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Defense tests and environmental modifiers

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mrjames

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« on: (15:07:10/04-09-18) »
So as i have been working on cleaning things up for a new roll20 campaign. I came across defending and noticed something i missed before. "Apply appropriate wound, environmental, and situational modifiers to the defender according to the specific attack." So the environmental modifiers would be the wind, glare, range, visibility. I understand range is a big deal, does anyone else impose the additional glare, wind, visibility modifiers? Does it only apply to range? I can see where you would have a situation where the attacker has better compensation than the defender. Thus, giving him the edge, and vice versa, defending maintaining a bigger pool because the attacker doesn't have enough compensation. I just wanted some thoughts.

« Reply #1 on: (15:50:41/04-09-18) »
Generally environmental modifiers are hindering the attacker rather than defender.  When it's saying don't forget to apply environmental modifiers, it's primarily cover that'd be relevant to the defense test (as a bonus to it!).  Visibility problems go to penalizing the attacker's half of the opposed test.

Of course there's also situational modifiers that'd affect the defender's defense test like being wounded, having already been attacked prior in the same initiative pass, and whatever unique circumstances the GM may call as appropriate.  Keep in mind that if the defender is unaware of the attack there's no defense test at all!  (Snipers are deadly...)

Tecumseh

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« Reply #2 on: (14:25:33/04-10-18) »
Stainless Steel Devil Rat is correct. For the most part, environmental modifiers (wind, glare, range, visibility) are going to apply to the attacker instead of the defender.

I can imagine some circumstances that the defender might be affected, such as if they are trying to parry but can't see the attacker well (due to too much or too little light). I can't think of situations off the top of my head where wind or range would apply to the defender.

Situational modifiers for the defender might be things like "I'm swimming, so dodging is harder" or "my feet are encased in concrete, so my mobility is limited". The standard modifiers that Stainless Steel Devil Rat mentions are also relevant.

Xenon

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« Reply #3 on: (10:49:14/04-20-18) »
Keep in mind that if the defender is unaware of the attack there's no defense test at all!  (Snipers are deadly...)
...but if the target happen to be behind partial (or full) cover it will roll 2 (or 4) dice as a pool of its own. This pool also apply to inmate objects that normally are not allowed to take a defense test.

But yes. Snipers are really deadly.

Consider this:

Sniper with a dice pool that is close to 20 dice take a shot at a wall where he suspect that his target might be behind but he doesn't have visual confirmation, in a blistering snow storm and in total darkness while located close to 1500 meters away... and not using a scope.
- Target unaware but roll 4 dice as a pool of its own
- Attacker take a -10 environmental modifier
- Barrier rules apply (as long as modified DV is higher than armor of the barrier then the barrier take 1 box of damage while the rest hit the unaware target behind the barrier).

Now you say "wait a minute!".

"In order to take the Blind Fire modifier he must have some idea of where the target is located, right?". Wrong.

Pay attention. This is the part where it get really interesting :)

Blind fire seem to only be applied when you have really no freekin idea at all where your target is located... as soon as you get any indication on where your target is you are no longer firing blind. Even the slightest indication seem to be enough.

For example:

It make total sense that you cannot use your big pool of dice to attack an invisible target if you can't sense him in any way (it will be totally random if you hit or not... use supressive fire and other AoE attacks, right?) and it make total sense that if you hear an invisible target... then you have an idea of roughly where the target is but you still can't see him so you take the blind fire modifier and try to hit him. Right`?
-Wrong!

Crunch wise you take the blind fire if you can't smell him or in any other way sense where he is. When you have NO idea where the invisible target is. If you have a rough idea where your target is (because you friggin smell his deodorant or whatever) then you don't take a negative modifier at all. This is RAW.


It make total sense that you cannot use your big pool of dice to attack a target behind a wall if you have no idea where behind the wall your target is located and it make sense that if you have a rough idea where behind the wall your target is located because you have a drone to spot for you then you take the blind fire modifier to try to him.
- Wrong!

Crunch wise you take the blind fire if your target is 100% hidden from you. If you can see even 1% of him then you get a rough idea where behind the wall your target is located and you no longer use blind fire. In fact you no longer take negative dice modifier at all (but the unaware target get 4 dice to oppose you which i guess can count as a negative dice pool modifier of sorts). If you have a drone behind the wall to show you where the target is then you are not totally unaware where your target is located and you should no longer fire completely blind.



SR5 p. 178 Blind Fire
Whether due to darkness or cover, if the shooter doesn’t know where the target is, they apply the Blind Fire modifier. This modifier is the same as the Total Darkness modifier and as such is not cumulative with it, but if strong winds or extreme range are also involved an additional -4 penalty can be applied. Some additional rules apply if the attacker is shooting through cover (see Shooting Through Target Barriers, p. 197).

(If you don't know where the target is at all you take this modifier)


SR5 p. 188 Defending in Combat
Note that even stationary or inanimate targets may have a defense dice pool if they have Partial or Good cover.

(stationary or inanimate targets behind more than 25% but less than 50% cover get 2 defense dice as a pool of its own and 4 dice if behind more than 50% cover)


SR5 p. 189 Defender unaware of attack
If the defender is unaware of an incoming attack (he does not see the attacker, the attacker is behind him, or he is surprised), then no defense is possible. Treat the attack as a Success Test instead. This does not apply to defenders who are already engaged in combat (see Character Has Superior Position, p. 187). If the defender is behind cover, the defense dice pool is determined by the cover, according to the Defense Modifiers table.

(Unaware Target behind more than 25% but less than 50% cover with or without taking a Take Cover action get 2 defense dice as a pool of its own and 4 dice if behind more than 50% cover)


SR5 p. 190 Defender/Target has Good Cover
If the Defender uses a Take Cover action to get behind something where more than fifty percent of the defender’s body is obscured by intervening terrain or cover, he gains a +4 dice pool modifier to his Defense roll against any attack. This modifier can also apply to prone targets that are at least twenty meters away from their attackers. This modifier is applicable to both Ranged Combat and Spellcasting.
Note that this modifier does not negate the Blind Fire modifier the attacker suffers. Both the modifiers to the attacker and to the defender would apply when firing at a target that is totally concealed (one hundred percent behind cover).


(If the target is covered by less than 100% then then blind fire modifier does not apply).


SR5 p. 197 Shooting through barriers
If the defender is completely hidden behind the barrier, the attacker suffers a –6 Blind Fire dice pool modifier for not being able to see his intended target, but the hidden defender is considered unaware of the attack. If the barrier between the attacker and defender is transparent, like bullet resistant glass, there is no cover or obstruction to sight, but the attack must penetrate the barrier to reach the defender (see Penetration Weapons, p. 198).

(If you don't see the target at all, then you take the blind fire modifier)


SR5 p. 198 Shooting through a Barrier example
Wombat is hunkered down behind a concrete barrier reloading his Ares Light Fire 70. An Ares security goon makes his best guess where Wombat is and takes a shot with his Defiance T-250. With the Blind Fire penalty, he only has 4 dice but scores 2 hits. Since Wombat is behind the cover, the barrier takes the hit first. Base damage is 9P, modified by the 2 hits to 11P. This is far less than the Armor rating of the concrete, which is 20, so the shot stops dead.
When Wombat moves behind a security door (Armor 12) he stops for a quick breather. The goon takes a shot and scores 3 hits this time (lucky goon). The modified DV of the attack is 12P, equal to the Armor of 12, so the shot punches through. The door takes 1 box of damage, and 11P passes through to hit Wombat.


(the guard don't know where behind the concrete barrier or the security door wombat is so he take a -6 blind fire penalty and just fire away)


SR5 p. 291 Invisibility
The subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other senses (hearing, smell, touch, and even taste, if it somehow comes to that). Her aura is still visible to astral perception.
Attacks against invisible targets suffer the Blind Fire modifier if the attacker is unable to see or otherwise sense the subject of the spell.


(if you don't sense the target at all then you take the blind fire modifier and just fire away. If you do sense the target with one of your senses, such as hearing, then blind fire does not apply).
« Last Edit: (11:17:32/04-20-18) by Xenon »

« Reply #4 on: (11:28:51/04-20-18) »
Keep in mind that if the defender is unaware of the attack there's no defense test at all!  (Snipers are deadly...)
...but if the target happen to be behind partial (or full) cover it will roll 2 (or 4) dice as a pool of its own. This pool also apply to inmate objects that normally are not allowed to take a defense test.


Touche.  You're absolutely correct... but 2-4 dice still is probably just a formality of an extra step before crumpling your character sheet (or Burning an Edge to live thorugh it..)

Quote
...
"In order to take the Blind Fire modifier he must have some idea of where the target is located, right?". Wrong.

Pay attention. This is the part where it get really interesting :) ...

I'm not sure I'm completely on board with your synthesis.  If you were correct, that'd mean I could just take the blind fire penalty and "shoot" into the unknown if I went first in an ambush, even if the only perception of a threat I have is the meta knowledge that initiative had been rolled.  I'm firmly of the opinion (even if it's not RAW) that you need to be able to call out to the GM which square on the battle mat you're imagining your target is lurking, or behind which bit of cover you're shooting through if you're not using minis/mats.  Because, well, the alternative is:  "I just shoot.   Doesn't matter where, I'll take my blind fire penalty and somehow the bullets will home in if I get any hits.."

Xenon

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« Reply #5 on: (12:41:18/04-20-18) »
I find it a bit strange as well, but I included the rules above... They actually seem pretty clear.

If you can smell, hear or touch (but not see) an invisible target then I would thought you would take the Blind Fire modifier to hit him. But you don't. In fact, by RAW, it seem as if you would take no negative dice pool modifier at all.

If you can't see nor smell, hear or touch an invisible target then I would thought you would not be able to hit at all. Unless maybe if you use AoE and get lucky. But, by RAW, it seem as if you would just take the Blind Fire modifier.


If you were correct, that'd mean I could just take the blind fire penalty and "shoot" into the unknown if I went first in an ambush...
If you for example are a PhysAd with Combat Sense then you would always be allowed a perception test. If the "tingling spider sense" of yours is successful then yes, by RAW, it seem as if you would be allowed to take the shot at your [hidden] attacker.

If you don't actually see your attacker (because you know, he might be hidden behind a concrete barrier, a security door or having an active invisibility spell) you would take a Blind Fire modifier of -6 dice... But as long as you smell, hear, touch or see at least 1% of your attacker then, by RAW, it seems as if you would just go ahead and shoot him (without talking a negative dice pool modifier at all).

Marcus

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« Reply #6 on: (14:32:35/04-20-18) »
Whether due to darkness or cover, if the shooter doesn’t know where the target is, they apply the Blind Fire modifier. This modifier is the same as the Total Darkness modifier and as such is not cumulative with it, but if strong winds or extreme range are also involved an additional -4 penalty can be applied. Some additional rules apply if the attacker is shooting through cover (see Shooting Through Target Barriers, p. 197).


There is a big difference between b/c it's dark and the target is behind that wall over there and I have no idea where the target is.
You don't exactly where the target is, but you know mostly where the target is.
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #7 on: (15:20:52/04-20-18) »
Where did the idea that hearing or smelling the target can eliminate the blind fire penalty? I don't see that referenced in the rules that you quoted. Unless you have some way to know the exact location of your target despite not being able to see them, the Blind Fire penalty would apply.

Having absolutely no idea where the target is, such as because you have no sense that someone is there except that you think there might be. Means you have no real way to target them. Tell the GM where you are firing your weapon (including a Blind Fire penalty), and maybe you might be lucky that you targeted the right place. Just applying the penalty doesn't mean you magically have a chance to hit.

And smelling your target doesn't eliminate Blind Fire...

Xenon

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« Reply #8 on: (15:39:59/04-20-18) »
Where did the idea that hearing or smelling the target can eliminate the blind fire penalty? I don't see that referenced in the rules that you quoted.

SR5 p. 291 Invisibility
The subject is completely tangible and detectable by the other senses (hearing, smell, touch, and even taste, if it somehow comes to that). Her aura is still visible to astral perception.
Attacks against invisible targets suffer the Blind Fire modifier if the attacker is unable to see or otherwise sense the subject of the spell.


1. You can still be detected by other senses (hearing, smell, touch, taste).
2. Attack against you do not suffer the Blind Fire modifier if the attacker is able to sense you.
« Last Edit: (15:43:43/04-20-18) by Xenon »

« Reply #9 on: (15:45:48/04-20-18) »
Again there's a distinction between sensing the presence and the location.  Arguably, you could indeed say that by RAW the rules say you need only sense in any degree, without location being necessary.

But that kind of argument is silly from a common sense point of view.  If you only know someone invisible is in the room with you because you can smell his BO, it doesn't mean you know which direction to shoot to hit him.  If the room were in ankle deep water and you saw the displaced footprints in that water, then you know where to shoot.  With the blind fire penalty, because you only know generally where he is.  (Although arguably you could shoot at his water-displacing feet without the blind fire penalty, but that'd then incur the called shot as the rules presume you're going for center-of-mass shots...)

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #10 on: (16:43:56/04-20-18) »
First off, your citation only (technically) applies if the target is the subject of an Invisibility spell. The rules for Blind Fire don't preclude the application of the penalty purely for the ability to hear or smell the otherwise unseen target. It just says it applies if you can't see the target.

In addition, "or otherwise sense the subject of the spell" is not referring to any sense. This is a setting where there is technology, magic, and a multitude of ways to locate a target. Astral Perception, Ultrasound sensors, and the like are other "senses" that allow you to target someone. Without some really special bonuses, no, you can't target someone purely through sense of smell...

PiXeL01

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« Reply #11 on: (18:20:35/04-20-18) »
In complete agreement with Kiirnodel. Blind-fire is applied any time you cannot get a fixed position on a target due to lack of sight or anything else that precisely locates a target.
If you see a guard dive behind a desk but you lose total sight of him? Blind fire modifier plus the guard gets to roll the four dice for being in complete coverage.

As written visual environmental modifiers only apply to melee if the combatants do not share sight band.

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #12 on: (18:53:36/04-20-18) »
It's also worth noting that in that "guard dive behind a desk" sitation, that the guard does not suffer from the Defender Unaware of Attack penalty, they still get a defense test as normal. Because this would fall into the category of a defender that is already engaged in combat. If the GM feels that the attacker has an advantage in that situation (more tactical control over the situation because they aren't crouched under a desk with their arms over their head), then the attacker would get a +2 for Superior position (counteracting some of the Blind Fire penalty), but the defender still gets to roll a defense test (with Cover bonus).

And before people jump in with the "but the defender can't see the attacker so they are unaware!" or "if you can't see the attacker you can't dodge the attack!" remember that this is literally dodging bullets. Seeing the gun firing really isn't a serious advantage there.

« Reply #13 on: (19:20:54/04-20-18) »
Seems like the time for a timely movie reference.


Xenon

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« Reply #14 on: (02:06:38/04-21-18) »
Blind-fire is applied any time you cannot get a fixed position on a target due to lack of sight or anything else that precisely locates a target.
Yes, but how would you explain the Invisibility thing I just quoted...?

It's also worth noting that in that "guard dive behind a desk" sitation, that the guard does not suffer from the...
The defender does not get to take a defense test against an incoming attack if:
1. He does not see the attacker
2. The attacker is behind him
3. He is surprised.

There are two exceptions.

1. Defender that is already engaged in combat and a melee attacker is:
- sitting over the defender's back in a grapple.
- attacking from behind.
- attacking from above.
(In this case the defender of the melee attack get to take a defense test and the melee attacker get a positive dice pool modifier of 2 dice from the melee modifier Character Have Superior Position)

2. If the unaware defender happen to be behind cover, the defense dice pool is determined by the cover, according to the Defense Modifiers table.
(In this case the unaware defender roll 2 or 4 dice as a pool of its own)


...with Cover bonus...
If a defender that is aware of an incoming attack actually spend an action to Take Cover then he get a positive dice pool modifier of 2 (or 4) dice to his defensive test ("Cover bonus").

If a defender that is aware of an incoming attack happen to be behind cover (due to normal movement or whatever) without actually spending a Take Cover action then he does not get a positive dice pool modifier to his defense test (but he still get to take a defense test).

If a defender that is unaware of an incoming attack happen to be behind cover, the entire defense dice pool is determined by the cover, according to the Defense Modifiers table. It is rolled as a pool of its own. No need for Taking Cover.

The attacker either doesn't get a negative dice pool modifier at all or he get a Blind Fire Environmental penalty (if he can't see or otherwise sense an invisible target, total darkness or 100% of the defender is behind cover, also see barrier penetration rules).


And before people jump in with the ...

SR5 p. 197 Shooting through Barriers
If the defender is completely hidden behind the barrier, the attacker suffers a –6 Blind Fire dice pool modifier for not being able to see his intended target, but the hidden defender is considered unaware of the attack.
« Last Edit: (12:35:01/04-21-18) by Xenon »