NEWS

Spirits of Man and Sustained Spells

  • 28 Replies
  • 1019 Views

SunRunner

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 220
« Reply #15 on: (08:54:17/04-05-18) »
Its also worth noting in the countering spirits buffing category. that Anyone with the counterspelling skill which includes Mystic adepts and some spirits can try and counter the spell. I will also point out that if your having the spirit cast the spells then you are only getting the spirits casting dice pool and it is suffering sustaining penalties so if your using it to cast 2 different spells the 2nd one cast will have a -2 applied to the casting check because its already sustaining one spell. And then from that point on its at -4 to all of its actions if you decide to have it do anything besides sit at home and sustain those buffs for you. Now i am not saying its not powerful and very useful way to apply your spirits but it does have some inherent limitations. Another thing to think about is wards, if the mage encounters any wards while using this strategy he now has to deal directly with the ward to keep his spells. This is important because its hard to deal with any kind of ward quietly unless your have invested in some very specific meta magics. For a normal mage the ward is a minor inconvenience as he can simply dismiss his spells, turn off foci and stop any astral activity and then walk through the ward without tripping the alarm. If your using the spirit sustain method you have to have your spirit stop sustaining the spells, do everything else, walk through the ward, then call your spirit back burn up 2 more services to have him recast the spells and then send him back to. Its not massively problematic except for wards can crank up the service cost overhead a bit.

ShadowcatX

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 573
« Reply #16 on: (17:13:06/04-05-18) »
A mage can press through the barrier and bring spells along (assuming he has enough successes) with him without setting off any alerts. Interestingly enough, the stat controlling the number of spirits is the same stat that helps you push through the mana barrier.

« Reply #17 on: (21:40:42/04-05-18) »
Hasn't it been pointed out previously that spirits are quite visible when doing this?

Don't they have to be on the same plane as you?

I don't think this is true, but I'd love to hear more opinions.  Far as I knew the only restriction on planar matching was on casting the spell.. which would allow a Materialized spirit to cast a spell (or spells, depending on whether Innate Spell can be picked more than once) and then shift back to pure astral after having begun to sustain it/them?

kyoto kid

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 599
  • Bushido Cowgirl
« Reply #18 on: (00:05:08/04-06-18) »
...so let me see if I have this right.

For my Mystic Adept Wednesday, who's tradition is Black Magic, when she summons a spirit of Man the spell that she would want sustained is the one she summons him with (for example Increase Charisma) correct?  Now does the spirit need to cast then sustain the spell on her or can she cast it herself and have the spirit sustain it?

Need to know if I am doing this right as playing a spellslinger isn't my strong point.
Forsaken daughter is watching you

SpellBinder

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
« Reply #19 on: (08:45:18/04-06-18) »
...so let me see if I have this right.

For my Mystic Adept Wednesday, who's tradition is Black Magic, when she summons a spirit of Man the spell that she would want sustained is the one she summons him with (for example Increase Charisma) correct?  Now does the spirit need to cast then sustain the spell on her or can she cast it herself and have the spirit sustain it?

Need to know if I am doing this right as playing a spellslinger isn't my strong point.
As a single service under the Power Use option, the summoned (and presumed unbound) spirit of man will Materialize (if it isn't already, because the spell is Physical), use it's own Spellcasting skill to cast the Increase Charisma spell it gets as an optional power, and it will sustain that spell (taking Drain and the -2 penalty that comes with sustaining) for as long as you need it or until the sun rises/sets.

SunRunner

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 220
« Reply #20 on: (08:59:21/04-06-18) »
...so let me see if I have this right.

For my Mystic Adept Wednesday, who's tradition is Black Magic, when she summons a spirit of Man the spell that she would want sustained is the one she summons him with (for example Increase Charisma) correct?  Now does the spirit need to cast then sustain the spell on her or can she cast it herself and have the spirit sustain it?

Need to know if I am doing this right as playing a spellslinger isn't my strong point.

Umm Both,

If it is just a summoned spirit of man you need to give it the optional power spell and then have it cast the spell on you and sustain that costing a service, possible 2 if your GM feels your abusing it too much. If you have a spirit bound and this can be any spirit not just a spirit of man. You can cast the spell yourself and then transfer the sustaining of the spell to your bound spirit for a service.

Page 302 Spirit services section covers this in the core rules. The spirit of man gets a bonus power spell and casting it and sustaining it is covered by the Power Use service. Some GMs really dont like spirits casting and sustaining alot of buff spells and will dock you a service for the casting and a service for the sustaining but by RAW the sustaining is included in the original power use service.

It is also worth noting that the Spell sustaining service for a bound spirit is limited because it costs you a service every Force Combat turns. So its good to shed sustain spell penalties for combat but is not a long term solution. You can use Spellbinding for long term spell sustaining but it makes it very clear the spirits REALLY dont like this, and Street Grimoire goes into more detail on this and invites the GM to have spirits start messing with mages that regularly use the Spellbinding service. Some of this is wrapped up in the optional Astral Reputation rules but it at the very least gives the GM some ideas of how the spirits will start trying to make their displeasure known.

Marcus

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2066
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #21 on: (10:03:10/04-06-18) »
...so let me see if I have this right.

For my Mystic Adept Wednesday, who's tradition is Black Magic, when she summons a spirit of Man the spell that she would want sustained is the one she summons him with (for example Increase Charisma) correct?  Now does the spirit need to cast then sustain the spell on her or can she cast it herself and have the spirit sustain it?

Need to know if I am doing this right as playing a spellslinger isn't my strong point.

A spirit of man can cast it and sustain it, the best option.

Your character can cast it and have a spirit sustain it, a much worse option, as spirits hate doing this, and has much higher service cost.

*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

« Reply #22 on: (10:42:25/04-06-18) »

A spirit of man can cast it and sustain it, the best option.


And unless I'm missing something, the best option gets better in that the Spirit with an Innate Spell then de-manifests and sustains it unassailably from the Astral, hiding some place within Fx100m of the Conjurer.  You can't attack the spirit to end the sustained spell, and you can't attack the spell to end the sustained spell.  And the conjurer is not being penalized any dice or risked suffering any drain.

evilaustintom

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 21
« Reply #23 on: (16:00:21/04-12-18) »
...Force 6 is usually enough to hit the augmented limit, and if not the PC can use edge to ensure it does...

Don't forget...When you augment a stat, the force of the cast spell must equal or greater than the final stat.  So if you want to raise that street samurai's agility from 5 to 9, you need to cast the spell at force 9 or higher.
"Don't worry!  I'm your Candyman - we can make that happen..."

Sphinx

  • *
  • Troubleshooter
  • Omae
  • ****
  • Posts: 540
« Reply #24 on: (16:25:44/04-12-18) »
Don't forget...When you augment a stat, the force of the cast spell must equal or greater than the final stat.  So if you want to raise that street samurai's agility from 5 to 9, you need to cast the spell at force 9 or higher.

Not exactly. "The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected." (SR5 p.288). If you cast Increase Agility on a street samurai with a natural attribute of 5, already boosted to 7 with muscle replacement, then you need to cast the spell at Force 7 (the augmented value), and you can't raise the attribute higher than 9 (the +4 augmented maximum).

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2981
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
    • Moth's Mad Path
« Reply #25 on: (09:24:45/04-13-18) »
...Force 6 is usually enough to hit the augmented limit, and if not the PC can use edge to ensure it does...

Don't forget...When you augment a stat, the force of the cast spell must equal or greater than the final stat.  So if you want to raise that street samurai's agility from 5 to 9, you need to cast the spell at force 9 or higher.

A lot of people have this same misconception.  The Force must be the (Augmented) stat at the time of casting.  You are not expected to predict the outcome of your roll, nor is there any spell in the game that simply "fails" if you roll too high (while still being well-under the Force in hits).
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

evilaustintom

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 21
« Reply #26 on: (18:34:22/04-13-18) »
...Force 6 is usually enough to hit the augmented limit, and if not the PC can use edge to ensure it does...

Don't forget...When you augment a stat, the force of the cast spell must equal or greater than the final stat.  So if you want to raise that street samurai's agility from 5 to 9, you need to cast the spell at force 9 or higher.

A lot of people have this same misconception.  The Force must be the (Augmented) stat at the time of casting.  You are not expected to predict the outcome of your roll, nor is there any spell in the game that simply "fails" if you roll too high (while still being well-under the Force in hits).

That's a good way to look at it - the variability of successes on the spell roll.  I was playing a buffer previously - but I was bending over backwards to keep my magic high enough to cast those higher level spells for trolls.  Now I won't have to try so hard.

Thanks for the correction, folks!
"Don't worry!  I'm your Candyman - we can make that happen..."

kyoto kid

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 599
  • Bushido Cowgirl
« Reply #27 on: (22:36:28/04-15-18) »
...and thank you all for the clarification.  This is the second spell slinger I ever played (and I've been with SR since first edition) so still feeling my way though this.  ...remember when there were spell locks?

The only other options for sustaining buff spells so as not to negatively impact all skill tests are

1. Using Spell sustaining foci which must have the same rating as the spell being sustained (high cost in resources and karma to bond)
2. Initiating to learn the Quickening art and metamagic  (high initial Karma cost + Karma expenditure for each time it is done)
3. Spending 24 of your 25 build karma for rating 6 in Focused Concentration.

...remember when there were spell locks?
Forsaken daughter is watching you

ShadowcatX

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 573
« Reply #28 on: (23:32:24/04-15-18) »
...and thank you all for the clarification.  This is the second spell slinger I ever played (and I've been with SR since first edition) so still feeling my way though this.  ...remember when there were spell locks?

The only other options for sustaining buff spells so as not to negatively impact all skill tests are

1. Using Spell sustaining foci which must have the same rating as the spell being sustained (high cost in resources and karma to bond)
2. Initiating to learn the Quickening art and metamagic  (high initial Karma cost + Karma expenditure for each time it is done)
3. Spending 24 of your 25 build karma for rating 6 in Focused Concentration.

...remember when there were spell locks?

To be fair mages and mystic adepts are far and away the most powerful things in Shadowrun and buffing is extraordinarily powerful as is.

That said there are tricks. Focused concentration and sustaining foci can cheat on spell force through reagents for spells that care about successes rather than force (like armor).