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adzling

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« Reply #45 on: (16:11:53/06-20-18) »
yeah i hear you kincaid but the issue is that invisibility moves with the target.

no other spell that i know of moves with a target without first giving unwilling target a resistance test.

this is logical because the caster is binding the spell to the target.

whereas Trid Phantasm is moved by the caster and is not bound to a person or thing.

also, you need to solve the "runners in an invisible van" problem.

the only way I can see to solve this without rewriting the invisibility spell entirely is to require invisibility to be used on a live being (where the spell can be bound to it's aura) and retain Trid Phantasm for creating area effect illusions that solve the "runners in a van" problem.

Xenon

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« Reply #46 on: (16:36:38/06-20-18) »
I think it is pretty clear that the intent of Invisibility and Improved Invisibility is to cast it on yourself or on a teammate.

...same as I think it is pretty clear that the intent of Mask or Physical Mask is to cast it on yourself or on a teammate.


If you want to mask a drone or a vehicle you would use Vehicle Mask from Street Grimoire.

SG p. 113 Vehicle Mask
Vehicle Mask is a variant of Physical Mask (p. 291, SR5) designed to mask the identities of vehicles and drones. By touching the targeted vehicle, the spellcaster creates an illusion that masks it to appear to be a completely different vehicle of roughly the same size. In addition to the visual mask, this spell affects the vehicle’s sound, smell, and other identifiable characteristics. Vehicle Mask can also modify a vehicle’s Signature (p. 184, SR5); each net hit scored by the caster can be used to raise or lower the vehicle’s Signature modifier by 1. The caster must be actively touching the vehicle being masked to sustain the spell.



To my knowledge there is no Vehicle Invisibility Spell.

adzling

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« Reply #47 on: (16:47:18/06-20-18) »
Sure Vehicle Mask is the right spell if you want to change it's appearance.

But if you want to make it invisible then Trid Phantasm is your go to spell imho (make the area encompassing the Van-chock-full-o-runners appear to not have a van-chock-full-o-runners be there).

I do think a dedicated vehicle invisibility type spell is another option if some enterprising writer decides to add one to a future supplement.

Xenon

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« Reply #48 on: (17:15:05/06-20-18) »
When you wrote "Trid Phantasm" I thought you meant creating an illusion of something you seen before to obscure the van and then spend a complex action to move the illusion as the van moves. Totally doable.

I didn't think you were actually trying to turn the van and everyone inside invisible (=observers on both sides of the van can still see each other as you drive between them).

Is this really something you can do with Trid Phantasm....?

adzling

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« Reply #49 on: (17:18:54/06-20-18) »
no, sorry poor writing on my part.

I meant using Trid Phantasm to make the "van go away" by replacing it with an illusory image of the scene missing the van.

Then have the mage concentrate to move the "scene minus van" Trid Phantasm around to make the van "disappear" as it drives around.

However using the same approach you could make a Trid Phantasm of a bunch of runners sitting in an "invisible" van as it "drives" down the road. It just wouldn't be an actual image of the runners but rather an illusory simulcram of them.

« Reply #50 on: (19:29:59/06-20-18) »
Another wrinkle in the Invisibility magic is it doesn't actually turn anything invisible.  Not even the Physical version (Imp. Invisibility)

Proof: Logically, it can't be invisible as people who successfully resist the spell ARE still able to perceive the light bouncing off the object.  If light were just magically passing through un-altered (i.e. it actually WERE invisible) there'd be nothing to see even if you resisted.

So, with regards to whether objects inside the invisible object are themselves visible through the invisible container... I'd have to assume not.   Light IS still being reflected/bounced by the body of the invisible object before hitting anything inside, so there's no way to visually see what's inside the "invisible" object unless they were perceptible even before the spell factored in.  Even if the Invisibility spell was somenow magically "jamming" or suppressing the reflected light coming off the invisible object, then what would be perceivable is a black blob. (which kinda defeats the purpose of invisibility)
« Last Edit: (19:32:12/06-20-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

Reaver

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« Reply #51 on: (19:51:05/06-20-18) »
I think you are all missing a key point of the "invisable grenade" trick:
The spell doesn't affect the grenade, it affects whatever tries to view the grenade. Big difference.

This is no different then casting invisibility on yourself - you don't actually disappear, but the minds/devices that fail to resist the spell think you do!

It is entirely possible in SR to be invisible to a single group of people, while being entirely visible to another group.

Using the example above of 30 people in a room, its possible a mage's invisibility spell is resisted by one, some, or all the people.... with various consquences.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Xenon

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« Reply #52 on: (02:36:22/06-21-18) »
Light IS still being reflected/bounced by the body of the invisible object before hitting anything inside...
The light that is reflected by the body of the invisible subject is the light that would have been reflected back to the observer if the subject would not have been there. The spell mimics the surroundings from all angels.

SR5 p. 291 Improved Invisibility
Improved Invisibility mimics the subject’s surroundings from all angles.


This can be read as if it mimics the inside of the van (flying shadowrunners and visible flying grenades in the bag) or that it mimics the outside of the other side of the van (invisible shadowrunners and invisible grenades).


However, the whole question is moot since you can't use Improved Invisibility on a drone or vehicle just as little as you can't use Physical Mask on a drone or vehicle. To use mask on a drone or vehicle you need the Vehicle Mask spell... And there is currently no Vehicle Invisibility spell.

IF they add a Vehicle Invisibility spell in the future THEN I am sure this spell will explicitly specify that it i will mimic the outside surroundings from all angels, making everything inside the drone or vehicle invisible as well.

If you rule that you can use the current invisibility spell on objekts you also need to classify where the limit is drawn. Can you make a drone invisible? What about a van? A bus? A helicopter? A ship? A passenger plane? Can you use it on other objects.... A table? A weapon? A bag with grenades? A house? Why stop there.... what about a skyscraper?
« Last Edit: (02:54:44/06-21-18) by Xenon »

Beta

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« Reply #53 on: (09:23:36/06-21-18) »
Why stop there.... what about a skyscraper?

The ultimate solution to old arcologies becoming eye-sores.  Just make 'em invisible!
Jawsey  --
speechthought

adzling

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« Reply #54 on: (15:14:32/06-21-18) »
Why stop there.... what about a skyscraper?

The ultimate solution to old arcologies becoming eye-sores.  Just make 'em invisible!

that would a fun one for air traffic ;-)