personal image of that tweaking option, is the picture of a console or keyboard you tip as fast as you can, but on one point you tip faster as the system can show you on the screen (a friend of mine is a secretary and she tips that fast the Word program is 10-50 signs slower than she is). You can see how slow the program is, and it is a keyboard. Now picture an AR keyboard, with the Minority Report like operating control system.
The second question is why? Why should a AR system be faster then a norm human is? Sure it could be fast but, why should it be faster? The norm is 1 IP and it is a system that is designed to work with the norm, and in symbiosis with the physical world (an world were 1 IP is the norm).
Everyone who wants to be faster in the Matrix has other options, like VR. And by fluff AR is the lowest form operating control after a physical button to push. The state of the art is VR and even usual or ordinary VR should be faster than AR in any way.
IMHO it was a mistake to say that the AR initiative is like the physical initiative. Or to take another way the other Matrix initiative should be faster every time. Why because the VR is fast as a thought or even faster, and AR is a physical control and the user is one aspect of the whole process, if you tip to fast the system (tech) will not get your command or produce an error...

I like AR, but VR should be the choice of every pro hacker, and there shouldn't be an Alternative without cooking your brain to get as fast as it goes.
That is the real problem with AR it is a safe way without risk and in some cases faster then VR. And that is not the picture you get from the fluff, it is only a construct created by some rules combined. But the background show us a picture that the non plus ultra is and will be cooking your brain on VR.

A friend of mine has an own house rule for AR in SR he said that the initiative of AR is the average (round down) of user and system. A system has usually 1 IP but could be raised up to 4 IP like an Agent or IC is. Every +1 IP costs +100% of the systems price.

But I think it is not a real solution of the problem, because it costs only more Nuyen and in the end it's the same.


yours faithfully
UV

[Bradd]

And the AR lover argue with it AR shouldn't be slower, but why not? The only thing is the trodes or DNI control but is it AR, if you use DNI or trodes? IMHO at that point it is more like cold sim VR, as it is AR.

It shouldn't be slower because you're running the same programs on the same hardware. If anything, AR has the advantage of rendering only AROs instead of full Matrix sculpting and reality filters. It also doesn't need to process biofeedback. If your commlink can't keep up with AR, then how can it keep up with VR?

Frankly, I don't see why VR should have an advantage over AR anyway. For the people who can take full advantage of it, AR is simply newer and better technology. It's like running wireless instead of wired: Other than some special applications, there's not much need to do things the old-school way.

[Ultra Violet]

It shouldn't be slower because you're running the same programs on the same hardware. If anything, AR has the advantage of rendering only AROs instead of full Matrix sculpting and reality filters. It also doesn't need to process biofeedback. If your commlink can't keep up with AR, then how can it keep up with VR?

The machine (computer) can act fast, but the AR-Interface isn't designed for fast use. At least not as fast as superhuman (2+ IP). But there is another argument on my plate. See drones and there autonomic control, they act in 3 IP not faster. And a even better argument is the remote control (that is what AR is for me in compared to VR) and look and behold the interface change simple actions in complex actions.
Just to repeat I thing the computer itself is fast enough but not the interface control of a AR, it is designed for normal common people use, not for superhumans.

Frankly, I don't see why VR should have an advantage over AR anyway. For the people who can take full advantage of it, AR is simply newer and better technology. It's like running wireless instead of wired: Other than some special applications, there's not much need to do things the old-school way.

The VR-Technology doesn't stay still, it evolves too, even after 30 years of market maturity. So it is long time there, but it's faster and better designed this days as ever before. And it's still the directly way "brain to machine"-technology without a detours over body movement and "simple for everyone"-interfaces.
AR is simple a mash up or melting technology it has to work with the physical world and so it is limited by that world and their beings (nearly all of them work on 1 IP base) and its design is a mass product so it comes from a average norm (and like I said, the norm is 1 IP), so why should it be faster then that? After all there is a well-established technology that improves the working speed and is called VR.
Do you get my point?

Only to say it again, for me it isn't about character types that benefit from that rules it is more the question about technology and logical and functional interaction between the background (world description) and rules to representing that.

And to talk old-school AR is that equivalent to snails systems of the past, only that their rule base turned out to be much faster plus all the snails advantages. And that couldn't be the RAI behind that.

I have nothing against the meat speed idea, at all. But it should be in any case slower then VR speed or it should have some disadvantages that makes it more difficult (or dangerous) to use. A good start would be that the simple action become a complex action, like remote control.
Even the old rules (SR4) had a regulation (but it was a terrible one; I speak of the different searching Interval), so they tried to regulate this in a bad way, ok. But the need to regulate and balance that problem is not a bad idea, only the chosen way was. 

[Bradd]

AR is simple a mash up or melting technology it has to work with the physical world and so it is limited by that world and their beings (nearly all of them work on 1 IP base) and its design is a mass product so it comes from a average norm (and like I said, the norm is 1 IP), so why should it be faster then that?

Because tons of people are addicted to stimulants, so that they can work faster to meet the deadlines of their wage slave white-collar jobs? It happens plenty today, and I can't imagine it would happen less in Shadowrun's drug dystopia. Even the cops use jazz because of societal pressure.

Why should AR be slower or more difficult to use anyway? Why should VR be superior? Some people will think one or the other is more cool or more useful or better suited for their character concept. Why isn't that enough?

[Morg]

[Because tons of people are addicted to stimulants, so that they can work faster to meet the deadlines of their wage slave white-collar jobs? It happens plenty today, and I can't imagine it would happen less in Shadowrun's drug dystopia. Even the cops use jazz because of societal pressure.

Why should AR be slower or more difficult to use anyway? Why should VR be superior? Some people will think one or the other is more cool or more useful or better suited for their character concept. Why isn't that enough?

I can see how AR and cold sim VR could be done at the same speed but hot sim should be processed at a much higher rate then meat space speeds because of a "stronger signal"

...but many hackers rely one the boosted signal strength to provide them with the speed they need. Under hot sim you become hyper-alert, as every sense and every neuron becomes sensitive to the translated machine code streaming through the matrix. you can literally feel the code of a program running under your fingers as your persona translates a wider degree of data that simply could not be perceived through the basic senses alone.

this also implies that you are not receiving refreshed data fast enough react to a changing situation, so you may be able to type really fast but you have to wait for the refresh to know if you made a make or for what to do next

so the fastest you could go is the cold sim speed Intuition + Response with a max of 2 IPs

[Bradd]

Yeah, I was thinking about that too. I'm sure there's pressure to make AR perform as well as possible. In addition to the corporate tweakers, there's also the gamer crowd trying to push the limits of Miracle Shooter, stuff like that. However, it's entirely reasonable to say that AR speed can't exceed VR speed. I personally don't care for the headache of tracking which IPs count as Matrix IPs, but I'm very bookkeeping-averse.

[Kontact]

VR speed goes up to 5 IP.

The cost of getting those 5 IPs is 79,000¥ and 0.5 essence of cyber plus a 5bp restricted gear quality.
Total BP cost of 21 for both or 8 and 13bp for either.

The cost of getting 3IPs in VR is 250¥ - Basically free.

The cost of getting 3IPs in AR is either:
1 - Augmentation) 32,000¥ and 3.0 essence in cyber for a total cost of 7bp (14bp and 2.4 essence for Alpha,) 160,000¥ and 1.0 essence in bioware for 32bp, or 85,000¥ and 3.0 essence plus restricted gear (for MBW2) at 22bp total.
or
2 -Magic) Improved Reflexes II (discounting the cost of being an adept) is ~25bp and for wizardry, we're looking at 12bp for the spell and the focus to bind it (again discounting the cost of magery.)

But really, things start breaking away at the 4IP mark,

3BP for gear and 5BP for RG quality gets you a Simsense Accelerator and your 4th IP in VR.  No surgery required.

For an adept, that's 40bp and a huge chunk of your potential PP.
A cyber guy pays 5bp for RGQ and 20bp of gear (nearly half his starting allotment) to spend 100,000¥ and 5.0 essence (basically, all of it,) to get Wires 3.
The mage, as always, gets off easiest.  3BP for the Improved Reflexes spell, 5bpRGQ + 8bp cash and 4bp to bind a r4 sustaining focus.  20bp on top of all the other magely costs to get that 4th pass.

"But surely, those physical passes are better because they can be used in combat!" you say.

"But I thought we were talking about 'pro-hackers' here, not part-time hackers." I say.

If you're running a front-line combat hacker, then he can't afford to get injured in the Matrix, as he will be eating bullets.  If you're making a dedicated pro hacker, then what good is being able to shoot a pistol 4 times a pass with his incredible dice pool of 5-7?

[Ultra Violet]

The cheapest Master hacker is a Magician with a couple of spells (Improved Reflexes spell and Analyze Device spell) and you have bad-ass AR-hacker. And he could make everyone to that in a couple of seconds, not only himself.

What I suggest is that VR should have an different set of actions as AR has, not only a dice pool bonus or pure speed, more different actions a AR-hacker could not perform, because he is not really in the Matrix.
A VR is able to damage the brain of the user, but what could he get in return (beside the 5th IP and hot sim bonus)? I talk about Matrix actions, that you only can do in VR. And I know it isn't RAW but I want a creative way (not simply dice pool bonus) to show that VR is better then AR.

Btw: I found another AR-hack free area, in many UV-System AR user will automatically blocked.