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Xenon

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« Reply #30 on: (15:09:02/06-19-18) »
Wait what...?

Most Illusion spells either affect the mind of each and every potential observer (for spells such as Invisibility) or the subject of the spell (for spells such as Agony) and your spell casting test is either resisted by each and every potential observer (for spells such as Invisibility) or the subject of the spell (for spells such as Agony).

Illusion spells that affect the minds of the observers are not opposed twice
(they are not first opposed by the subject or target of your spell and then opposed once again by each and every potential observer)


SR5 p. 290 Illusion Spells
Some mana illusions affect the target’s senses directly; others affect the senses of anyone perceiving the subject of the spell (though you’re never affected by your own illusion spell).
« Last Edit: (15:12:25/06-19-18) by Xenon »

adzling

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« Reply #31 on: (09:56:35/06-20-18) »
yeah your right Xenon.

i'm getting confused because normally a spell effect that is tied to a person or thing requires the person or thing to resist before it takes effect while an area effect spell (manascape and other area effect spells) can be moved by the caster if they concentrate.

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« Reply #32 on: (10:09:07/06-20-18) »
Wait what...?

Most Illusion spells either affect the mind of each and every potential observer (for spells such as Invisibility) or the subject of the spell (for spells such as Agony) and your spell casting test is either resisted by each and every potential observer (for spells such as Invisibility) or the subject of the spell (for spells such as Agony).

Illusion spells that affect the minds of the observers are not opposed twice
(they are not first opposed by the subject or target of your spell and then opposed once again by each and every potential observer)


SR5 p. 290 Illusion Spells
Some mana illusions affect the targetís senses directly; others affect the senses of anyone perceiving the subject of the spell (though youíre never affected by your own illusion spell).

I think that's right most of the time.  Object Resistance being an exception because it gives a resist test where one normally doesn't exist.  You cast Imp Invis on the Drone- maybe it just doesn't stick because it's a Drone/Object Resist.  THEN, assuming success, everyone who gets near the drone naturally gets their resist called out by the spell to see if they see through the spell.

adzling

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« Reply #33 on: (10:40:21/06-20-18) »
yeah Stainless there is some odd breakdown in srun magic's internal logic when you look at this scenario.

i think Xenon has it right per RAW but it does seem iffy when you consider thee deeper mechanics.
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #34 on: (13:49:33/06-20-18) »
Whether or not the target of the spell is supposed to resist being affected by it, I just want to make sure it is clear that Object Resistance is an opposed dice pool, not a threshold. Extremely advanced objects roll 15+ dice to resist, not set a threshold of 15...

« Reply #35 on: (13:55:17/06-20-18) »
Whether or not the target of the spell is supposed to resist being affected by it, I just want to make sure it is clear that Object Resistance is an opposed dice pool, not a threshold. Extremely advanced objects roll 15+ dice to resist, not set a threshold of 15...

But it's less clear what impact the OR has, if any, on the subsequent checks observers have to see the invisible drone.

Example:  Mage casts imp invis on the drone, as an advanced/technical object it resists the magic.  Lets say mage scores 5 hits, OR scores 4 hits.  Ok, the Drone is invisible since there's at least 1 net hit.

But when the drone tries to not be seen by observers, does the observer have a threshold set by the mages total hits or net hits vs the OR?  I'm not sure that's clear.  And it's in this case a big deal... 5 hits vs 1 hit to resist the invis...  I'd personally lean towards the net hits after OR (so 1 hit is all that's needed to resist the invis in this example) but I can see where others would argue use the total/original hits (5 in this example)

adzling

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« Reply #36 on: (14:51:16/06-20-18) »
correct!

Whether or not the target of the spell is supposed to resist being affected by it, I just want to make sure it is clear that Object Resistance is an opposed dice pool, not a threshold. Extremely advanced objects roll 15+ dice to resist, not set a threshold of 15...
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adzling

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« Reply #37 on: (15:00:58/06-20-18) »
lots of stuff to unpack here.

1). First off per RAW i think Xenon has it right; the rules do not even mention anything about making something other than a willing person invisible.

2). IMHO I do think that some kind of resistance test by an unwilling person (or the tech resistance table for an object) makes complete sense. It's just not spelled out in the Illusion spells section, hence Xenon likely has the RAW of it.

3). If you accept the logic of item 2 above then imho it also makes sense to take the net hits above the resistance check as the net successes for someone to pierce the invisibility. That way it's only ever one roll for the caster (instead of "one roll to effect the unwilling thing" and "another roll to gauge how invisible it is").

4). This does open up another interesting question. Which is "what is a target"? I mean if you put 6 grenades in a bag and you cast invisibility on the bag will the grenades inside still be invisible? If you cast invisibility on a van full of runners will the van become invisible with all the runners still visible inside floating in the "air"?

5). Given the problems that item 4 opens up then it might be better/ easier to rule that invisibility only affects something with an aura (i.e. a living being) and instead require a different spell (such as Trid Phantasm) to make a bag of grenades or van full of runners "invisible" then have the mage concentrate on the illusion to move it with the item/ items in question. This would infer a clarification on invisibility that it only works on a single living being per casting.

what do you folks think?

Whether or not the target of the spell is supposed to resist being affected by it, I just want to make sure it is clear that Object Resistance is an opposed dice pool, not a threshold. Extremely advanced objects roll 15+ dice to resist, not set a threshold of 15...

But it's less clear what impact the OR has, if any, on the subsequent checks observers have to see the invisible drone.

Example:  Mage casts imp invis on the drone, as an advanced/technical object it resists the magic.  Lets say mage scores 5 hits, OR scores 4 hits.  Ok, the Drone is invisible since there's at least 1 net hit.

But when the drone tries to not be seen by observers, does the observer have a threshold set by the mages total hits or net hits vs the OR?  I'm not sure that's clear.  And it's in this case a big deal... 5 hits vs 1 hit to resist the invis...  I'd personally lean towards the net hits after OR (so 1 hit is all that's needed to resist the invis in this example) but I can see where others would argue use the total/original hits (5 in this example)
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Spooky

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« Reply #38 on: (15:07:30/06-20-18) »
Ah! So I've got a rigger who likes having the mage turn his drone invisible. If the mage casts the spell while the rigger is jumped in, does it become cast on a willing target? Does it have to deal with OR? Questions abound....
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« Reply #39 on: (15:07:48/06-20-18) »
what do you folks think?

As fascinating a topic for rules discsussion it is... I think it's needing its own thread.  Very tangential to the original question

Kincaid

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« Reply #40 on: (15:12:45/06-20-18) »
I'd be a little concerned about over-litigating fringe cases.  Which, I know, is antithetical to the history of Shadowrun.

Making something invisible isn't making it translucent.  If the mind of the viewer fails to see the van, it doesn't suddenly perceive the passengers who, absent magic, it wouldn't be able to see in any event.

I also agree that RAW, Xenon--as is often the case--is correct.

The target thing is tricky and could/should be better defined.  RAW, it sounds as though invisible people can see themselves (perceiver and subject are distinct), which means it would be possible to make someone invisible and not have her/him notice.  All kinds of friendly fire/crossfire/even more creative ideas could stem from this.
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Xenon

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« Reply #41 on: (15:20:50/06-20-18) »
...does the observer have a threshold set by the mages total hits or net hits vs the OR?

SR5 p. 290 Illusion Spells
The magician must generate more hits than the observer for the illusion to be considered real. If the spell is not completely resisted, the target is fully affected by the illusion.

"...more hits" (not "net" hits).

adzling

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« Reply #42 on: (15:43:24/06-20-18) »
ok well i think, after a reading of the spell description it's mostly clear that invisibility only works on living things, not objects (drones, cars, etc).

that's what Trid Phantasm is for.

the text in the spell I am referring to are the mentions of "subject" in lieu of "target", the use of personal pronouns ("her") and the mention that the "subject's Aura is still visible" (dead/ non living things have no aura).

It also specifically mentions "invisible characters" but not "invisible things".

Given the above, at my table I would rule that invisibility only works on living things, for everything else you would use Trid Phantasm (which also solves the "runners in a van" problem outlined above).


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« Reply #43 on: (16:00:06/06-20-18) »
...does the observer have a threshold set by the mages total hits or net hits vs the OR?

SR5 p. 290 Illusion Spells
The magician must generate more hits than the observer for the illusion to be considered real. If the spell is not completely resisted, the target is fully affected by the illusion.

"...more hits" (not "net" hits).

Actually I think you might have convinced me with that quote, but not for the parts you thought were most important.  "the target is fully affected" convinces me.. if the Drone gets 4 hits to your 5 hits through OR, the spell works as if it had 5 hits.

The question of whether an aura-less Drone even IS a legit target for invisbility still appears to remain questionable, however.

Kincaid

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« Reply #44 on: (16:07:18/06-20-18) »
I think you might be giving too much credit to word choice.  Invisibility hides, Mask changes, Phantasm creates.  Spells in Shadowrun are generally categorical in nature and follow fairly predictable delineations.

I'm a little hesitant to talk about casting invisibility "on" something in the same way we do in D&D, for example.  Invisibility spells affect (and trigger mechanically with) people/things who attempt to interact with the illusion, so it's more akin to casting "around" someone/thing.  It's harder to be invisible in a crowded room because you've got to beat 30 rolls and the bell curve will eventually get you.
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