[Marcus]

In which book is Redliner described?

So yeah a human can be 1 agi and strength, but buying enhancements can have the limbs at 6(9) with the +3 customisation

You can customize it up to metatype maxium (in this case 5 points up to 6) and you can enhance them to +3, but yes - a human with agility 1 can get a cyberarm with agility 6(9).


Natural ratings of the body can be increased post chargen by spending Karma up to the metatype maximum. Beyond that you can augment your body. Attributes of the natural body normally have an augmented maximum of +4 (but you can break it with for example wireless enabled wired reflexes + wireless enabled reaction enhancers).

Cyberlimbs can be customized up to natural metatype maximum at installment no matter the current rating of the natural body. You can not customize the cyberlimb after installment. Cyberlimbs have attributes of their own, independent of the rest of your body. Beyond customization you can enhance cyberlimbs. Attributes of cyberlimbs have an enhancement maximum of +3.



Having said that, rules as they are written are stupid. They discourage already physically strong characters (like a troll samurai) to get chromed limbs while they encourage physically weak characters (like a decker) to get a cyberarm.

IMO in a cyberpunk universe you would much more often see a physically strong samurai with chromed arms than a decker. Rules should be changed to reflect this. Also a body with strength 1 that have cyberarms with enhanced strength of 9 should probably risk ripping his own arms out of their sockets ;-)

I think it would make more sense if they capitalized on the following fluff: You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature, to make customization limited by current natural attributes in some way.

It's in Chrome flesh, and of course it encourage low stats to get limbs, high stats always go with stat augs like muscle toner etc, low stat gets limbs that how supposed to work, why is that stupid? It's the common sense way to build, and has been for a long time Xenon, so I'm very confused as to why your saying that.

[Redwulfe]

I unfortunately don't think I would rule it that way at my table. Your natural maximum of an attribute is not the same as the attributes maximum which is what is on the metatype table. I will bold the relevant passages here for reference

core rules Page 456.

Customization: You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature. Customization lets you add to your limb’s base Strength and/or Agility ratings. Each increase of either attribute increases the limb’s Availability and cost. If either of your limb’s attributes are increased beyond your natural maximum for that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb (so don’t overdo it), but you can still add cyberlimb enhancements. You customize your cyberlimb when you buy it; you can’t customize it after purchase, but you can add enhancements.

The cyber limb is tailored to you not your racial attribute maximum and yes this would mean at my tables you would not be able to use a cyberlimb if you did not have a 3 in agility in Strength to begin with. Though I would probably house rule it that you could reduce the cost and availability using customization on a weaker limb. You could enhance that later with enhancements though.

Some may read it differently but it is not the only place we see this type of wording in the book.

Core rules Page 56.

that’s refreshed Edge points, not free Edge points—you can’t go higher than your maximum Edge. Luck only counts if you use it.

This does not refer to the human maximum of 7 or 6 for other metas, but to your attribute's maximum. Which is whatever its rating is.

Also in the book when it talks about the augmentation max it distinguishes again.

Core rules page 94.

If the attribute being raised has not reached its natural maximum limit

My point is if you argue RAW the cyber limb are separate attribute and the augmentation bonus refers to your attribute not its. then you should be consistent in that argument. You can not customize a limb past your maximums.

I think it is much easier to agree that the RAI are that you can't get more than a +4 to any of your attribute ratings, no mater where it comes form. So, a strength 1 cyber arm guy could not redline, customize or enhance past the +4 so he would be a 1(5) at best.

To me this is why they added this to the rules.

Core rules 5th printing page 94.

This applies to all sources of attribute increases. Whatever the source, or combination of sources, the maximum bonus for any attribute is always +4, unless specifically excepted.

[Marcus]

I'm confused Red what are you referring too?

[Redwulfe]

people are arguing RAW that since the cyber has an attribute you should be able to go above your +4 with the limb. Because it is the limbs attribute that is being increased not yours. if that is the case then I would say that you can't customize a limb to an attribute 6 and then enhance from their with enhancements and redliner if your attribute is 1, because customization is base on your attribute not the attributes maximum.

[Marcus]

Ok I follow what your saying. I don't agree with you but I understand your logic.

To me the critical passage is this:
Cyberlimbs have their own Strength and Agility ratings. When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber);

It also help that i think we have been doing that for a couple editions.

But for you it's:
If either of your limb’s attributes are increased beyond your natural maximum for that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb (so don’t overdo it), but you can still add cyberlimb enhancements. You customize your cyberlimb when you buy it; you can’t customize it after purchase, but you can add enhancements

The relevant section are on 455-456 of the core for those who want to read the full text.

So Red you're saying Beyond your natural maximum is not the racial maximum but your character attribute +4.

Just to be clear I don't like quality red liner in anyway, but I do think it's intended to add to the character base attribute, as I already said.

[Xenon]

...why is that stupid? It's the common sense way to build, and has been for a long time Xenon, so I'm very confused as to why your saying that.

Read some cyberpunk influenced literature and you will notice that basically only physically strong archetypes, such as street samurais or retired war veterans, have chromed arms... while weaker archetypes, like deckers, rarely have a chromed arm of death to make them god-like gunslingers. It is simply very cyberpunk-ish for a street samurai to have cybernetic limbs. It fits the overall theme of the setting.

But as rules are currently written in Shadowrun it doesn't. Instead it make perfect sense from a min-max char gen point of view to get a single high agility arm as a decker but not to replace your arms with chrome if you are a street samurai.

As rules are currently written in Shadowrun you get penalized for getting cyberlimbs if you are a physically strong metatype such as orc or troll street samurai or an agile metatype such as an elf gunslinger. In Shadowrun a street samurai with high physical attributes will potentially even limit himself to lower maximum attribute ratings if he replace his arms with chrome compared to if he would just augment his natural body.

I personally don't think Shadowrun cyberlimb rules should penalize physically strong metatypes such as dwarf, orc or troll or agile metatypes such as an elf. I don't think Shadowrun cyberlimb rules should limit the potential of a physically strong street samurai or an agile gunslinger. I don't think Shadowrun cyberlimb rules should promote physically weak archetypes such as a human decker or face getting a cyberarm of death.

I have some great house rules to change this that I posted on this very board years ago. Might try to dig them up that post at some point...


In the meanwhile my physad decker also happen to be a very skilled gunslinger thanks to the cyberam of death (which also fit his cyberdeck) and improved pistol power. And since his meat space initiative is sky high from Improved Reflexes he have no issues doing his hacking from AR, which mean he is immune to biofeedback and dump shock and that he can establish direct connections to a slaved devices or even entering hostile hosts in with his matrix persona in AR mode to get direct connection to all cameras, weapon turrets, doors, drones, elevators, etc. that are part of the WAN while being together with the on-site Shadowrun team (shooting at guards or whatnot). It is a really fun character to play. It get a lot of scene time. Thank you cyberarm of death.

[Redwulfe]

Marcus,

I agree everyone should make there own decisions on how to rule this, I don't think any are wrong. and I think that everyone should run their table by collaborating with their group for maximum fun. Thats what I love about RPGs. Though Organized play becomes a different subject and I think it needs a ruling on this for consistency sake.

Xenon is absolutely correct Cyberpunk is full of examples of the chromed strongman and not the chromed weakling.

My point is the argument is being made that since the cyberlimbs have there own Strength and Agility then they do not have to follow the rules on Augmentation max. Bu this does not change that if you customize the limb past your attribute, it will not function. The exceptions presented are Redliner and Cyberlimb Enhancements.

I think it is better to go to the middle of the two extremes, which are maxing the weakling vrs. disallowing the weakling a cyber limb, and just say the rules say and intend that you can't go past a +4 bump to your attribute. So the Str1 character can get a cyberlimb but he just got his first +2 bump since they start at 3.

It just seems like people are trying to circumvent the rule by nit picking the words and when that is done there is alway a nit pick that can be interpreted that is counter to it (My Post). I think it is RAI that you can't get above a +4 bump unless otherwise stated. Heck, most of the 5th printing clarifications was adding you can't go above augmentation max to allot of sentences.

I know we all can agree a clarification or FAQ entry would be nice but will take a while to implement.

[Xenon]

Where does it say that Redliner increase your natural attributes...??



Redliner talk about Any cyberlimbs you have installed are jacked-to-the-max, with safety limits disabled and performance overclocked beyond what the warranty normally covers...

Redliner is not talking about your natural body being jacked-to-the-max. That your heart pump faster. That your adrenaline glands produce more adrenaline. That your muscle fibers are strengthened. Nothing to indicate that overclocking your limbs would have an effect on your natural body as well.

It is pretty clear (at least to me) that Redliner increase cyberlimb enhancement maximum of +3 to +4 but only if you have a total of at least two limbs (and even up to +5 but only if you replace both arms and legs). The downside to pushing your ’ware that hard is that instead of getting 1 physical box per limb (or 2 boxes for two limbs) you lose 1 physical box per two limbs. You also have to pay 10 karma.

Your natural attributes are not affected by cyberlimbs. No matter how customized, enhanced or overclocked they are. Cyberlimbs have their own ratings separated from your natural ratings. Why would your body get stronger just because your cybernetic legs are overclocked?



Unlike Redliner, Cyber Singularity Seeker is talking about the actual character. Not his augmentations.

The character gains +1 Willpower for every two full cyberlimb replacements they get.

[Redwulfe]

Max is +2 from redline alone and it is only to the limb. Though RAW don't say that.

Page 55 Chrome flesh

You receive +1 Strength and +1 Agility for every two full cyberarms or cyberlegs installed, up to a maximum of +2 for both attributes (sorry, no super centipede-man builds)

I was just posting in general all of the buffs that where being suggested to cyberlimbs that allow a strength 1 character to sudenly apply a Strength 10 or agility 10. I say that Augmentation max does not apply to the limb separately from yourself for the reasons stated in previous posts but it is still limited to your attribute +4 even with the replacement of a limb.

In other words you should not be able to bypass the augmentation limit using the current wording of these rules as an argument. because it can be counter pointed by other rules in the book.

[Xenon]

As I read it Cyber Singularity give you an augmented willpower of +1 up to your augmented maximum as long as you have two full cyberlimbs or +2 as long as you have all four cyberlimbs. A character with Willpower 4 and 4 cyberlimbs and the Cyber Singularity PQ would have Willpower 4(6). There are actually not that many augmentations that give bonus to Willpower which make it pretty cool. If you for some reason lose your cyberlimbs then you would no longer take advantage of this increase to your Willpower rating similar that if you no longer have a Cerebral Booster Rating 1 you would no longer take advantage of the increase to your Logic rating.

As I read it Redliner let you push the limit of what your cyberlimbs can take which will increase their Strength and Agility attribute ratings of with +1 if you have two limbs or +2 if you have four limbs. Even if they are already enhanced by +3. Cyberlimbs doesn't actually have an augmented maximum rating like natural attributes do, just that there are not many ways that can raise the attributes of your cyberlimbs besides customization (up to natural maximum and only before installment) and enhancement (up to +3 and enhancements can be replaced after installment) - and now also Redliner (up to +2 but only if you have all 4 limbs). Redliner is pretty specific that it is pushing the limits of what Cyberlimbs are designed for. But pushing the limits of your cyberlimbs also come with drawback to your cyberlimbs (instead of giving you up to +4 physical boxes you instead get down to -2 physical boxes). I would argue that four basic cyberlimbs that are customized up to 6 and then enhanced to 6(9) would end up 6(11) if you also add Redliner.

Reading the Errata it is also clear that the Author intended that Redliner also add +2 to natural attributes in addition to cyberlimb attributes, and that the bonus to your natural attributes will count towards the normal augmented maximum of +4. It was not clear if he also intended that cyberlimbs would be limited to +4 or if you could push it all the way to +5 if you replace all 4 limbs. I don't think I've ever seen anyone take 4 cyberlimbs so I don't think I will have to worry too much about this to be honest. Our Strength 1 human would end up with Strength 1(3) and 4 limbs with Strength 6(11) (or Strength 6(10) if your table apply augmented maximum of +4 to cyberlimbs as well and doesn't let Redliner+Enhancements break this limit).




"natural maximum" strength for a human is 6 (not 4 more than your current attribute value). There are several references to this (see below).

By RAW you can customize your cyberlimbs to natural maximum (which is 6 for a human, see Metatype Attribute Table on SR5 p. 66) no matter what your current natural attribute rating is and also no matter what your current augmented attribute rating is. A human with Strength 1 can get a cyberlimb. A basic cyberlimb always have a Strength rating of 3 and will add one physical box. A cyberlimb that goes into a human body can be customized to Strength 6 (the natural maximum for humans). You cannot customize it further than that if it is supposed to go into a human. A troll getting a cyberlimb will also start at Strength 3 but can be customized up to 10). Beyond that it can be enhanced up to 6(9) for a human or 10(13) for a troll. A Strength 1 human could potentially end up with 4 limbs that all have 6(9) Strength. This give him +4 physical boxes. If he also spend 10 Karma to have the Redliner PQ then he would still have a natural Strength of 1 but two arms and two legs that have a Strength rating of 6(11) -- or maybe 6(10) if cyberlimbs also obey the augmented maximum of +4--, but instead of +4 physical boxes he would have -2 physical boxes.



"natural maximum":


SR5 p. 66 Mental and Physical Attributes
Characters at character creation may only have 1 Mental or Physical attribute at their natural maximum limit; the special attributes of Magic, Edge, and Resonance are not included in this imitation.

SR5 p. 94 Spend your Resources
If the attribute being raised has not reached its natural maximum limit, the attribute can be raised naturally with Karma

SR5 p. 257  Increased Resonacne
The natural maximum for your Resonance attribute is 6 + your Submersion grade.

SR5 p. 324 Initiation
Initiation allows you to wield greater magical abilities known as metamagics and raise your Magic attribute beyond the natural maximum of 6.

SR5 p. 325 Increased Magic
The natural maximum for your Magic attribute is 6 + your grade of initiation.

SR5 p. 397 Essence Drain
A critter can only increase its Essence to twice its natural maximum.

SR5 p. 456 Cyberlimbs Customization
If either of your limb’s attributes are increased beyond your natural maximum for that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb (so don’t overdo it), but you can still add cyberlimb enhancements.

[Redwulfe]

+1 Xenon, I can see your point and fully agree and agree. Thank you for showing me those passages it helped a lot.

[Marcus]

Your natural attributes are not affected by cyberlimbs. No matter how customized, enhanced or overclocked they are. Cyberlimbs have their own ratings separated from your natural ratings. Why would your body get stronger just because your cybernetic legs are overclocked?

We know that's not actually true, as red liner directly decreases your CM boxes, which directly derived from natural attributes, so very clear it does effect them. The wording of it says your attribute, not your cyberlimb attribute, and if you think about it,  if you go other direct just means saving limb capacity. Nothing in red-liner says you can exceed caps, so you can't. 


Concerning your assessment of chromed tough guys systems are systems, tough guys lose limbs in fight, I've had character lose limbs in fights before, and they were plenty tough before and after. The system won't stop you from making a tough guy who is also chromed out. Min/maxing is min/maxing, that fact that works well is great but it's not the only method by any means.

[Marcus]

As I read it Cyber Singularity give you an augmented willpower of +1 up to your augmented maximum as long as you have two full cyberlimbs or +2 as long as you have all four cyberlimbs. A character with Willpower 4 and 4 cyberlimbs and the Cyber Singularity PQ would have Willpower 4(6). There are actually not that many augmentations that give bonus to Willpower which make it pretty cool. If you for some reason lose your cyberlimbs then you would no longer take advantage of this increase to your Willpower rating similar that if you no longer have a Cerebral Booster Rating 1 you would no longer take advantage of the increase to your Logic rating.

As I read it Redliner let you push the limit of what your cyberlimbs can take which will increase their Strength and Agility attribute ratings of with +1 if you have two limbs or +2 if you have four limbs. Even if they are already enhanced by +3. Cyberlimbs doesn't actually have an augmented maximum rating like natural attributes do, just that there are not many ways that can raise the attributes of your cyberlimbs besides customization (up to natural maximum and only before installment) and enhancement (up to +3 and enhancements can be replaced after installment) - and now also Redliner (up to +2 but only if you have all 4 limbs). Redliner is pretty specific that it is pushing the limits of what Cyberlimbs are designed for. But pushing the limits of your cyberlimbs also come with drawback to your cyberlimbs (instead of giving you up to +4 physical boxes you instead get down to -2 physical boxes). I would argue that four basic cyberlimbs that are customized up to 6 and then enhanced to 6(9) would end up 6(11) if you also add Redliner.

Reading the Errata it is also clear that the Author intended that Redliner also add +2 to natural attributes in addition to cyberlimb attributes, and that the bonus to your natural attributes will count towards the normal augmented maximum of +4. It was not clear if he also intended that cyberlimbs would be limited to +4 or if you could push it all the way to +5 if you replace all 4 limbs. I don't think I've ever seen anyone take 4 cyberlimbs so I don't think I will have to worry too much about this to be honest. Our Strength 1 human would end up with Strength 1(3) and 4 limbs with Strength 6(11) (or Strength 6(10) if your table apply augmented maximum of +4 to cyberlimbs as well and doesn't let Redliner+Enhancements break this limit).




"natural maximum" strength for a human is 6 (not 4 more than your current attribute value). There are several references to this (see below).

By RAW you can customize your cyberlimbs to natural maximum (which is 6 for a human, see Metatype Attribute Table on SR5 p. 66) no matter what your current natural attribute rating is and also no matter what your current augmented attribute rating is. A human with Strength 1 can get a cyberlimb. A basic cyberlimb always have a Strength rating of 3 and will add one physical box. A cyberlimb that goes into a human body can be customized to Strength 6 (the natural maximum for humans). You cannot customize it further than that if it is supposed to go into a human. A troll getting a cyberlimb will also start at Strength 3 but can be customized up to 10). Beyond that it can be enhanced up to 6(9) for a human or 10(13) for a troll. A Strength 1 human could potentially end up with 4 limbs that all have 6(9) Strength. This give him +4 physical boxes. If he also spend 10 Karma to have the Redliner PQ then he would still have a natural Strength of 1 but two arms and two legs that have a Strength rating of 6(11) -- or maybe 6(10) if cyberlimbs also obey the augmented maximum of +4--, but instead of +4 physical boxes he would have -2 physical boxes.



"natural maximum":


SR5 p. 66 Mental and Physical Attributes
Characters at character creation may only have 1 Mental or Physical attribute at their natural maximum limit; the special attributes of Magic, Edge, and Resonance are not included in this imitation.

SR5 p. 94 Spend your Resources
If the attribute being raised has not reached its natural maximum limit, the attribute can be raised naturally with Karma

SR5 p. 257  Increased Resonacne
The natural maximum for your Resonance attribute is 6 + your Submersion grade.

SR5 p. 324 Initiation
Initiation allows you to wield greater magical abilities known as metamagics and raise your Magic attribute beyond the natural maximum of 6.

SR5 p. 325 Increased Magic
The natural maximum for your Magic attribute is 6 + your grade of initiation.

SR5 p. 397 Essence Drain
A critter can only increase its Essence to twice its natural maximum.

SR5 p. 456 Cyberlimbs Customization
If either of your limb’s attributes are increased beyond your natural maximum for that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb (so don’t overdo it), but you can still add cyberlimb enhancements.

This is consistent with my understanding of the rules. With the exception, on red liner, if something is intended to exceed a Cap, (See Wired Reflex and reaction enhancers) it has to specific call it out, and unless it's in the errata, it's not called out in the Chrome Flesh. I will take your word that it was both in the errata, I haven't read it.

[Xenon]

Your natural attributes are not affected by cyberlimbs.

We know that's not actually true, as red liner directly decreases your CM boxes, which directly derived from natural attributes

I am fully aware that regular cyberlimbs increase CM boxes by 1 per limb. That is why I wrote "Your natural attributes are not affected by cyberlimbs" instead of "Your natural attributes or anything derived from your natural attributes are not affected by cyberlimbs" ;-)

Having said that, since I now read through the Errata it is clear that the Author intended for Redline to augment both cyberlimbs and natural attributes.

Nothing in red-liner says you can exceed caps, so you can't. 

It is clear that natural attributes have an augmented maximum (+4 over the natural, unaugmented attribute).

Nothing in the core book says that cyberlimbs have an augmented maximum at all.

Before Redliner the maximum you could enhance cyberlimbs was +3. The de facto limit for cyberlimbs was +3.... But that was just because there was no other way to enhance your cyberlimbs. Not because there was a rule that stated that cyberlimbs "have an augmented maximum of +3 over the customized, unenhanced attribute".

Maybe cyberlimbs can only have +3 over the customized, unenhanced attribute. In that case Redliner with 4 limbs will only give +2 on limbs that have enhancement rating 1.

Maybe cyberlimbs can have +4 over the customized, unenhanced attribute similar to natural attributes. In that case Redliner with 4 limbs will only give +2 on limbs that have enhancement rating 2.

Maybe cyberlimbs does not have a limit of how much they can be enhanced over the customized, unenhanced attribute. In that case Redliner with 4 limbs will always give +2 and the new de facto limit on cyberlimbs will be +5.

Personally I don't think it matters (mostly because I don't think I ever seen anyone take 4 cyberlimbs).



What is clear is that your natural attributes have an agumented maximum (+4 over the natural, unaugmented attribute). And that it is clear from the Errata that the Author did not intended for Redline to break this limit.

[Mollari]

Hi there guys

Xeon, thanks for such a comprehensive answer. I agree with your assessments.

Marcus, you mention that if something is to exceed the cap ot has to specifically call it out. I disagree with that because I believe the book has done the opposite.

It has specifically attatched the augmented maximum to bio, cyber, drugs and magic. It isn't an:

A, unless B

As in, nothing can break augmented limit unless otherwise stated

But it's been

A, and B and C and D, except E

As in cyber, and bio, and drugs, and magic, except wired reflexes and reaction enhancers.

So to my mind the book has not made a flat ruling on what augmented limits are, but instead listed where they apply. So,

Does anyone have any ruling about wether qualities are subject to augmented limits or even racial maximums?